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Empyrean Citadel:Your Thoughts

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Mod Raven

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Disclaimer: This is a TAPP project and is therefore not even remotely guaranteed to make it into the game. It is something I will be working on periodically and therefore it's going to take a fairly long time to develop.

Also this thread will likely contain spoilers for Sliske's Endgame and previous conent,
you have been fairly warned.


---------------

Hey guys,

One of the most requested content changes I get is for Armadyl to reclaim the Empyrean Citadel. Following the results of Sliske's Endgame (and if I'm honest, before even that) it makes little sense for Sliske to still be in possession of said location. So I decided that I would give this a look during TAPP whilst the Endgame Replayability is with QA.

So, what is the point of this thread?


I want your input.

It's not enough to just swap some NPCs around, I want to get a sense of the identity you want the citadel to have and an idea of any activities you think should take place there.

Should it be a social space? Where armadyleans can gather together and debate issues of morality and justice?

Should it be a place of quiet contemplation?

Should it be a raucous aviansie party?

What do YOU think it should be?


Things to remember.


*
No new graphics
- I am not a graphics artist and it is unlikely I will be able to source new graphical assets. So try and think of content that uses existing graphical assets.
* There's only one of me - I will be working on this alone, so try not to push for some massive piece of content which I will not be able to deliver.
* No Rite of Passage - This is not Rite of Passage and is not a replacement for it. Please see the rite of passage thread in the future updates forum for further discussion on that proposed quest.
* I love me some lore - Try and give me an excuse to write some lore here and there, opportunities to expand on the aviansie culture and society will enthuse me.
* This will not be the best in slot of anything - As this is a TAPP project of niche use, I don't want this to become an overly powerful training method for anything. Some training method is fine, but it should be aimed towards fun and enjoyable, rather than powerful (I am not convinced the two are mutually exclusive).
* This CAN be niche - Don't try and make this the place for everyone ever. It shouldn't be. This is a TAPP project in my own personal time, so it doesn't matter if it's not for everyone. I would rather make something that a few people would love, than everyone would tolerate.

I'll be periodically checking this thread and trying to keep the discussion going whilst I do some prelim stuff. I will update the topic focus below periodically and would ask that you check on that when you visit the thread.

= Raven =

---------------

Current Topic Focus


Closed Ecosystem


By which I mean, I want to start thinking about a number of different skills (preferably simple things) that help one another to advance the overall gameplay of the place. Think of Herblore Habitat, where you use farming to summon the jadinkos, which you then hunt in order to get the potion ingredients, which can then be used to further enhance farming... etc.

I think this could be a really fun angle to go down, both design wise and creativity wise. So I want you to think about that.

But before we can design it, I want you to think about this:

Which skills should we use?

27-Apr-2017 09:00:42 - Last edited on 24-May-2017 17:01:41 by Mod Raven

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Cheers for your input Colifin. I'm not sure I agree that there's no room for more lore here, whilst we did get a bit more Armadyl lore in Endgame, we also got a bunch more lore for the other gods as well. Most of the other gods also have a lot more previous lore as well, so as far as gods go I think Armadyl is still the least expanded.

I'm less keen on the agility course idea, because that moves us into the best in slot category. For agility courses it's rarely something that can just be for fun, because of the nature of agility training. However, if you have ideas that would make it interesting without it being overpowered, I am all ears. :)

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:19:22

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Deathcrezt5 said:
I'm not really well versed in the history of the aviansies, but what if in the council room(?) we have a bunch of high classed aviansies( like army generals, political figures and the such) discussing stuff in the room, possibly with the ability to learn some more history about the species, or how Sliske took over the fort.


Are people confused at how Sliske overtook an abandoned fort? Is it really worth expanding on?

When you say discussing, do you mean just incidental dialogue, or would you want this to be some sort of activity?

Deathcrezt5 said:
As for training methods, possibly having some form of combat xp daily? Something similar to the Hefin agility posts, but relevant to combat.


Does combat really need such a method? How would you expect it to work?

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:25:59

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The Aviansie said:
A really big ask and I understand if it is not possible but a spot eventually for an armadyl D&D statue that will eventually be incorporated into the D&D but for now it could just be a plinth


I suspect I will have to dismiss this idea now as it will require graphics assets that I do not have and I cannot promise a statue spot in the future. If I can find a graphics artist, with some free time, I shall take another look though.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:29:12

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Amascut said:
I admit, I'd prefer a small-scale quest about reclaiming the Citadel itself, but this is absolutely the next best thing and I'll take it in a heartbeat.


How small scale could I get away with here? Something along the lines of a Tales style miniquest? I might be able to do something like that and it not take a hundred thousand years. :D

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:41:57

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Hot Sola Aoi said:
As for the cit itself, there could be some aviansies which will act as an extra spot for killing aviansies. A spot for people to kill aviansies without killing spiritual creatures.


You want to reclaim the citadel for Armadyl so that you can slaughter his followers?

Does that not strike you as odd? :P

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:53:07

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A reminder guys:

No new graphics


I know it's a massive restriction and super lame, but I also know that I am not a graphics artist and therefore my ability to create new artwork is spectacularly limited.

Some things may have to depend on the setup of the citadel, such as removing the masks. I need to investigate before I can confirm whether such is doable.

However cosmetic overrides are pretty much right out already I'm afraid.

Titles are a possibility, so feel free to suggest them, but other appearance changes (except maybe a temporary transmog into an aviansie) are out.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 09:56:57

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Heads up.

I am currently working on an outline for a bit of a miniquest for this. Something tales like, so don't expect anything heavy or time consuming. Wouldn't be much, but should help with the feel of reclaiming it, rather than just finding it reclaimed, if you see the difference. :)

For obvious reasons I'm going to keep the details of said miniquest secret, but wanted you to know I've taken that feedback on. :)

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 10:05:26

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Random idea:

The court of Armadyl

Periodically criminals are brought in to the citadel to be judged. The player acts as inquisitor and judge and must determine the fate of the criminal. Cases should not be black and white, as true justice is a tricky thing to find.

The classic "is the thief who stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family really deserving of imprisonment?" and so forth.

Would predominantly be just a repeatable bit of story content and to encourage those present to discuss the case before giving judgement. Could even be a group activity where the judgement is given by committee and tallied up across all the players who participate.

Assuming no XP/physical rewards, would anyone be interested in this?

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 10:12:38

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Tweaked the title to prevent clan confusion. :)

Unsure about the overrides, there's already a method for most of them and those that can't be obtained feel like they should be left as a badge of honour for those who where there.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 10:34:34

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Paladine said:

No rewards? Not really. I think it'll be like Botany Bay - dead.


I am completely and totally fine with this being exceptionally niche content. It's why I'm TAPPing it, rather than putting it behind a proper budget.

---

Thought on the court cases.

Would anyone be interested in writing court cases? Similar to what we've done with Menaphos and the library. I'd need to set up the mechanism for how you'd submit them, but anyone could write an interesting moral dilemma and send them in. :)

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 10:49:14

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Kakamile said:
ok, so if you're committed to those ideas then a miniquest and justice minigame and god throne room and clan interaction content is too much for one area, but I really like the idea of driving more inter-clan activity. Portals and communal games keep being shoved into an untraveled area away from social hubs, I really think allowing players to help their clan (clan plots) while talking to other clans can help inspire more inter-clan fights again.


Given that this would likely be locked behind Endgame at this point, it seems unlikely that it would be much help for clans.

I'm not committed to any ideas currently, everything suggested (including reclaiming the citadel itself) is removable if people would prefer not to have it.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:10:01

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Manks said:
Would it be possible to set it on a rotation? So you aren't limiting it to one "feel" while giving reason to return there multiple times without need of an exp reward.

For example, on some days they're discussing important lore topics. Another they're bringing in wounded Aviansies and caring for the last of their people. And one day a week dedicating it to remembering the fallen?


In theory, yes, but remember it's just me working on it in TAPP so the more complex we make it the exponentially longer it would take to create.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:11:27

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So a question on the guardians.

Do you need them to be physically present?

I could write a series of letters and journals and so forth, which would require no new graphics? Alternatively if you need someone present I could cheat and use existing kit to represent it.

I have a few plans for the Guardians and it could be fun to reference them a bit.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:22:23

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So following the discussion I've seen on here a bit, I have changed the focus for the thread.

Current Topic Focus


Rewards
- Assuming no new graphics and nothing best in slot, what rewards might you suggest for participating in the activities here. Remember this should not be "the bestest training method evar" for content as the current goal seems to be to make this a fun social place, rather than a training activity.

Consider:
* Would lore drops be enough?
* What titles would you want?
* Does the reward have to be XP/Money related?

27-Apr-2017 11:29:23

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Elf of Seren said:
I'd be fine with reusing old models if there were only one or two of them. Admittedly, I'm kind of obsessed with Armacus from the old God Letters, and have been waiting for an in-game replacement for Idria, so I'm a bit biased.


So, there's every chance I wouldn't use Armacus. I have a new Guardian character that I would like to use because there is a story associated with them that admittedly won't be told til much later.

That said "Armacus" looks like a potential title, rather than a name, as it is clearly a derivative of Armadyl.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:35:54

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Wise Will said:
Would you consider placing a bank chest upon the very top, so that we can skill with an epic view in NXT?

Thank you


Yes, I will consider adding a bank chest. :)

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:36:36

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Elf of Seren said:
Mod Raven said:

That said "Armacus" looks like a potential title, rather than a name, as it is clearly a derivative of Armadyl.

= Raven =


Wait. By title do you mean like an official title that an individual or group member's hold, like CEO, or Cardinal, or something (not necessarily the exact equivalent of those examples).

(thx for humoring me) :P


An official title probably. Or a nickname.

Perhaps Armacus translates as "Armadyl's chosen" or "Armadyl's Sword" etc. Or perhaps they started saying Armadyl's name during a prayer but stubbed their toe and swore loudly halfway through, so their nickname is now Arma-cuss.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:53:33

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Avernic said:
Maybe a reward idea? An item, much like the Skull of Rememberance, that when used on other specific items or landmarks, gives a chunk of Armadyl insight on them. Could be a fun way to deliver lore and get people together in the first few days to hunt it all down. :)


Hrmm, so a sort of easter egg detector? Interesting idea.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 11:58:51

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Gxsnumanumas said:
The first thing that comes to mind is something similar to the Ravensworn title, so a lot of birds that spawn on a pattern and give some Armadyl themed title would be neat and create a bit of a community dedicated to the citadel.


Hrmmm.... some sort of ridiculous easter egg you say? Hrmmmmm.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 14:54:46

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Wahisietel said:
Honestly, I'd be personally more interested in other Sliske's Endgame post-quest content not related to Armadyl, since he already got a bunch of lore in the quest itself. Such as updating the dialogue of characters who still refer to Sliske as alive and his game as ongoing, like Wahisietel, Kara-Meir, Seren, Zaros, ect. This proposed update would take care of Janus at least.


I'll be blunt here, this TAPP project is to give myself a break from Endgame. Endgame has taken up a GREAT deal of my personal time since it's inception and has cost me a bunch of stuff personally. So I need a bit of a break from it. Which is why I'm looking at this and not continuing to focus on Endgame.

I do intend to try and fix some of the Endgame hangups such as PQ dialogue (and have done a little with the replayability off in QA) but I humbly request that for my own sanity I am allowed a brief respite before going back to full Endgame content (note that this citadel only needs to reference in passing Endgame, beyond that they're unrelated).

That said, this proposed TAPP project has been asked for by several members of the lore community since even before Endgame (I had a discussion with several people, not just the aviansie crew, at RuneFest last year) and so it seems that there is definitely a place for it.

So don't see this as an Endgame related update, see it as an update that references Endgame. If you see the difference.

Also note that Armadyl has had a bit more content, but actual Armadylean content is still fairly light on the ground. So I hardly think adding any more is unreasonable.

Wahisietel said:
I'd be most interested in resolving the storylines that Endgame kind of ignored, such as those of the Strange Old Man and Akrisae. While Akrisae being added to the quest itself is a start, I'd ideally like to see Akrisae the Doomed added as an NPC in Falador Castle after the quest, with it being explained that Saradomin brought him back from the maze with him. Strange Old Man just needs post-quest dialogue to explain who the hell he is.


I actually disagree here.

Akrisae may have his moment again in future content, but right now we know that the Barrows Brothers (and sister) are coming to terms with their new existence. They're undead, but they are free. It's highly unlikely that anyone in Falador would welcome such a creature into their midst, so for now they stay in the Barrows. In future they may leave, but for now there's no need to.

As for the Strange Old Man, I personally feel that if we are to answer his question (i.e Who Is He?) then we should do so with an interesting storyline, rather than just announce it in dialogue. Not all questions should be answered. Sometimes the mystery and theorising is better than knowing.

If that makes sense?

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 15:37:18 - Last edited on 27-Apr-2017 15:41:37 by Mod Raven

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Tetsu Talon said:
I'm curious, how do we end up getting all these human adventurers up to the Citadel? Surely they don't all have an invitation box.


I'm going to investigate having a portal or something at the top of Armadyl's tower. Connecting the two locations feels nice to me.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 15:46:29

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Wahisietel said:
@Raven Okay, fair enough, understandable that you want time away from Sliske for a bit, I feel the same way.

But why not use your TAPP to develop the highly anticipated content that we have all been excitedly waiting for with bated breath...

Musical Raids?


I need to up my combat game a bit more with that one, but it is most certainly not forgotten. That one also needs a bit of graphics budget, which is not available yet, so I'm working on something that doesn't need graphics. ;)

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 16:52:45

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Rondstat said:
Combat is fine (I could absolutely see defeating Kree as a valid step in a miniquest. Defeating, say, Arraxi - not so much). Wilderness is fine, but we should NOT be teleported there, and any Wildy combat encounters should be fairly low-damage, so we don't need a lot of gear and can feasibly one-item it.


I'm seeing it purely as a run there, do a thing, leave, affair.

= Raven =

27-Apr-2017 16:56:53

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Hey guys,

Some good responses here, I'm just going to remind everyone of this though:

No new graphics


A repeated suggestion I'm seeing is for an agility course. It's worth noting that an agility course is basically ALL OF THE GRAPHICS and needs a lot of animation, which I do not have (and couldn't replicate).

So I'm afraid that I'm just going to have to rule that out right now, because there's no way I can reasonably do it justice. Sorry.

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 08:37:44

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Current Topic Focus


Skilling Activity
- Many people have suggested some sort of skilling activity for the citadel. What activity do you suggest? What skill needs love?

Remember:
* No new graphics - So please do not suggest an agility course
* This should not be the best training method for anything, merely something to do whilst you're being social.
* Please avoid daily/weekly/monthly requirements. I do not want to contribute any further to dailyscape.

28-Apr-2017 08:39:56

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For the farming patch, it would make sense for it to be permanently protected by Brassica. But it would also only make sense if it were a vegetable patch. Given vegetable patches are low level, would this be something people would find interesting, or is it effectively useless?

Maybe it can have an xp boost for growing cabbages. Nothing awe inspiring, but thematically fun.

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 10:59:20

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Elf of Seren said:
Mod Raven said:
For the farming patch, it would make sense for it to be permanently protected by Brassica. But it would also only make sense if it were a vegetable patch. Given vegetable patches are low level, would this be something people would find interesting, or is it effectively useless?

Maybe it can have an xp boost for growing cabbages. Nothing awe inspiring, but thematically fun.

= Raven =


What if it was afk farming training? Like it's special cabbage (so it uses one of the new cabbage textures) blessed by Brassica, or something, and we basically just prune it. It could be either really low xp, or have a cap like Hefin Posts. You could take the animation from harvesting berries on Tuai Leit.


I'm generally not a fan of encouraging more AFK training methods. I would much prefer people interact with the game rather than simply have it open and check it once in a while as they watch netflix.

Can you think of ways to enjoy this without it being AFK?

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 11:27:07

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Helring said:
Brassica gives you special bags to collect cabbage in (graphically using the same model as current bags)? When you pick a cabbage from a cabbage patch like the one south of fally, it automatically goes in the bag. Can turn in the bags for a reasonable amount of farm exp from Brassica. This way its not an afk method, but is a way that people can keep training farming between farm runs?


Hrmm so some sort of way of getting value out of low level patches whilst you're on your farming runs? Conceptually I quite like it, but I'd need to check with the balancing guys.

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 11:47:49

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Lady Ria said:
I do agree with the idea that a Brassica protected patch would thematically make sense. If it gave extra xp to cabbages, that'd be fun. I also think the cabbages should grow bigger. No extra details, just upsize the models a bit.

I do think it's important (if possible) the citadel isn't instanced away from Players who haven't completed Endgame. They won't have access to the banks or see the npcs but they should be able to be on the same instance as people who can.

For roleplayers, we do use the Empyrean Citadel already reclaimed by Armadyleans, and having half of us who did Endgame now unable to interact with the half who haven't is a no-go.


It's likely going to need to be an instance I'm afraid. Too big a change of footprint to allow.

It's possible that the requirement to begin could simply be that the player has reclaimed their boon from Sliske though. Tweak the dialogue a bit depending on endgame progress.

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 13:29:33

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Snart said:
I dont think people would go there to skill if it didnt have any benefits like best exp rates or some items only gained there. Maybe only if you did some afk skillplots to a skill that isnt usually afk or a free training method to a buyable like the harps.


I'm not terribly concerned if this doesn't have a constant footflow of traffic. This is largely intended to be a social hub for those that want it, with a bit of a benefit for spending time there. I'm not interested in making it be the place to be. This is why I am doing it in my TAPP and not pushing this as an official part of the release schedule.

My goal is somewhere fun, sociable and interesting. Rather than a place where people will feel the need to grind out the content.

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 13:49:57

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Random reward thought (there has been no effort of balancing on this whatsoever):

A chance for your normal farming patches to produce enhanced cabbages. These cabbages could offer faintly different benefits and perhaps a small buff to skilling representing Brassica's divine favour.

E.g: An invisible level boost to hunter (because of the alluring smell of roasted cabbage).

Is that too daft? Would you be interested in effectively unlocking a chance for something to randomly spawn?

= Raven =

28-Apr-2017 13:52:37

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Hey guys,

Some good ideas here. I really like the woodcutting idea of alternative uses for birds eggs, that's a lovely idea. I'll need to think about what they could convert into, but it's a nice idea.

Some other things of note that I shall address here:-

Brassica Prime


I realise some people have a bee in their bonnet about our delicious deity, so rather than continue the back and forth I'm going to end this discussion by using J mod fiat and say that Brassica will NOT be removed.

However, to be clear, he will not be the focus of the rewards or the content. He'll get to sit in the citadel so his dialogue remains and I might add a bit of a vegetably based bonus in there if I have the time. But he will not be the main focus.

Scope


Just a friendly reminder to remember that there is only one person working on this and that person is working during their TAPP time (one day a fortnight) and even then it is likely that person will be dragged off to other priorities periodically. So scale appropriately.

Using existing skilling methods (an anvil, bank chest, etc) isn't too time consuming and therefore not unreasonable to expect.

Crafting an agility course requires graphics AND a lot of animation fiddling. So it's pretty much out.

Likewise a series of elaborate D&Ds is also unlikely.

Try and keep your ideas simple and functional where possible. :)

New Gear


I'm not a huge fan of gear that improves drop tables. I realise the suggested bonuses so far have been niche, but I can see the direction they head and I'm less keen. I'd also, thematically, like to focus on rewards that promote peace and unity, rather than bloodshed.

----

Topic Focus


Not actually a change, but I'd like to bring the thread back to this.

I want you to think of some simple activities that you can do in the area, or consider other areas of content that we could give a niche use to following this update.

The woodcutting suggestion with the birds nests is a lovely example of this. Could we think of other areas where we could take forgotten content and give it a little boost?

= Raven =

02-May-2017 09:23:48 - Last edited on 02-May-2017 10:07:00 by Mod Raven

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I'm always dubious of bringing combat changes (such as a new staff and an improved spell) into a TAPP project as they take a bunch of balancing to get right and I'm not one of the combat council guys.

However, I do like the idea of finding an alternative use for the armadyl runes. I'm not sure the "cast any spell" is the right way to go, but I am very much open to the idea of other ideas.

Is there a niche skilling spell we could create? Could these runes in some way be used as part of a minigame?

Any thoughts?

= Raven =

03-May-2017 17:24:08

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Ok. So there's a few possible ideas for armadyl runes. Not entirely convinced any of them would actually be worth the effort of gathering the runes for yet, so feel free to keep them coming.

Instead I'd like to go back to general skilling/activity ideas.

However, I want to focus on this concept:

Group Activities


I would like you to have a think about things that you can do as a community, that work with the armadylean ideals. I would like this to be a bit of a social hub, so think of things you can do together towards some sort of goal.

Are there fun games you could play? Perhaps hide and seek with aviansie children (unlikely because I don't think I can get any kid graphics, but hey). Are there special events you could be part of? E.g protect an aviansie priest performing a ritual as some wights turn up.

Really have a think about things you could do here. Think niche and think of activities that encourage cooperation and friendly communication without turning into shouting matches if someone is not up to snuff.

Also, please
DO NOT SUGGEST AN AGILITY COURSE
. ;)

= Raven =

05-May-2017 11:43:00

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Hey guys,

I'm going to shy away from the clan capping idea, I know it's been raised a few times.

Clan code is a little complex and certainly not my area of expertise and if I attempt it it would eat into the potential content here a disproportionate amount. Also it kinda goes against the idea of having a clan citadel if you never directly interact with it. ;)

I'll try and give more useful feedback on other ideas when I have a moment, but wanted to stall the clan discussions now as I'm unlikely to be able to do much with them in my TAPP time. I know there are other people thinking about clan improvements, so I'll leave it to them rather than as part of this idea. ;)

= Raven =

09-May-2017 11:49:02

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Cinder Quill said:
Mod Raven said:
Hey guys,

I'm going to shy away from the clan capping idea, I know it's been raised a few times.

Clan code is a little complex and certainly not my area of expertise and if I attempt it it would eat into the potential content here a disproportionate amount. Also it kinda goes against the idea of having a clan citadel if you never directly interact with it. ;)

I'll try and give more useful feedback on other ideas when I have a moment, but wanted to stall the clan discussions now as I'm unlikely to be able to do much with them in my TAPP time. I know there are other people thinking about clan improvements, so I'll leave it to them rather than as part of this idea. ;)

= Raven =


Ahh okay. That's fair enough :) how about the idea of making it a shard world with the potential of moving Clan camp there from falador though at the least? :) I know the location has been modified several times already, but really needs consolidation, so having a 'clan recruitment hub ' on a shard world would be immensely helpful particularly with a Lodestone! you could use the divine focus as an entry point.


I don't think this is the right update for clan improvements at all. Remember that this will be quest locked, potentially behind Endgame, which will make it an inefficient hub for clan activity.

Clans are not forgotten, but this isn't the update that will improve them.

= Raven =

09-May-2017 15:50:13

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A Mighty said:
Hey Raven,

I'm a bit late to this thread (Ok, more than a bit) and I can't read through it all. But what I want to know is whether or not this will require the endgame? You mentioned in your OP that it would make sense for this to happen before the endgame takes place, and I don't want one of the only areas for Armadyleans (and perhaps even containing Armadyl himself) to be locked behind grandmaster content.. (again, sorry if this is brought up somewhere else. Thanks!)


Potentially.

This is something I am looking into. It may not necessarily require it, but it would currently make the most narrative sense.

= Raven =

09-May-2017 16:59:16

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A Mighty said:
^Raven is also said to be working on an Aviansie L&H. Perhaps part of that could end up there as well...

(@Raven: What's the status on that?)


I have an idea for it, but I've not had a chance to sit down and write it due to other commitments.

11-May-2017 14:29:03

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No agility courses, please, I beg you all, stop, stop suggesting them. :P

Ranged activities could be interesting, they certainly fit the aviansie themeatically. What could you suggest?

= Raven =

11-May-2017 14:43:58

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So I like the idea of combining ranged with another skill, but I'm not sold on divination because it doesn't quite make sense (you're shooting energy, wut?).

What about Ranged + Hunter?

Could you work effectively be trained as an aviansie youth and taught how to hunt? Shooting down flying critters to feed the tribe? Net you a little ranged and a little hunter xp?

How could we make that gameplay interesting?

I want you to have a think about lean forward gameplay (active) that you could enjoy in short bursts, rather than grinding.

I'm leaning towards attempting a bunch of periodic activities to do whilst you're waiting for your friends to arrive. This seems to be something that a lot of you are interested in as well. Something to help pass the time and be social, rather than to become a new training method.

Some other things I'm going to investigate:

* Handing in bird eggs from their nests for a small bonus of some kind.
* Lore drops and character interactions.
* The justice of Armadyl (specific court cases to be discussed by players).
* A cabbage patch.
* Allowing portables.
* A bank chest.

I'd like to focus on small activities that could be fun along side this. Stuff to make it all feel alive, rather than as a new training hub.

= Raven =

11-May-2017 16:27:53

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AttilaSquare said:
Another idea. I don't think this has been done, but if you want people to come back for lore, you could create an Armadylean calendar. On certain days or during certain weeks, certain cases are discussed. That would lead to regular gatherings and conversations in the citadel.


That was my intention for the cases, have them spread out over long periods of time and appearing periodically. The idea would be for players to debate the case amongst themselves, rather than just interact with an NPC.

It would be really nice to have people debating justice with one another.

= Raven =

11-May-2017 17:08:18

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Lopendebank3 said:
Would this then be some form of J-mod content or is it something else then?


Not sure what you mean by "J Mod content".

My current thinking is to create a timed release system that will update with a new case every X amount of time (not making it a weekly, the time could be random or only started when someone starts it for everyone, still considering this).

The new case will be presented, with NPCs giving their version of the facts and the defendant having a number of questions open. There's another system I could potentially use here to make it more dynamic, but I'm holding off on mentioning that now in case it makes it too complicated.

Players will then be able to give their decision to an NPC, potentially Armadyl himself, and that decision will be stored. The case will remain open for X amount of time before being brought to a close, during that time players can change their decisions.

When the time is up, the collective judgement of the players will be given to the defendant and Armadyl will determine his sentence.

Some small reward will be given for taking part, with perhaps a bonus reward for the decision that Armadyl considers the most just, regardless of the majority decision.

That's my super super super vague plan so far. I have done ZERO balancing or detailed design considerations yet. ;)

Lopendebank3 said:
And how would lore drops work?


I'd likely want them to be part of whatever activities we create for the citadel. I haven't considered much more than that at this stage.

= Raven =

12-May-2017 08:48:19

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Nice stuff there AttilaSquare, you've clearly put a lot of thought into this.

I'd prefer the debates to be over actual cases though, rather than history. I think the emotive, personal angle can really affect justice and our perception of it.

E.g a thief steals from a shop. Is easy to determine, the thief is bad. But the thief who stole a stale loaf of bread to feed his starving children, is (admittedly the most cliche case ever) a bit trickier. Where does justice fall?

I'll have a more detailed look through your stuff though, see how some of it lines up with the history I have already written. ;)

= Raven =

12-May-2017 16:47:31

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Hey guys,

I'd like to get you thinking about gameplay again. I'd quite like to try out a bit of a design exercise, see if you guys can work together to come up with a fun activity to do at the citadel. To make life easier, below are the core aims:-

* This must be a Cooking related activity.
* The player should be looking to do this only to break monotony, rather than as core training.
* There needs to be no new graphics.
* The player should unlock lore along the way.


Try and work with each other on the idea, so that there is one uniform vision at the end, rather than a bunch of disparate ideas. I'll pop in periodically to help steer you and offer advice.

Disclaimer: The update you come up with is in no way guaranteed to go into the game and I reserve the right to change it drastically if I do implement it.


= Raven =

16-May-2017 11:30:16

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Avernic said:
Alright not sure if we're going for purely Cooking here, but I'm thinking that the only thing worth cooking for Avianse high up in the sky is going to be insects, so what if we paired Hunter into the activity. Players could have to find where the swarm of bugs are located throughout the Citadel (which changes up every so often) and when they're done with the active gameplay they can hang around a cauldron, slowly mixing in what they caught with the option to socialize.

I'm not exactly sure where lore fits into this, other than maybe finding scrolls the swarms had stolen or maybe an avianse recounts stories in the kitchen while you stir the cauldron. The only assets you really need are a stirring animation (from Swept Away) and a bug swarm (just use Harpie Bug Swarms, no one kills those anyways so they won't notice :p)


So a sort of hide and seek with bugs, or more of a hunter tracking style affair? How could people see this working?

= Raven =

16-May-2017 14:23:55

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Thought:

What about some sort of defensive role in the catching? To encourage group play? We know Armadyl was once the defender of the tob'it nests on Abbinah, could players replicate that role?

What are the advantages and drawbacks of such a gameplay element?

= Raven =

16-May-2017 17:00:56

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Hey guys,

On Fayre items coming up to the Citadel


No.

The point of doing this update is to add in some new lore and to create a social space that helps to provide more backstory and lore to one of the least developed of the religious factions in game. It's also a personal project, so I need an excuse to flex my writing, design and development fingers a bit (and any other devs I coopt into this). Adding the fayre up there achieves neither of these goals and doesn't make much themeatical sense. So I am nixing this idea now, please do not press this idea further.

On giving the citadel to another faction


I don't think this is the right place for that. This citadel works as an Armadylean piece of content, if we are going to expand on it. It has a history with him and it makes sense lorewise as to why he would reclaim it and why the aviansie would use it.

Other factions also already have their own spaces, more so than Armadyl, with admittedly perhaps the exception of Sliske.
But given that Sliske has been defeated now, there is less of an impetus to give him more screentime. He's also had a bunch of quests, whereas Armadyl has only really been a side character.


On the subject of Arc berries


I'm loathe to lock any content behind the Arc for this, but I do like the idea of using unused items to enhance the Aviansie food for a bonus. Perhaps we could apply this logic to all surface world berries, give you a reason to gather them and use them up a bit?

Actually I'd really like to get people thinking about ways we could use "junk" items for an advantage here. Some reason to get rid of the billions of useless items you have in your banks just from general gaming.

= Raven =

18-May-2017 08:38:15

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Bloodcount said:
Do you really want this "Bastion of Justice" to become a giant slayer hotspot?


This here is why I'm not planning to create murderable aviansie in the citadel. As well as it being a place of peace. :P

= Raven =

19-May-2017 09:07:11

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Hey all,

Some good ideas here, cheers. I'm not going to reply to all of them, but I have noted stuff down and will look into what I can reasonably do in a sensible time frame.

I do have a question though. Where's all the talk of war coming from? The gods are pretty much in a stalemate at the moment and there's never been any talk of a war on Abbinah. I'm wondering where this came from.

There's still place for refuges of course, Abbinah is still a swirling maelstrom of destruction, but war isn't really a thing for the aviansie right now unless I've forgotten something important (it's Monday morning, this is not terribly unlikely).

= Raven =

22-May-2017 11:46:52

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Mattila22 said:
Mod Raven said:


I do have a question though. Where's all the talk of war coming from? The gods are pretty much in a stalemate at the moment and there's never been any talk of a war on Abbinah. I'm wondering where this came from.


Probably still about the fight over the godsword going on in god wars dungeon.


Hrmm, that's a special case I think and I wouldn't be expecting refugees to come from there (since that would logically empty the god wars dungeon and we clearly don't want that.).

= Raven =

22-May-2017 13:10:37

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Deltaslug said:
Mod Raven said:
Hey all,

Some good ideas here, cheers. I'm not going to reply to all of them, but I have noted stuff down and will look into what I can reasonably do in a sensible time frame.

I do have a question though. Where's all the talk of war coming from? The gods are pretty much in a stalemate at the moment and there's never been any talk of a war on Abbinah. I'm wondering where this came from.

There's still place for refuges of course, Abbinah is still a swirling maelstrom of destruction, but war isn't really a thing for the aviansie right now unless I've forgotten something important (it's Monday morning, this is not terribly unlikely).

= Raven =


The gods are in a stalemate, mortals are not:
- GWD1
- GWD2
- Chaos Dwarf Battlefield
- Gnome-Khazard Battlefield
- Kinshra-White Knight (even though it isn't very public)
- Troll-Burthrope (stalemated, but still there)
- Gang war in Pollinveach

Still haven't gotten into the machinations of Xau-Tak, the Dragonkin, and a few others ....

And you still have the militant members of each faction (ie: Kara-Meir)

And conflict, in itself, is a core philsophy of Bandosians and Zamorakians.


Ah I see, so you're expecting human refugees here. I was thinking purely in terms of aviansie, who can only be found in the first of those examples (which is discussed earlier).

That helps clear things up a bit.

= Raven =

22-May-2017 17:06:29

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Hey guys,

So I want to go back to the skilling ideas. This time round I've had a chat with Timbo and I've had an idea I want to get you thinking about.

Closed Ecosystem


By which I mean, I want to start thinking about a number of different skills (preferably simple things) that help one another to advance the overall gameplay of the place. Think of Herblore Habitat, where you use farming to summon the jadinkos, which you then hunt in order to get the potion ingredients, which can then be used to further enhance farming... etc.

I think this could be a really fun angle to go down, both design wise and creativity wise. So I want you to think about that.

But before we can design it, I want you to think about this:

Which skills should we use?


They don't necessarily need to be obvious, e.g woodcutting, firemaking and fletching. Try and think of three skills that need a bit of love that you feel would fit the armadylean theme.

I'm going to start some initial work on this in my TAPP day tomorrow, so will be here chatting away with you guys.

I would appreciate it if someone could keep track of the most popular three skills.

E.g

Cooking 6 votes
Farming 3 votes
Firemaking 2 votes
Attack 1 vote

It would make my life a lot easier.

Remember, I want them to work under an aviansie theme. I would prefer to avoid using the war setup proposed here a lot, as I don't feel it's accurate. But refugee and humanitarian aid systems could work really nicely.

Don't worry about rewards, once we've got the three skills I'll start a rewards discussion.

= Raven =

24-May-2017 17:01:18

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Hey guys,

I'm like to shelve Invention as a possibility. This would create a new training method for invention and that would create a horrendous balancing issue that would tar the entire project. So I'd like to set that aside for now so we can focus more on what we can do.

Thanks Ramooona, your skills list is a great help. Naturally it puts agility at the top which makes me cry inside though. :P

Someone asked if the closed ecosystem skilling would be the only skilling methods. I would still like to have a bank chest, so bankstanding skilling can still be done and I would open up the area to allow portables. However, I am unsure as to whether to add in anvils/ranges/etc for the moment, but have not ruled them out.

= Raven =

25-May-2017 08:29:40

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Deltaslug said:
@Mod Raven
Keep in mind, that while this is good for getting ideas, if you're wanting a lot more feedback on what skills or skill combos to use, you can always:
Use Reddit with a Surveymonkey poll
Use the in game polling system

This way, when you reach a point that says you've gotten working combos of skills, or you don't know if more people would prefer ABC or ADE combinations, you can get a lot more community feedback.


I'm aware of this, however I'd prefer to focus on the people that have the most passion for the subject and a willingness to engage. Reddit is good for a wide range, but I'd half expect the three skills to be "slayer, slayer and slayer" judging by what I normally see on Reddit.

As this is a TAPP project, an in game poll seems a bit much. Remember that there is zero guarantee that this will actually make it into the game.

Remember that this is intended to be a fun, niche, activity and not the best training method ever. :)

= Raven =

25-May-2017 15:17:29

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Hey guys,

At this stage, I'm less interested in proposed mechanics for how the skills would interact, but rather the skills themselves.

What skills do you feel would be the most aviansie, the most armadylean. When we have the skills THEN we shall look into how they'll work, but for now just focus on the skills. :)

= Raven =

26-May-2017 08:21:23

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Ok. So.

Am I right in thinking the top most popular are:-

Smithing, Agility and Hunter?

Or

Smithing, Agility and Divination?

Don't worry about what the skills could mean (Agility does not have to be an agility course for example, but it does limit some of what we can do).

Is agility just because of the wings?

= Raven =

30-May-2017 09:41:55

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Agility is going to be the tricky one to theme properly, but I might be able to think up some uses for it.

Currently I am quite liking this trinity:-

Hunter, Smithing and Divination. With Agility offering some sort of bonus content/possible reward space.

I want to create something similar to Herblore Habitat, so the use of one skill affects what you can do with another which all in turn feeds into another skill which affects everything. None of it will be best in slot, but I think I can make something quite fun and social for everyone to engage with together.

Anyone hate this trinity?

= Raven =

31-May-2017 09:06:27

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Poshpants said:
Absolutely hate all of that, which is good because you can't go wrong then can you. I'm going to need sword that one hits all reaper tasks.


Judging by the sword thing I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but I wanted to be sure you didn't actually despise what is being loosely proposed here.

= Raven =

31-May-2017 11:43:55

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Poshpants said:
Imagine, if you will a sword, that combines all swords, and Guthix juice and the Sliskian troll power of a god on a power trip of Justice that invents a sword so powerful it can destroy other gods with one decapitation blow. A sword which fixes every problem in the game from the skiller/bosser balance, to the trouble at trah.

No your tiny bird brains can't imagine you. So you throw mud... Wow.


The sword is not happening. :P

= Raven =

01-Jun-2017 08:25:00

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I'm not going to comment on the current discussion, except to say that I'm not normally a fan of writing a character's romantic preferences before I write their character. Armadyl, for example, wasn't a conscious choice to go "we need X amount of representation STAT!" but rather as we developed him and wrote his history, it became an apparent that this was the right approach for this character.

If I were to include anything similar in future content, it would be under the same approach.

I am, however, not terribly good at writing romantic characters of any kind, because I am a cold husk of a person that only knows how to emotionally torment their characters. So don't expect too much in the way of delightful aviansie love stories.

Though actually that might be something for the community to send in... hrmmm.

= Raven =

07-Jun-2017 15:50:18

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Davidlemos said:
Mod Raven, I would recomend , in particular about these stories, something like the competition of the library in Menaphos.

Why not let players send texts and choose some of them to use as in game books? The reward is to see something from ourselves in game!

It's a great way, in my opinion, to get community involved (and a good reason to spend time there). Lore hounds would love it (myself included)!


I was already planning on doing this. ;)

Mostly with regards to the court cases, but I could expand it.

= Raven =

08-Jun-2017 08:37:00

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Progress update

My test stream has been updated and a quick design of the opening miniquest is in play. Beginning work on laying the foundations of the miniquest to get the content started. :)

Please keep ideas coming for the content of the citadel itself.

= Raven =

08-Jun-2017 14:04:16

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Fiksii said:
Mod Raven said:
Progress update

My test stream has been updated and a quick design of the opening miniquest is in play. Beginning work on laying the foundations of the miniquest to get the content started. :)

Please keep ideas coming for the content of the citadel itself.

= Raven =


Cool!

I like the idea of a Menaphos library style thing, the idea that the citadel has a library-like area would fit I think. Though maybe translation is an issue?

I question my own writing but man I would try. I see a good opportunity to collect all the stuff we know from Q&A's etc. into the game in some form :)


A full on library is likely a no, sorry. This is a TAPP project and the localisation team would murder me if I pushed for too many words. A little bit of history, maybe, but I'm not going to allow loads of books in, sorry.

= Raven =

08-Jun-2017 15:43:19

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Elf of Seren said:
@Ramona, (I'm responding anyways) I agree with most of what you said and you make very valid points. Be careful if you post on the Rant's section, because it's probably gonna get a lot of hate. Just a forewarning.

~~~~

Back on topic, Raven, what content for the Citadel are you still looking for? Just skilling, or more stuff like the bird eggs, or both, orrr...?


At this point in time I'm currently wondering about the mixed skill interactions. I think they're the next big design stage.

I want a sense of discovery, experimentation and community interaction. Something that gets you to play around with one skill, to allow you to play around with another and so forth.

Similar to how herblore habitat works.

Rewards are also probably worth thinking about. I want something that you either top up from repeated activity, or a repeatable reward. I'd like to avoid anything OP and I don't want to just give out XP, something a little different.

Again, remembering, no graphics. ;)

= Raven =

13-Jun-2017 15:33:40

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Elf of Seren said:
(I honestly think that if you posted a thread in the lore forum, you'd get a bit more targeted feedback. That being said, you'd also have to deal with its cynics and trolls)


This is less of a lore update though. There is lore, sure, but I want to focus on the gameplay aspect of this more than just the lore. I have a lot of aviansie lore in my head that I'm happy to roll out, what I need here is an idea of what people would like to do on a day to day basis in the citadel.

I'd also like people to start thinking about what they would find fun to do. Often suggestions are just things that make the game easier, or faster to level or are more powerful in x/y/z. I would like people to think about what they would enjoy doing. What activities they could do with friends that would feel fun and enjoyable.

Admittedly I have a very very limited amount of dev time to do this, so I'm not going to imply that this will be the most engaging content ever. But if I can make something fun and a little social, I'll consider it a success. :)

= Raven =

22-Jun-2017 09:53:58

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Today is TAPP day, but I'm a bit behind on this project as I've been roped into something else. Still, my aim today is to get a good chunk of the precursor miniquest sorted.

Out of curiosity, do you guys want updates of progress and if so do you want spoilers of content? E.g do you want an idea of what the precursor miniquest entails and so forth?

A reminder, just because I post my progress does not mean it will go into the game. This is entirely a personal project that has not yet been approved for submission into the game.

= Raven =

06-Jul-2017 12:12:00

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Heads up. Pausing this briefly during TAPP as I focus on something a little more time sensitive. This is not forgotten though, so keep your ideas coming.

As a teaser below is the proposed format for the miniquest:

The player begins at Armadyl's tower where they find the Armadyleans preparing to break into the citadel. However, a strange force prevents them from accessing it with their forces.

To break in, Armadyl will need to channel his power into a portal, effectively smashing his way through into the citadel. To do this, he needs an infusion of power, specifically the traces of his own divine power that has left faint imprints on Gielinor.

This leads to a tales style quest of gathering Armadylean essence from Gielinor and getting small memories of Armadyl's past here. Things like when he found the Armadylean settlement destroyed after Zamorak's explosion and his grief over Obi'Sooth etc.

Should hopefully be a nice bit of Armadylean and aviansie lore.

After that... well wait and see.


Hopefully that should be a bit interesting.

Again, disclaimer, none of this is guaranteed and should not be considered a promise as it's just me in my TAPP time. :)

= Raven =

06-Jul-2017 15:05:24

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Update: This is still on hold briefly, as I have some urgent things to deal with, but it's not forgotten and I do intend to pick it up again shortly. Note that again this is just a TAPP project and is not guaranteed to go into game and nor is it considered unfinished business. ;)

Takara said:


I imagine that parts of this will take us into the Wilderness. Will it be possible to enter an instanced Wilderness for this (perhaps have one of the Armadyleans offer to escort us in)
akin to "Defender of Varrock"? I know I'll find it hard to concentrate on this while feeling under the gun for PKers...


Any scenes in the wilderness will be instanced when seen (i.e any cutscenes or similar) but I don't intend to completely instance the entire wilderness for this section, no. Certainly no items will need to be required for it, other than a quest item which will be kept on death and untradable (so no value) so you won't be required to bring anything into the wilderness.

Takara said:


Also, since this is a Tales thing, will we be able to go back and review the stories later on?
I'm not so much interested in a replay as I am simply being able to review the memories again later. Tales of Nomad didn't feature this, whereas Tales of the God Wars Dungeon II did.


Maybe. I haven't gotten round to designing any of the post-quest stuff or whether it would be possible to replay the scenes. If I can code it simply and sensibly, then I can look to doing this, but as always no promises at this stage.

= Raven =

23-Nov-2017 08:45:19 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 08:45:31 by Mod Raven

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