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Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Letting this thread die just like Jagex's interest in PvP

Contents Page:

1.1 - Contents Page (You are here)
1.2 - Introduction
1.3 - Accessibility of PvP - Arenas
1.4 - Arenas cont.
1.5 - Further problems
1.6 - RNG
1.7 - RNG cont.
1.8 - RNG cont.
1.9 - Loot and Profit from PvP
1.10 - Items

2.1 - Phoenix necklaces
2.2 - Portents
2.3 - Numbing roots
2.4 - Gorajian mushrooms
2.5 - Overheads
2.6 - Overheads cont.
2.7 - Combat triangle
2.8 - Abilities - Metamorphosis and Reflect
2.9 - Abilities - Instinct, Shadow Tendrils, Wild Magic and Hurricane
2.10 - Abilities - Berserk, Damage ultimates

3.1 - Adrenaline system and channel abilities
3.2 - New mechanics and increasing the skillcap
3.3 - Multiway combat
3.4 - QoL updates
3.5 - Reserved
3.6 - Reserved
3.7 - Reserved
3.8 - Reserved
3.9 - Reserved
3.10 - Final words
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:15 - Last edited on 29-Dec-2015 01:45:32 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
With the recent release of Darkscape, one of the main contributors to RS3 PvP has left us. Now, whilst I'm sure that he'll be back one day to help out with the live game, his departure reinfornced the recent feelings I've had about Jagex and their treatment of PvP. They don't care. Simple as that. Instead of deciding to develop the main game and entice newer players, they've tried to fish for older, more nostalgic players on several occasions. I'll probably get criticised for saying that but it's my honest opinion. We have so few Mods working on PvP nowadays that I feel like nothing will ever get done. Either way though, this isn't a thread about me bashing on Jagex. It's about how to go about fixing PvP. Why you ask? Because PvP could be the best part of RS3; it just needs a little bit of tweaking to get there.

Now, I'm by no means expecting for Jagex to read this or listen to what I have to say (After all I have no qualifications in game development). But if they did then I'd tell them this: To get anywhere with PvP, it has to be made much more accessible than it currently is. Right now, the only options a player has in terms of PvP is the wilderness and a few minigames. With either of these options they're likely to go up against players who are much more skilled and capable than them at PvP. I've seen this happen time and time again and guess what happens? The newer player gets demotivated and gives up.
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:18 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2015 13:43:09 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
There's a few ways to approach this problem but I'll quickly highlight one way NOT to do it. Jagex seems to have this idea that lowering the skill cap is good for PvP and makes it more accessible for newer players. Although it can do that, it COMPLETELY ruins PvP for the older, more experienced players. Just look at what happened with the release of legacy. Tons of experienced PvPers quit because the system they enjoyed was dumbed down for the masses. Their skills were devalued and they felt like Jagex had just slapped them in the face. You might be thinking that this may have been offset by the introduction of newer players into PvP but the opposite happened. In fact, because Jagex hadn't completely lowered the skill cap, newer players were still discouraged from PvP by the more experienced players. Newer PvPers weren't entering the game any faster (Except for the original legacy hype) and the older Pkers had mostly left.

In my opinion, the easiest way to actually increase the accessibility of PvP for the average player is through an idea called the 'Arena' posted by Webster a while back. If you haven't read his thread, the PvP arena is essentially a SAFE PvP queueing system where players are matched against other players of similar level/skill (Determined by ELO ranking) and then proceed to fight them. The arena also provided other modes such as 2v2/3v3/4v4 arenas.
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:21 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2015 00:52:47 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Since the players are matched by skill/level it is perfect for anyone wanting to try out PvP. The arena provides them with a way of developing their PvP skills without having to go out into the wilderness and being destroyed by players who have been doing EoC PvP for years. Players are also rewarded for taking part in the arena and supplies are provided upon entry meaning that there are other incentives to the arena too, which may attract players who were not originally interested in PvP. Using the arena, the players could then rise up in rank, fighting against other more skilled players until they decide that they want to go out into the wilderness and fight on a level field against those experienced Pkers who would have destroyed them before. PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:23 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:43:52 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Now, although this idea would provide a way for more players to enter the PvP scene, this wouldn't be enough to fully fix PvP. Aside from the few bugs here and there, there are a few major things which need to be changed for the sake of making combat itself more balanced and enjoyable. After all, who would want to take part in PvP when the combat system is as broken and frustrating as it currently is. These things wouldn't necessarily be difficult to change but would all greatly impact how enjoyable PvP is. Here are the following things that would be changed:

RNG and its influence upon combat

Profit from PvP

Frustrating mechanics like overheads and channel abilities

Overpowered / Underpowered abilities with disproportionate costs

Certain items within PvP

The combat triangle
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:26 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:44:00 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Out of the 6 problems above, I'd say that RNG is the one which deserves the most attention. It can single handedly dictate the outcome of almost all fights and is the source of the unintuitive and frustrating gameplay. The effects of RNG can be attributed to two mechanics:

1. The hit-miss system
2. The damage ranges of abilities

When it comes to combat, I'm a firm believer that any actions the player makes should actually happen. There should be no degree of luck or chance to it; the actions a character takes should come directly from the player controlling it (There's a reason the player is taking part in PvP and not gambling money in a casino). And that's why I despise the combat system currently ingame. Although players can maximise their hit chances through gear, potions, etc., there's still a heavy amount of RNG which forces itself upon DPS and KO potential. Players literally have to rely on luck to kill people most of the time which is just plain silly. A players ability to KO should be based purely on skill instead (or at least have as little RNG involved as possible).
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:29 - Last edited on 12-Nov-2015 21:39:36 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
In my opinion, the best ways of resolving this issue is to replace the hit-miss system with a damage reduction – arm pen system. Essentially armour and defence level would contribute to damage reduction, a % which would directly lower incoming damage, whilst accuracy and attack level would contribute to arm pen, a % which would directly lower your opponent's damage reduction. The player would be given 100% accuracy on all abilities, however the DPS would remain similar to before as the increased damage reduction would lower it. Damage would become more consistent as abilities are guaranteed to hit (At the sake of dealing less damage) and thus there would be less luck involved in terms of KOing. Players would now instead have to time their abilities and if done correctly would be rewarded for it.

The system I'm suggesting could be developed in two ways:

1. Use the block chance from the current game and turn them into damage reduction values
2. Develop new formulas for Armour and Accuracy and use those for damage reduction values

The first option would obviously require a lot less effort as the values are already in game, although it would definitely lead to some imbalances. The second option however would require more effort to implement, although would allow for balance in the long term. At the end of the day it's up to the developers which system they'd prefer to implement, although as a player who doesn't want broken content, I'd obviously prefer the second one (As I'm sure you would). The system could also be applied to PvM although that's up for Jagex to decide on – personally I think this should be done because PvM can often have the same RNG based problems as PvP does. This system however would not be enough to completely solve the RNG issues with combat.
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:32 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:44:20 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Currently an ability can do anywhere from 20-100% of the damage stated on the tooltip, e.g. 38-188% with d breath. This means that 5 minimum hit abilities are equivalent to a maximum hit which. The effects of the damage range won't usually be noticeable over time as the damage averages out, but much like the hit-miss system, it can influence the outcome of short encounters quite drastically. The hit ranges definitely need to be reduced so as to provide a more skilled base to PvP. Abilities should do what they are meant to do, not a small percentage of what they're capable of doing. Also, despite the fact that the wide damage ranges can keep players entertained, them being lowered doesn't necessarily mean that this aspect won't be conserved.

An example of a possible damage range could be 90-110% where damage varies by ±10% across the average. Obviously this leads to a higher average than before but the idea is that the amount by which damage varies should be as low as possible. If DPS were to be kept similar to current levels, then a range of 55-65% could be suitable. This concept should also be applied to abilities like Wild Magic, although they may have slightly larger variances considering their design. The rework of RNG will be crucial for the development of Runescape in the long-run, especially for any competitive environment like PvP and PvM. Fights should always come down to the skills of the individual rather than how lucky they are.
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:32 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:44:28 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Although the mechanics of combat can be extremely frustrating, there are other parts of PvP which can ruin the experience. A prime example of this is the current state of looting within the Wilderness and other dangerous PvP. With the release of items such as royal d'hide, batwing and darts, the average risk of players has definitely been on the decline over the past 2 years. This combined with the inflation of supplies (Mainly rocktails and brews) has devalued the levels of profit for PvP. Personally, I don't even pick up half the loot I get and instead usually look for brews or other potions. Your enemies supplies should not contribute to most of your profit.

The value of drops need to be increased. I see two ways of doing this:

1. Reinstate a similar drop system to bounty hunter
2. Give players a currency when players get a kill which could be spent on a variety of items (Like the osrs emblems)

Obviously if new drops are added to PvP, anti-farming mechanics should be put in place to prevent them being abused. Otherwise, I think either idea would definitely help to balance profit from PvP as long as implemented correctly. Right now the only way to profit from PvP is to either lure, smite someone or kill someone in high risk (Which is rare) and this just isn't right. Players should be able to make money consistently from PvP assuming they are skilled enough.
PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:32 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:44:37 by Ragger

Ragger
May Member 2018

Ragger

Posts: 1,327Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Aside from the issues with RNG explained above, there are also other problems with combat such as the recent decline in KO potential. Those who Pked pre-legacy may remember how much easier it was to kill people. This isn't necessarily because stuns were better back then or that people were less experienced but more due to the introduction of several new items. These items can often dictate the outcomes of fights as they allow players to vastly increase their healing or lower the damage they take. These items aren't necessarily overpowered but when stacked together can make players practically impossible to kill. The most problematic ones are: phoenix necklaces, portents, numbing roots and gorajian mushrooms. PvP | New PvP ELO Arena | PvP changes feedback < MODS PLEASE DONT READ THIS AND BREAK PVP EVEN MORE

11-Nov-2015 22:33:33 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2015 22:44:45 by Ragger

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