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Rikornak

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I generally really, really love the concept so far, as it a close meta might give the players a final push to finally do that last cheevo to unlock it. Maybe it would be nice to introduce minigame, misc and exploration capes later on?

Also - are you planning to give use even more achievements like the set released in November? It's also a way to keep players busy for a while.

Now the things I do not like as much:

- I don't like the idea to see the QPC, MQC and max cape gone. What will happen to the perks of the former two? Will a decent hybrid cape, which can emulate the all style bonus of the current cape also be introduced? The upgraded tok-haar cape certainly is a downgrade for now.
- It might be better to unlock the stat bonus gradually. They certainly should eventually cap out, but having the full bonus after completing a single tier 1 meta is a bit too cheap to be honest. Maybe it could be done after doing either t1 comp or any t3 category. That allows players who do not want to engage in specific kinds of content to actually earn the full bonus in their way, but would also allow to reward players who engage in a multitude of content. Maybe it wouldn't even hurt if that bonus is extended over several (not all) t2 cheevos.
- Keep the option in mind to introduce further tiers (4,5, whatever) later on. Content of all kinds get more prestigious over time and this might even be a chance to upgrade unfitting achievements into a more fitting level (i.e. CW gets upgraded to tier 4 and 5 when those are introduced - until it finally reaches an adequate tier as it stands). In general single achievements shouldn't be too off to the remainder (or even majority) of a specific set, which CW certainly manages for now. Don't get me wrong: I certainly think CW should exist as a minigame achievement, but I just don't think it can be adequately represented even in tier 3. Maybe it is feasible to fix that broken requirement.
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12-Mar-2019 20:29:02 - Last edited on 12-Mar-2019 21:04:54 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Seeing all the ranting regarding comp: I am fairly certain, that most of you guys will not even be able to wear the new tier 2 comp, not alone to speak of tier 3. I am even totally certain that the 'work-to-rule'-variety of you guys will initially even drop out of tier 1. If you want the random mess (trimmed) comp currently is, you still can work towards the legacy capes and maintain them like they are (which just involves killing a new boss every now and then). If tier 3 does what it is supposed to be it will be less common than the current trimmed.

MvP 187 said:

There's no way you guys are serious about removing the max cape, because if you are, i'm telling you right now that myself and all of my friends are going to quit the game if this is the case. We've worked so hard to achieve the max cape and for it to be replaced by the lame sounding "skills-1 cape" is just retarded. "Hey guys look at me and my cool skills-1 cape" will be said by no one ever. It's the max cape and always has been the max cape. Go ahead and continue with this update if you want to lose what few player base you guys have left.

You as a company need to start listening to the community who actually pays to play this game. And who is even asking for this rework anyways?? You guys wanna rework the comp cape then thats fine. But theres no reason you should touch the quest capes and max cape.

Tread carefully jagex, you remove the quest cape and max cape and it will be a decision you will deeply regret with a vast amount of players ready to quit.


Mod Jack posted on twitter that the QPC will be the actual tier 1 lore and max cape the actual tier 1 skilling cape. MQC will be *most likely* tier 3 lore (which actually fits quite well since this cape covers almost everything relevant in contrary to (trimmed) comp).

Also I am fairly sure that 'activity-n'-cape is just a placeholder for now and they'll find something more fancy.
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14-Mar-2019 06:01:15 - Last edited on 14-Mar-2019 06:04:21 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Tom Covenant said:
...


Whats the problem? If players like you like the broken random mess the current existing (trimmed) comp is they can work towards the legacy capes and maintain them, just as now (which most likely implies they have to kill a new boss every few months) - it's not really completiotism, but it allows players to do it the old school way it has been for the last few years. Well - the sole difference is: It won't ever get any more new requirements added for sure, just existing ones updated - but basically the sole change is: It certainly will get no further requirements, not a 'we flip a coin to see if something ends up on the cape or not'.

And well - the remainder can go for any of the 21 modern metas with fitting (using guidelines, just like the MQC already does) requirements and see if they can achieve and maintain as many of them as possible. And I could perfectly imagine that the new t3 comp will demand so much more prestigious stuff than a trimmed comp ever could - and that's not just prestige stemming from 'I have leeched CW for around 80 days of real time straight'. Think of stuff like the golden warden, IFB, Master of all, 5.4b xp,...

Generally I would agree if they'd fix the broken content additionally (comp is broken, as it isn't designed after guidelines so this should be fixed as well), but most likely some more 'special' players could be the reason they wouldn't want to risk a mass going bonkers just at the thought of making CW more enjoyable for future generations - I mean: They suffered this broken mess, so everybody else should do so as well.
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14-Mar-2019 08:37:36 - Last edited on 14-Mar-2019 08:43:57 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Stealthlead said:
Can you shed some light on whether or not you plan to remove certain group bosses as a requirement? I currently have one achievement left which is Solak which requires 120m to leech as I cannot find a team to do it with.

If you cannot shed light on the matter, can you at least give a proposed time frame for the soonest you would release said completionist cape rework?


You can be fairly secure that solak won't be featured on tier 1 combat and thus in conjunction tier 1 comp. He'll be most likely featured on tier 2 combat though, if you're lucky just on t3. And well - if you want legacy comp - nothing will change in there.
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17-Mar-2019 06:51:42 - Last edited on 17-Mar-2019 07:03:24 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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- Break the counter in the body room during or after elemental workshop III
- Tell Gwir about all your exploits after Plagues' End
- Tell Derni, Dernu and Miodvetnir about all your exploits after King of the Dwarves
- Tell Ali the Barman about the poisoned drink after The Feud

Unsure if the strange orb trading sequence should be used. But on the other hand the TzHaar-Ga'al-Kot miniquest was included as well - despite being a fairly well hidden secret.

That would be missing quest/lore stuff I got compiled.

As for commentary:

- Unobtainable books could be made obtainable in a physical form for collecting them for the bookcase.
- I don't really think that Jessica's sword should be included in lore. That would bascially once more be this Livid farm thing, that a minigame reward locked behind a quest has to be obtained for the MQC.
- Daemonheim journals 16-20 simply should be changed to 1:1000 drops like every other monster dropped book in daemonheim. Perfect juju potions and dungeoneering master capes still would boost the chance further. As they stand it was absolutely correct to exclude them from MQC, albeit a fix would've been the better solution.
- Philippe may be an oversight, since there is an achievement to find him at every location up to Piscatorious. So the cheevo should be updated in this aspect.
- Likewise the old diary should be included in 'Lovingly Crafted', since it features some horror lore. Make it addable to the bookcase.
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18-Mar-2019 10:11:17 - Last edited on 18-Mar-2019 10:27:44 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Tom Grey said:
Aqua Star said:
Tom Grey said:
Easy fix to comp cape turned into this....sigh. No polls, no jmod interactions. Do they even read these thread after they post them. Reminds me of the mtx apologies.


They might poll some redesigned quest capes Lore Tier capes that nobody asked for and everybody said they don't want and nobody will need to wear due to them having no stats or teleports next month maybe if they're not busy on holiday.
Exactly my thoughts. instead of comp cape will we now have 4 comp capes (1 max with stats and 3 cosmetic without).

I am not a fan of striving for something that gives no inherent benefit. Also more than certain that new capes will come out looking worse than any sgs outfit cape slot item you can buy. So what is going to be the point in going for them. If they want to screw over people who go for cosmetics, put requirements on trim comp and save yourself some time. But how is having dozens of cosmetic capes will solve any problems?


Two tiers just are not enough to be fair to all content the game has. I am fairly sure not even 3 would be, that's why they're considering an hypothetical fourth tier, which just would award titles. It's not just about tons of requirements missing, it's also about disentangling the random mess the current (trimmed) comp is. Big plus for the new system also would be they could easily extend it then for other kinds of content.

If you don't like to do something (because it gives you no inherent benefit) - why do it then? You clearly are no completionist (even though you might be able to wear the current cape), still you seem to want to go for something that is intended for those having completed the game. There are still four capes/metas for you to strive for: Lore T1, Skills T1, Combat T1, Combat T2 - those will give you passive perks or combat stats.
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19-Mar-2019 05:51:46

Rikornak

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When the new capes focus on achievements rather than completables (which was the intention of the original comp after all) stuff like scoring high in a round of a minigame despite it doesn't unlock anything, talking to some random dude while having an asininily overpriced armour equipped or killing all bosses once also would have more justification. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
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19-Mar-2019 05:55:16 - Last edited on 19-Mar-2019 06:09:11 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Great Minds said:
Freezing Existing Comp & Trimmed Comp capes
We’ve spoken about all the improvements we’re making, but what about the existing Completionist and Trimmed Completionist Capes? We don’t want to abandon them, or devalue the accomplishments of the players who have them.

So, our current pitch for the existing Comp and Trimmed Comp would be to effectively ‘freeze’ them. The current Comp Cape and Trimmed Comp Cape would become ‘Legacy’ versions of themselves and be renamed appropriately. These Legacy versions would:
Keep all their existing requirements
Would still be obtainable and could still be worn post-rework.
Would never have any of their requirements added to, changed, or removed.
Wouldn’t have stats or non-stat benefits, but you’d still have access to them thanks to the changes proposed earlier in this document.

This means that, if you already have a Comp or Trimmed Comp Cape, you get to keep it and, if you’re close to getting one, you can keep working towards it.



This is still my problem.
T2 = comp
T3 = Trimmed comp.
Easy as that.


The problem is - legacy (trimmed) comp has effectively been frozen for so many years now - so nothing will change in that aspect. Except for updating existing requirements (music, quests, reaper - the latter not even a fitting requirement since it's an achievement and not a completable/unlockable, which was the essence of the original comp cape design) they add at best token requirements for new content - at best, more often than not anything at all.

I could list you more than enough achievements, that should rather be requirements and more than enough content, that isn't even acknowledged in the form of an achievement.
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19-Mar-2019 08:18:00

Rikornak

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Greek Theos said:
This all coming from 2,472 total level with 220m total exp and one 99. completionist should 100% be best in slot. if you won't put the work in for it, deal with your slightly less prestigious capes.

I saw the max cape and wanted it for it's stats, so I set out to get it, same with the comp cape. If bossing is your thing and you can't be bothered to get comp for the best cape, then deal with not having best in slot. Wherever this update takes us, I'll be getting the capes regardless.


Even if he hasn't got a max cape it doesn't make his points so much less valid: The current comp cape is a random mess.

Some requirements do not fit at all when the old system should check for completables, rather then achievements (read: each completable is also an achievement, but it doesn't work the other way around - talking to some dude in a random set of armour might work as an achievement - but it certainly isn't a completable), and tons of other stuff are not acknowledged at all (or got solely a token requirement). The sole thing that really gets added are updated achievements (music, reaper, quests,...) - and for this aspect the legacy comp cape will not change at all.

The big difference to the new system is that this one actually is planned to check for achievements, which might even validate certain currently unfitting requirements, that got randomly added by flipping the coin. The big plus is that there will be a lot of stepping stones, which might not certainly have single requirements that do not fit to the remainder of a specific set.
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20-Mar-2019 19:00:56

Rikornak

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Uncl said:
It occurs to me, this is socialism for capes lol. That said, considering the number of alt accounts, a combat cape between max and comp, but closer to comp stats, does make sense.

In the design doc, I don't see anything which states requirements. If you want to win over the no change crowd, we need the requirements.

I think part of the hype ( including my socialism comment ), is that some of us are thinking capes & passives could be achieved at a mere 70-99, and maybe a quest or a few. For a cape with good stats, the t1 reqs should start at 99 combat, and the t3 should need 120 slayer.

But even still, there should be one cape which rules them all


You can be fairly sure that the new comp cape still certainly won't be something everybody will have. Sure - most players will have an handful of t1 (or even 2) capes, but I would bet that a lot of the legacy compers (and maybe even trimmed compers) will initially fail at having the new comp fulfilled - simply for the fact they just did whatever the capes said them to do: And if they just did the plain minimum they will lack a lot of content - simply for the reason legacy comp ignored a lot of stuff released in all those years.

As for reference: T1 Skilling will be more than the max cape (they said more achievements than just all 99s) (unlocks some passive perk), T1 Lore will be the QPC (unlocks some passive perk), T1 combat will the majority of the reaper (I could imagine they either make a cut at GWD2 or at telos/araxxor) (unlocks a passive stat boost, which might even be amplified with t2 combat) - no details for exploration, misc and minigames yet though - and those should be the areas, which will be heavily expanded. T1 Comp is all other T1 achievements combined.

Scale this up to T2 and T3 I'd say T3 comp will certainly be something that deserves the term completionist a tiny bit more than the current cape - the current trimmed cape.
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22-Mar-2019 05:57:30 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 05:58:40 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Uncl said:
...


If you think the current comp is actually a comp cape - sorry nope. As I said - I am more than sure there will be enough players who will be able to run around with a legacy comp cape, but have initially failed to obtain the new t1 one - you act like like every noob will be running around with t1 comp, I just doubt it, see alone those outcries in the RGU forum when certain players failed at that new quest. I guess it will be a more common sight eventually, but t2 should be rarer - not to speak of t3 - of course not assuming they mess it entirely up.

The following stuff was acknowledged on their design documents and a reddit Q&A so you can take it for granted for now. Stuff in brackets is my commentary and speculation:

Lore Tier 1: Literally QPC
Lore Tier 2: Quests + Post Quest Stuff + Miniquests
Lore Tier 3: Most likely MQC (whatever this 'most likely' is supposed to mean)
Skills Tier 1: Max cape + x (whatever that 'x' will be, you will have max before that seemingly though)
Combat Tier 1: Something that will be less than reaper (whatever is cut from it should be up to debate of course - I just doubt they'll set on the cut below GWD2, it might also go into a different direction and demand fulfilling achievements at those bosses - not plainly killing them - of course once more just speculation)
Combat Tier 2: Reaper (+x?)

So it will leave minigames, exploration and misc stuff fully up to speculation, but since those won't unlock perks I think it is save to assume it will not be as yielding as the other three categories, so they won't award neither stat bonuses or a passive effect like for lore and skills.

If the tiers are used right a player who completed a t1 meta shouldn't be too close to complete the next tier (if that happens the player did it either deliberately or a distinct cheevo was poorly classified).
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22-Mar-2019 13:25:28 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 13:36:33 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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The Lore achievements are extremely good sketched already since we got the MQC, which was - in contrary to (trimmed) comp - designed by having guidelines. Sure there may be a low amount of content missing, but it hasn't got random non-completables added for whatever reason. The only difference to the current state is that those will suddenly be required for something that calls itself completionist cape (tier 2 and 3 respectively, full quest completion + a handful of miniquests was required for (trimmed) comp after all).

Yes it might actually help if something like this would be at least roughly sketched for the other categories as well. Will you need skilling pets for t3 skilling? Will you need boss collections for t3 combat? It's not really clear and I do agree with you on that aspect. But you really shouldn't act like that you'll have t1 combat done with a few mole and KBD kills for instance. Yes we do not know how it will look like in detail, but a tiny bit of common sense doesn't hurt in here.

And all in all - if t1 comp is too easy for you - aim for t2. If you've mastered that one show the world you're the best and get t3. If you got this - get those t4 titles.
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22-Mar-2019 13:35:38 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 13:47:23 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Now that's precious:

- One of the problems with legacy comp is, that it has no guidelines of what has to be added and what not. This won't be fixed by keeping the old stuff and just bump on 'forgotten' content of the last 5 years. As a bare minimum everything that would just be an achievement (and not a completable) should be degraded to achievements (in the fitting categories) in addition. The problem goes in both directions after all if we're just checking for completables and unlocks.
- I guess we can agree that t1 comp and legacy comp won't be subsets of one another (don't forget - the latter will still be there to be achieved and maintained): With a bit of speculation I'd guess a barely fulfilled legacy comp would roughly be worth tier 1 lore (you've done all quests, but post quest stuff is trimmed), tier 1 skilling (with progress towards tier 2), tier 1 exploration (if that is less than all elites done it'll be a joke in comparison to quest and skills) and tier 2 combat - you basically haven't shown any competence in minigames at all (unless those parts where you had to do them for a quest or task list) - and well misc will be something more special anyway (hard to say how to translate it into the new system, but I guess most misc stuff would be trimmed anyway, regular comp is more focused). How is that worth a free voucher for a t2 comp cape? Trimmed legacy comp doesn't look that much better btw - I guess it's worth some progress towards t1 minigame (well with a single requirement, which goes way past that), t2 lore and a lot of misc stuff for once. Once again - a trimmed comp, that is barely fulfilled by its wearer.
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22-Mar-2019 16:48:37 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 16:55:14 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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- It might be that cosmetics are worthless (or at least not worth that much) to you, but that doesn't apply to many other players - otherwise something like solomon, events and certain MTX promotions couldn't work at all. Also players wouldn't bother doing certain ingame activities, which just award cosmetic stuff. Otherwise players wouldn't buy keepsake keys to use real equipment (also skillcapes) as overrides. And especially an hard earned t3 override might be a sight you'll not see every day - why should that show less dedication than an actual item?
- Another issue that is fixed by making capes in general more modular (let's just ignore comp in here for once) is that players given more freedom of what they want to wear and what not. In terms of offence our best capes are 7 years old now. If specific effects are no longer bound to a (crappy) cape, players also would be interested in gaining better equipment when they're able to keep the effect without binding themselves to a poor item. As an example take ava's devices - even the alerter isn't really good, but since players wanted to use the effect on better equipment they've made it the skillcape perk for ranged - which nobody would wear since it's statwise inferior to the alerter. Adding the perk to comp is useless as well since comp has that effect anyway. So we got an intentionally pooly designed perk just to for having it as an option for max - and I am not sure how many players made use of that.
- Also due to modular capes players won't lose everything at once. If a new t2 combat boss is added they're losing a bit of their stats, not their whole utility - so players are free to engage the boss in their own pace and not having to do it ASAP (an amnesty period doesn't fully fix that issue)
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22-Mar-2019 16:48:48 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 17:23:55 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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- I also don't think that you should go above and beyond for maximum stats, IFB has basically displayed no further competence for justifying a stat boost (oh gratulations, you've killed a boss not once, but 56904013 times in order to get their pet drop), I actually think there should be more than just a cosmetic reward for t2 content though. (I guess t3 lore will still award the MQC perk)

It might also be worth to take a look at the evaluation of the comp cape survey:

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/b0cfbt/tldw_425_comp_cape_rework_dev_qa/

Still 65 % of the compers who partook had the feeling, that unfitting requirements should be removed.

Combined 60 % of the compers who partook had the feeling that the reaper in its current form should either be abolished or at least be split.

And well there was a consensus between compers and non-compers to add fitting stuff - either eventually or instantly. But there was also a fairly large portion of compers who disagreed about that - and I think to remain fair to them keeping the existing solution as legacy comp is a nice compromise.

To go full circle, since neither of the capes is a subset of the other: If you want a cape which doesn't need much maintenance once earned - aim for legacy, if you want to stay up to date - aim for any of the new ones. How much you want to put in for maintenance depends on the amount of prestige you want to achieve. And this said I am fairly sure that t2 comp will be more prestigious than legacy comp and t3 more than trimmed legacy.
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22-Mar-2019 17:00:28 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2019 17:25:01 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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I guess the thing as a whole is a tad bit older than just the poll - and I am not sure if you had read the dev blog to this.

If we were to take a correctly enforced (legacy) comp (all fitting completeables/unlockables added, purely achievement based stuff removed) it will significantly amplify the issue that game has almost no milestones - basically we got QPC, Max, MQC, Comp and Trimmed Comp. The former two are our entry levels, while only Max will remain fairly static, so it could eventually happen, that the QPC will demand more xp wise than a max cape - not to speak it has challenges, that go past 'grind for x hours' - but I guess as an entry level thing a maxed player should be able to get it the latest when he gets maxed. The other three capes are by concept rising ever higher and higher - MQC and trimmed comp are purely cosmetic (well okay the former has an handful of teleports, which the regular QPC wouldn't have), but comp locks powerful utility behind content it doesn't fit to.

When comp gets more and more overbloated it gets set farer and farer away from max (which likely was one of the reasons why they were so reluctantly with adding more requirements). In the new system we now have 24 milestones: The 18 individual metas, the 3 comp metas, max (since it's less than skills 1), legacy comp, legacy trimmed comp. This way something like solak won't suddenly cause players to lose everything - at best they lose t2 (and in conjunction t3) combat and comp, as well as both legacy capes.

Let's say a player fails at t1 combat, but manages to do t1 skilling and lore - this way he still gets his utility perks, while the combat bonus still would be exclusive to the player who is more adept at fighting (and thus needs the boost) - on the other hand the fighter doesn't need to bother raising skills or doing quests, which wouldn't help him for combat - he loses access to some (but not all) utility then so.
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23-Mar-2019 06:19:43 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 06:36:06 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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You identified the reaper cape as a wish of the community as a sub-milestone towards comp. But what is actually wrong having the very same thing for 5 other types of players. It all will eventually funel in a comp cape, but you do not just have combat as a path to traverse (+ some standalone stuff). Actually having 'just' the reaper cape wouldn't have fixed that issue since it was the part most players had an issue with comp. It would have validated the reaper as a requirement (since it wouldn't have been just a random achievement anymore) - but certainly not fixed that very issue. Having the reaper split in two tiers should do the thing though. Most players will at least have t1 combat - but not 2 or 3. As I said - I am not even entirely sure if a full reaper completion would be sufficient for t2 combat.

Another thing is if they're introducing more and more requirements that do not really would play in a league with everything existing they can add on more tiers and metas. The current comp system just isn't that expandable. I always was in favour of a true trimmed comp with a full re-classification on what is on each cape, but this new system basically is the same - not just vertically extending it, but also horizontally: Since it isn't restricted to unlockables/completables as valid requirements, but also achievements they'll be able to design ever weirder challenges.

As for cosmetics: I think the best thing is if all utility and bonuses are given for the first two meta tiers - alongside different bonuses for minigames, exploration and maybe a fun, small thing for misc - this way a skiller needs to keep up his perks, the very same way a comper or quest now or also a fighter in the new system. And I say this not knowing the cosmetics styles for the skilling, combat and comp capes - I think more than 8 years of difference between the old capes of distinction and those new ones might make them quite an eye-catcher, huh?
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23-Mar-2019 06:20:01 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 06:40:23 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Uncl said:
...


That really sounds reasonable. I must admit I was for myself also a fan once of a runescore based system (fixed percentage of the maximum) earlier, but I always had a bit of that feeling that what Jagex misses out on adding requirements would be pushed toward the player then. Also a big problem, which I pointed out when they asked for new achievements was that many achievements are significantly over- (mostly combat - take alone a look at leaving the wolves at helwyr) or underrated (very often minigames or misc stuffs). So it's a bit of a foul deal, which would have worked as an easy fix in contrary to a full rework.

I guess the stuff fighters would want from comp are those three trait slots, its superior combat stats and maybe utility effects like ava and spirit cape. Stuff like unifying other perks certainly also wouldn't be a disadvantage.

As for the specialized groups: I agree questers are really in a good spot (basically MQC just needs to be split into two tiers with one focusing on advanced quest stuff (t2 - all post quest stuffs + miniquests) and other lore heavy content (t3 - MQC), which both are quite some step up from the previous tier and allow to show off their lore progress (somebody with the bare minimum for a quest cape will have to skill a lot more to claim and use all post quest stuffs for instance, likewise a t2 quester will have to collect a lot of books to show mastery then).

I really can only guess how skillers are treated post tier 1 - tier 2 might be all 120s, tier 3 might be having master of all unlocked. Logically thought tier 1 skilling might include 120 in invention, dungeoneering and slayer - which for itself would distinct it from the max cape sufficiently.

As for combat - it actually is a progress path widely independent from skilling that way. A player who has achieved t3 combat will likely at least be close to maxing - but doesn't necessarily need to be.
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23-Mar-2019 16:36:19 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 16:54:21 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Your comparison might work for low levelled bosses, since players had a lot of free room to level up further, as well as jagex had a lot of free room to include new equipment. That isn't really the case anymore today, most players are maxed when engaging with new content and this new content mostly awards new stuff, which isn't giving vertical power progression - it's mostly step up equipment (e.g. GWD2, ED1) or an alternative to existing stuff (e.g. Solak, ED3). Sure - players are getting more adept at existing bosses over time, but this is a learning process.

That Jagex isn't interested too much in driving the power curve further is best seen with (trimmed) masterwork - in comparison to its ranged/magic counterparts it's basically just more economical to maintain (both variants) and regarding the set bonus (just trimmed) - it is a cool utility effect (which I actually prefer over something like void, since that makes it easier for players to eventually part of the stuff in favour of new equipment), but it doesn't increase your offensive potential beyond the pure stats.

That doesn't imply we're not getting stronger at all - they've released skill codices and hydrix ornament kits the last years - but it is so much slower than earlier: T90 was the highest tier for a bit over 3 years, likewise t92 is it for yet another 3 years now. Our best in slot cape is 7 years old now likewise (okay it's partially the fault of comp they haven't released anything, but cosmetics in all that time). Jewellery 4 years (yes - I know we got a miniscule increase with those ornament kits and ring imbues). Don't get me wrong in here - I prefer this since it makes equipment more relevant - there are other games that basically have a full reset every few months, when the new stuff invalidates everything that was there up to this point.
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23-Mar-2019 16:42:48 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 17:36:25 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Having the reaper split in two parts - one that shows a specific degree of dedication and skill (what ever that might be, as I said a reasonable cut could be GWD2 for that aspect, but it could also work including araxxor and telos) - and one that requires players to go beyond them would certainly also reduce the hate a lot of players have towards new bosses: Be it solak, be it raids, be it whatever they also had released or might release in the future. Ideally it might even raise their curiosity in doing it, since they do no longer need to feel anxious on getting the relevant effects back ASAP. Also imagine even harder bosses that could directly be introduced to t3 in the future.

Leaves out explorers, minigamers and misc. I guess it would be the best for those to wait someone at Jagex telling us what they think about what might be included on what cape. As a fun fact - the MQC was shaped in a similiar process. The developer posted a list of guidelines he uses for the design as well as stuff he would like to include on the cape - and the community shared their thoughts - a lot of stuff was added because of this and some unfitting requirements were cut (livid farm was originally part of the MQC despite having no relevance at all, bar randomly lying in a quest locked area - it was killed off quickly because of this) or at least reduced (i.e. you just need to kill 30 chompies instead of all 4k - so you would unlock the first hat as a post quest reward and not all of them)

Now to charos: Charos is a guy and you've basically discovered everything what is discoverable now, when his necklace got its gem re-inserted. If you haven't done that, I wouldn't want to spoil you now, just let you know there might be a piece of information out there you haven't seen yet. But generally - the story isn't concluded yet.
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23-Mar-2019 16:55:37 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2019 18:12:29 by Rikornak

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Bfmv said:
I’m just confused about the whole “freezing” the legacy comp capes. So if I own a comp cape and it’s in my bank but I cannot wear it because of new content and when this comp rework comes live. Will I be able to wear the comp cape I have in my bank or will I still need to complete the content before the rework happened?


The current comp cape will literally remain the same as it had been for quite some time now: New content won't get distinct requirements, existing requirements (mostly music, quests, bosses and skills) will be updated. It also still will remain obtainable for those who haven't obtained it yet and it needs some low maintenance from those who got it.

If you want one of the new capes you'll probably have quite some work to do if you barely fulfill the legacy comp requirements. You'll be decently covered in lore, combat, skills and exploration, but you'll be lacking in the misc and minigame categories - most likely failing out even at tier 1. So basically both the modern and legacy comp capes have their own set of requirements not fully covering one another.
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04-Apr-2019 14:46:54 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2019 15:01:02 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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The tiering itself doesn't really sound too shabby and allows for some great progression paths.

I guess some players won't be too happy that the reaper still is the tier 1 combat cape (under the assumption that group bosses stay at tier 1) - but in contrary to the exisiting variant it at least now has some justification to be there (as those capes will be achievement based rather than on completables/unlockables).

Lore: Since this is the best covered area in the game already this sounds more than reasonable. Just add a missing thing every now and then. Maybe one thing as I am not sure if it's simply taken over from the existing concept: Have the tier 1 cape really require all quests instead of just maximum quest points. If you deemed a reworked quest as worthy enough for existing players to be replayable, it should also be a requirement.

Skills: Sounds good - with the max cape still being there basically is a four tier progression path there now.

Activities: Hmm - I guess just playing every minigame once really wouldn't be worth something cape of distinction-esque, but maybe tier 3 (or even 2) could be worth one? The current set of achievements might have too few stuff to define that properly, but there could new achievements be added, right?

Areas: Well - I highly doubt it could be better covered than this.

It's also good that misc is reserved for some weirder stuff and it won't need a tiering that way. Just use it for more exotic challenges that shouldn't need some justification for 'completiotism'.

Commentary for 'insane' achievements: Design this system in a way you can always extend it. In the future we certainly will have challenges that will be a lot harder than the floor of tier 2, but nothing players would call insane. If this happens move every odd one out to a new tier 3 and everything that still would be 'insane' by defintion to a hypothetical tier 4.
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05-Apr-2019 12:37:41 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 14:57:22 by Rikornak

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Lord Drakan said:
If it takes too much dev time, just take the quest/lore capes and recolour the blue bits red (for minigames) or green (for exploration/areas). It's a bit cheap but still very cool, and should take very little additional time.


I guess at least for the QPC it would only work with the legacy style, since the modern one has a compass emblem rather than a star. A recoloured MQC for tier 2/3 (I guess the new t3 lore cape will be based on the MQC) wouldn't sound too shabby though.

Lord Drakan said:
I've said this already, but let me now also stress, if I hadn't done so earlier, that many achievements should sit in the same category, whereas in the current suggestion they are all used only once. E.g. "defeat all champions" should be in tier 3 combat and minigames. "Complete all Dominion Tower achivements" ditto but tier 2. "Unlock all Lunar Spells" should be tier 3 quests (because many are rewards from Dream Mentor, Lunar Diplomacy and Ritual of the Mahjarrat, as well as Livid Farm) and skills (because Livid Farm is like a skill training area for Magic and Farming) but not minigames. Obtaining a dragon defender should be both combat (tier 1) and minigames (tier 2).


The livid farm spells were excluded from the MQC back then in the second draft since it had no lore relevance (basically nothing else, but randomly being placed in a quest locked area). The thing is, if livid farm was lore content everything in a quest locked area should be lore content as well). And that would drastically overbloat the lore cape compared to every single other category.
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05-Apr-2019 12:54:51 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 13:04:03 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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While I think some achievements are ambigious (unlocking the livid farm spells could either be skill or activity based) they should find a distinct cape for everything - that would lead to the question should unlocking a specific minigame/d&d based skilling set be based on said skill or an activity? I'd personally rather say activity, while skill stuff should be more like 'do x with your skill'. I'd personally could understand either solution, but most ambigious achievements should be more part of a certain category than part of the other one(s).

Lord Drakan said:
Please rename Lore to 'Quests and Lore' and Activites to 'Minigames and D&Ds'.


As far as I understand activities are more than just minigames and D&Ds, since tier 1 literally says including those two pieces of content. Livid farm certainly also would be an activity, while neither being minigame nor D&D. Maybe stuff like the player owned farm could be defined as an activity as well?

Bfmv said:
Ok that makes sense, but also I have had comp cape for over 5 years now. I just don’t have the requirements of it right now like, solak and ed2 and ed3. So I’m not that far away from getting comp cape and wearing it again. I was just wondering if I could wear it after the update since it’s been in my bank for about 2 years now.


With that new information towards the cape design you got the legacy comp and mostly the new tier 1 comp capes. Combat, Lore, Exploration and Skills is fully completed (with some progress towards tier 2) no matter what, Misc doesn't feature a meta. So you basically just would need to play each activity once to start out in the new system.
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05-Apr-2019 12:55:00 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 13:15:53 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Lord Drakan said:

I am more inclined to put that under skills, to be honest. It's a bit of an ambiguous category of content between skills and minigames, and includes (I suppose)

- Livid Farm
- Herblore Habitat
- Artisans Workshop
- Jadinko Lair
- Warriors' Guild
- Romily's tasks (even though they suck)
- Hall of Memories
- Player-owned Farm
- Deep Sea Fishing
- Lava-flow Mine

and possibly some others. Creating a new category probably isn't worth it, but I'd chuck 'em under skills for the purpose of achievements.


Yes, I guess that will be heavily semantics based on what would define an activity or not. Livid farm certainly would be more complex than the lava flow mine or the hall of memories, since either of them just focus on what you're doing all the time when training that skill - it just looks slightly different. But basically that's semantics (i.e. 'What makes a minigame a minigame?').

Lord Drakan said:
Also, re: my "there are too few achievements in several categories" comment; note also that if completionism tiers are the union of the respective tiers in all other categories, then many new achievements have to be added in order to fix the problem of inconsistent comp requirements (e.g. Bones to Peaches yes but ancient teletabs no). And this includes some desirable stuff that would only logically go in the misc category (e.g. full armour case as I mentioned before).


Certainly agreed on that. It's currently a bit hard to tell what might be added and what not - and not just that: What is shifted from the comp capes to the distinct skill capes? If getting all slayer souls would be a t2 skilling cheevo (then again - is slayer a skill or combat? - per definition it's a support skill, its pet is a combat pet though), that would already offer something to distinct those two capes from one another. Areas tier 1 and 2 have a 'likely be completed at the same time'-touch right now.
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05-Apr-2019 13:31:47 - Last edited on 05-Apr-2019 13:32:15 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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I'd personally would say the skill categories are more about stuff on how it would be to unfold your potential - combat, activities, lore (and sometimes misc) will be more about actually using said potential. Combat skills are one of the five subsets of skills and certainly should be part of the skilling cape as well. Especially when two of those combat skills (prayer and summoning) have an heavy impact on your skilling capabilities as well.

As for actually using the 'real' 120s for t1 is given the fact that we both still have the existing max cape (so a skills progression path would be max->t1->t2->t3), as well as those also being required for the legacy comp cape. It somewhat looks to me that both the t1 comp and legacy comp capes are fairly comparable to one another - t1 will likely be a tad bit easier, but both capes do not engulf one another wholy. When you reach t2 you'll have completed both, but there also would be trimmed comp as an alternative progression path. By the time t3 is reached once more both are completed.

Yes, most achievements require you to make use of your skills in one way or another (doesn't matter if it is skills, areas, combat or activities - or even some misc achievements). Most minigames/d&ds/activities require you to use at least one of those 27 skills - be it combat, artisan, gathering or support. That of course once again leads to stuff that might be fairly ambigious (e.g. I'd rather rate those two familiarisation achievements as 'activity' instead of 'skills' - especially considering that no skilling at all is involved in this D&D). But just because skills are used shouldn't be a reason to rate it as a 'skills' achievement - the very same way something in a quest locked area shouldn't be 'lore' just because of this sole fact.
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07-Apr-2019 06:34:08 - Last edited on 07-Apr-2019 06:50:01 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Best way to define activity might be, when it is something that is confined to a specific area - and has something that distincts it from your day-to-day skilling. Artisans Workshop literally just requires you to use your skill like you would everywhere else - but you can obtain unique unlockables that way. The lumber yard has no unique rewards, but it certainly is a different way to train your woodcutting skill than you would usually do (albeit one that isn't viable at all of course).

But yeah - there always will be some stuff, that might be ambigious: Is it trivial enough skilling to justify it as a skilling cheevo? Or does it more fit into one of the other categories?
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07-Apr-2019 06:37:46 - Last edited on 07-Apr-2019 06:53:13 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Uncl said:
It occurs to me, whilst this discussion is occurring, it would be really really great if you started adding achievements into the game with each weekly update. This will let people start to work on any new requirements.

However, as the design doc is not yet completed, don't make them required for the capes, only add to the RuneScore, or use an empty marker... For example, the Inferno Adze ~ redoing beacons, so we don't need to redo things we've already done.

Once the discussion is completed, then we can debate whether or not the new achievements can be added to the comp/comp(t)/qc/mqc.


I certainly like that idea, especially considering that achievements should be a fairly simple way to keep players occupied for a while.
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09-Apr-2019 16:41:41

Rikornak

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Maczumpa said:
I want to achieve comp mainly for cosmetic purposes cuz it looks really cool, atm im like 100m xp + reaper title off from getting it. Is there any sense to progress knowing theres huge update coming in and all my effort can just end up worthless?


It won't. The currently existing capes will be there to be earned as the (trimmed) legacy comp cape and you will have a set of new ones to work towards. They basically will work like they do for several years now: New content won't be featured on those, except for existing requirements updated (e.g. music, bosses or quests)

As for the new capes you'll likely have completed t1 skills, lore and combat (with some progress towards t2), but you need to fully earn the t1 areas and activities metas to start in the new system. Likewise a trimmer will have some decent coverage in t2 (and even a few t3 ones), but still having a lot of work, just to earn t2 comp. Both under the assumption they just did the stuff for their capes and nothing else.

If you want to start working towards the new capes you might want to complete non-cape achievements that already are ingame. Otherwise it probably wouldn't hurt to look for a true trimmer's list and complete the stuff mentioned on those.
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11-Apr-2019 06:22:03 - Last edited on 11-Apr-2019 06:27:16 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Including a list of missing unlockables/completables. Simple cheevos for fun actions are nice, but actual doable stuff should have priority:

Skills

- Earn all possible experience in the Empty Throneroom
- Add achievements for clearing all shortcuts
- Unlock all expert capes
- Learn the 'Cremation' ability
- Build every crossbow hidey-hole and rope rack (Construction)
- Create all boons (Divination)
- Obtain all pets bought from Marmaros or Bryll (Dungeoneering)
- Buy the full Acolyte of Seiryu and Sakadagami sets (Dungeoneering)
- Buy every upgrade and recipe at the Elite Dungeon Reward Shop (Dungeoneering)
- Unlock all pets, titles and personal upgrades at the Player-owned farm (Farming)
- Fully upgrade your Spring cleaner (Invention).
- Discover all Blueprints (Invention)
- Complete the Nexus (Prayer)
- Unlock 'Malevolence', 'Desolation' and 'Affliction' (Prayer)
- Learn all social slayer abilities (Slayer)
- Buy Squidge, Runtstable and Freezy with all his skins (Slayer)
- Finish a ceremonial sword with 80/100 % and earn the one-timed smithing xp rewards (Smithing) (Still a thing?)
- Fully upgrade your loot bag (Thieving)
- Add an achievement for obtaining the sandy title and its sub requirements (Menaphos)

Combat:

- Complete every course at the combat academy with champion/hero/legend rank
- Earn 50/250/500 boss training points
- Complete 100/200 reaper tasks and earn Death's scythe and Tiny Death
- Defeat the Ragged Abomination 1/5/10/25/50/75/100 times. Include it in Soul Reaper and add a Collection Log, requiring a Dragon Full Helm, Draconic Visage, Abomination Cape and Dragon Javelins. Consider adding a boss pet.
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13-Apr-2019 06:14:48 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2019 06:59:16 by Rikornak

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- Defeat the Giant Mimic 1/5/10/25/50/75/100 times. Add an achievement to defeat it once in elite mode. Add a collection log, which requires the mimic pet, helm, plushie, tongue cape and all six shard tokens.
- Unlock a Revenant pet.
- Fully upgrade your Revenant pet.
- Finish off Vorago in every hardmode rotation and earn the full outfit of omens

Lore:

- Break the counter in the body room during or after elemental workshop III
- Tell Gwir about all your exploits after Plagues' End
- Tell Derni, Dernu and Miodvetnir about all your exploits after King of the Dwarves
- Tell Ali the Barman about the poisoned drink after The Feud
- Unlock the archmage title

Activities:

Add fitting sub-categories to activities with a sufficient amount of achievements.

- Earn the ability to purchase Castle Wars flag and kill capes
- Earn the ability to purchase a Castle Wars hobbyist cape
- Unlock every cabbage facepunch ability
- Add Ava's device to the castle wars and soul wars capes (Obsolete?)
- Obtain an abyssal hound pet
- Fully upgrade your anima pet
- Kill 1600 bosses in rumble mode and unlock the extreme dominion medallion
- Survive for 45 minutes in a 4 or 5 player rumble mode in the Dominion Tower
- Unlock all Deathmatch titles and taunts
- Unlock the ability to create ancient teletabs
- Unlock the ability to buy atrocious rogue gloves
- Unlock the ability to buy a supreme hunter's helm
- Unlock every demon flash mobs title
- Purchase every treasure trail title and the blue pet (Treasure trails)
- Train Meg as much as possible (Player-owned port) Commantary: The more often she returns from adventures, the more experienced she gets, being reflected in her examine.
- Unlock every special crew isle in POP (Player-owned port)
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13-Apr-2019 06:15:48 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2019 07:00:03 by Rikornak

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Miscellaneous:

Since they're no longer required for any comp cape it could be extremely free of how to design.

- Upgrade your completionist cape by using a spirit cape on it (Obsolete?)
- Find every goblin mail hidden in the goblin village
- Complete the book case with all permanent books
- Unlock the full potential of Sliske's Parody
- Open every door in Enakhra's temple
- Earn 'The Real MVP' and 'The Real Struggle' titles from participating in challenge gems
- Earn 15/25 Event cards from participating in JMod-hosted events and claim your free experience lamps
- Complete 500/1000/1500/2000 achievements - Title reward: n, the overachiever
- Add an obligatory 'Over 9000' achievement for RuneScore
- Get the maximum possible discount for recharging crystal items
- Deliver Longramble some tangled toad legs
- Get caught 100 times in the Ape Atoll Prison and receive your reward
- See all doomsayer warning messages often enough to toggle them
- Teleport to each fairy ring once
- Obtain a cornucopia
- Obtain an ectoplasmator
- Obtain a deployable herb burner
- Obtain an adrenaline urn
- Kick your large gnomeball 50/250/500/1000/2000 times and unlock the respective variants. 5 RuneScore per tier
- Have a chat with every NPC formerly involved with a random event. Reward: Ring of Random
- Unfurl all 28 flags in the max guild garden
- Claim the free perfect juju potions from Lady Meilyr
- Watch a stream and obtain Twitchy
- Unlock the 'May-or-may-not-be' title

Ambigious:

- Defeat Hollowtoof once. (Combat or Activities)
- Replay Sliske's Endgame and earn your Agent of the Eldest outfit (Misc or Lore)
- Repair 100 light orbs in Dorgesh-kaan and earn your firemaking reward (Firemaking, Lore or Misc).
- Claim all free ushabtis from Aiza (Slayer or misc)
- Unlock Raptor's Basic Outfit (Slayer or Combat)
- Unlock the ability to carry nine black crystals (Slayer or Combat)
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13-Apr-2019 06:16:22 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2019 07:02:55 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Most of the stuff is T2 material, albeit some will certainly qualify for T3

Some existing achievements could need adjustments:

- Include the 'The Faraway Place where Things are Kept' dungeon in 'Very Resourceful'. It's a resource dungeon, which grants an one-timed reward for entering it the first time.
- Include the scroll of gathering in 'Scrolling with Power'.
- Change the drop rates of the dungeoneering journals 16-20 to reasonable levels and include them in 'Miscellaneous Notes'
- Change the defeat the phoenix achievement for Lore to 'Talk with the phoenix about Si'morgh' - increase RuneScore reward accordingly. The comp cheevo will remain as is.
- Allow the old diary found in a crate near the odd old man after defeating the skeletal horror once to be added to the bookcase of a POH. Make reading it a requirement of the 'Lovingly Crafted' achievement, as it is also part of the horrors lore.
- Some fix for 'Catching some Rays': Consolidate the regular and ironman variants to a single version, that can be completed by both kinds of players by catching a manta ray either in the fishing trawler minigame or the deep sea fishing hub. As ironmen can catch rays via the hub now, they shouldn't have a different variant of the achievement anymore, which drastically increases the requirements over the regular variant. As the hub is fairly close to ardougne, it also shouldn't collide with the theme of the achievement diary.
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13-Apr-2019 06:17:00 - Last edited on 14-Apr-2019 07:02:31 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Cb555 said:
...


As for 1: What actually is known is that there are some passive combat stats assigned to both combat tier 1 and 2 and some other kind of benefit to tier 1 skills and lore (whatever this might be). Areas and activities, tier 2/3 lore/skills and t3 combat do not have any benefits assigned currently. Certain former rewards that were linked to specific capes and unified under comp just seem to become passive as soon as you unlock them (e.g. ava's device after animal magnetism).

As for me the reward side looks fairly fine, albeit some benefit for activites might not hurt - for areas it somewhat is the task set. Maybe it could be entirely passive (except for operating based stuffs) as soon as you got t2 areas done?

1/3: I personally think they should try to get ambigious (that could be part of multiple categories) requirements into one distinct category as a single achievement shouldn't be able to block multiple capes horizontally. The problem is basically everything could be covered with skills as most activities, combat, quests,... make use of skills. Likewise tons of contents are at least indirectly locked behind quests so it would automatically be needed to be lore achievements. Most minigames also heavily feature either skills or combat - they practically could dissolve that category and put the bit remainder into misc - and so on and so on...

Generally I think Activities and Areas should have the most distinct definition (i.e. using a skill or fighting in a specific context), while Combat and Skills are more vague (just doing your stuff). Lore is lore and misc is everything not fitting somewhere else.

2: The story mode basically solves the issue with lore related content locked behind hard PvM. The AoD lore book would be a massive issue for lore related content if it wasn't massable. Since you can't obtain killcount in story mode it's more of a fix for lore based achievements rather than combat.
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21-Apr-2019 07:03:28 - Last edited on 21-Apr-2019 07:07:41 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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It might not hurt if they could press on working that list - both by including the existing stuff into the tier system as well as introducing new unlockable requirements - also as achievements ingame for now - over time. That also would help to prevent some nasty surprises for specific players when the thing is finally released. Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
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21-Apr-2019 07:06:39 - Last edited on 21-Apr-2019 07:08:24 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Hupw said:
...


The important thing is you do no longer need to traverse the completionist path. A pure fighter isn't (likely) interested in the benefits the skiller and lore cheevos might bring to you - they just do whatever quest or skill is needed for them. A lorehound isn't in need of the combat boost the combat cape might bring (doesn't matter now if t1 would just contain all soloable bosses and a distinct player would fail somewhere there or actual the current full reaper with players being blocked due to group bosses). Yes of course always nice to have, but not actually needed.

Unless you want all benefits at once you just could ignore specific paths and just show you're a t3 skiller, lorehound or fighter - or if you want you could actually do all at once and show that you're a completionist. Or you could say you don't care for the new system at all and just get one of the current capes with random requirements. I could fairly well imagine that some of the current (non-trimmed) completionist will just focus on their path in the future - abandoning the benefits of other paths - but no longer obliged to engage with stuff they don't like.

Those players are not completionists - they're fighters, lorehounds or skillers - and when those players do no longer pursue content they do not like I actually could imagine the new completionist capes to be a fair share rarer than the current ones. I even could imagine there will be players who just do stuff, which gives them benefits - also not compers.
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23-Apr-2019 07:18:07 - Last edited on 23-Apr-2019 07:37:22 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Christbaum said:
Hey,

have i understood it right, that everyone with 99 in a skill can wear a Skilling-Cape (and recolour it)?

And with the normal Quest-Cape i can get the Tier 1 Cape, right (41:32 in the video)?

Greetings


The Quest Cape literally is the new tier 1 lore cape, akin to the MQC is the new tier 2 lore cape (with slightly reduced requirements).

As for skill capes it's a bit different - there are the skill capes as you know them for a single 99, there are expert capes for having 99s in a set of skills, there is the max cape (see this as the tier 0 skills cape) for all 99s, there is the tier 1 skills cape for being literally maxed (all 99s + 120s where applicable) and then t2/3 with additional requirements on top of that.
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23-Apr-2019 11:13:45

Rikornak

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Hupw said:
...


Yes - you need specific quests, you need specific skills and you need specific minigames for pvm - but the very important thing - but in neither category you wouldn't need everything anymore. You got every relevant dungeoneering unlock chipped aways long before you hit level 120, you don't need level 120 invention and you do not need level 120 slayer - with the 99s it looks similar - prayer, herblore, summoning, smithing and obviously the combat skills are everything you need at 99 right now - for the remainder you got everything relevant at a point before that. Also one important difference - you usually only need to obtain it once, it doesn't need any maintenance after you obtained it - replacing consumables also is easier than unlocking them in the first place.

As for quests - what do you need: Obviously curses, prif and a couple of nice unlocks every now and then - but once again: Some quests offer irrelevant rewards and aren't needed for higher levelled quests, which might for themselves have something potentially interesting. You can absolutely feel free to ignore them then if you're not interested in a lore cape.

Minigames are even more extreme - let's face it: Most minigames do not have relevant rewards at all right now and you could absolutely feel free to ignore them if you don't need a specific reward for your style of play. For instance Castle wars - the sole reason I have to unlock it then would be a set of area achievements and one cheevo in each t1/2/3 minigames - that's it - if I don't care for minigame titles (and it extension higher tiered comp capes) I can fully ignore it. I win one game and fire a shot with the catapult and would have reaped everything relevant from it. It obviously isn't so extreme with all minigames that you would have to waste tons of time for absolutely nothing, but it serves as such a good example for that.
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23-Apr-2019 12:30:35 - Last edited on 23-Apr-2019 13:18:51 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Also one all time classic: I wouldn't need to have to bother getting the livid farm spells for a combat boost anymore - would save quite a bit of time if I do neither care for the spells nor t2+ activities metas. Certainly relevant unlocks - but does a specific player actually needs them? Do you or I need a 'Bones-to-peaches'-spell from MTA for your or mine style of play? The whole sequence can be continued for all minigames.

If you or I say no and do not do it in consequence we have disqualified ourself as a t2 minigamer (and once again in extension comper), but it wouldn't block anything on a distinct style of play - once more: Be it fighter, lorehound or skiller (of course restricting my set of tools available).

And yes - it works for each class of player - they will always need certain things from other categories - but certainly never everything - unless they want to call themselves comper - it's as easy as that. And if a players wants to traverse some other path at one point they easily could. They likely will at least have come into touch with it before.
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23-Apr-2019 12:31:53 - Last edited on 23-Apr-2019 12:50:39 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Hupw said:
...


You've used an important word in here: Significant, but not encompassing. My thesis was players engage (sufficiently) in content that provides them the tools they might need in other places. What those tools actually are differs from player to player, but you certainly wouldn't need a total level of 2736 to be at your peak efficiency considering some skills wouldn't even offer something remotely useful for combat in the first place - yes of course you want a player at that specific level right now, but that just is because the cape dictates them to be, the very same thing with 406 quest points.

Of course a player having done more will always be in a better position when the meta shifts - and this is good, that this is rewarded. It always could happen that a specific irrelevant quest either gets new rewards added retroactively or will be required for a quest, which will offer relevant rewards - likewise with skills. But - it also could go the other way around: A spefic skill level could be needed by something that is meta, but that could always be shaken by a new introduction or a change of existing content. Ironically the comp rework would be an example for this - lowering a needed total level of 2736 to something below that and the very same thing with quests.

But generally - yes the paths are interlaced with one another, but generally the players are given more freedom for what they'd like to do (or at least gives them something they'd need). They will engage in different content that gives them something useful, but some won't charge anymore into content they're neither interested in, nor offering them a relevant reward. The big advantage is since it wouldn't cause any trouble on their path those players will no longer spoil it for players who actually enjoy it. Of course - if their path is completiotism there will be no way around it eventually. Once more in here - don't just take a look at fighters.
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23-Apr-2019 17:40:59

Rikornak

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Don't get me wrong in here - I am not in support of slackers, who do not like to engage into anything, that might not fit their style of play. But I certainly would prefer it when players get a specific skill level for an helpful unlock, do a quest for some awesome reward - or do some minigame or boss for a specific reward - instead of doing either of them just to get a requirement checked off on their cape for a totally unrelated bonus.

But the new system will certainly be more punishing in that aspect - whereas new content currently is at best acknowledged with an update to existing achievements (quests, bosses, music,...) and sometimes new non-comp achievements, those very same things will become requirements for their respective capes after a while. It might be interesting to see if some of the current compers will stay compers or just focus on one or multiple paths in the new system to be honest. Simply given the freedom they'll have then.

I personally might do a lot of content that isn't even featured as an achievement, but I totally can understand when players do not want to this just for some arbritary reason - once more no matter what this content looks like.
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23-Apr-2019 17:46:09 - Last edited on 23-Apr-2019 17:58:20 by Rikornak

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DarkNihility said:
I like the idea of adding group and exploration/area capes in with the bunch.

My ideas on a "group" cape:
Strip all the group requirements from all the capes and throw them on this cape. This could have different tiers like the other proposed capes.

My ideas on a "exploration/area" cape:
Working towards something other than combat and quests/lore would be fun and rewarding. It would comprise the achievement diaries (as they were called) and the rest of the achievements on the "exploration" tab. Something for people to work towards that doesn't necessarily have to be related to comp or trim. For example, players who don't own comp could achieve this cape, or even players who currently own comp but don't think they could grasp trim. Both sets of players could set this as a goal, and be accoladed.


Your first idea would basically be encompassed by the plan of having 'heroic' (i.e. trimmed or t.5 capes) combat and comp capes. They haven't added it to their design document yet, but you can read about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/bgm1s7/tldw_431_general_qa_comp_cape_ninja_updates_etc/

Basically you'd achieve the t1 combat (and comp with all other t1s) by killing the less problematic bosses (that's not just solak, aod or raids, but also stuff like telos), while you'd achieve t1.5 combat (+ comp with all other t1s) by killing the remainder of the set. It likewise will work with t2 and t3 - you gain the base cape by doing the not as difficult stuff, while the trim comes from more brutal stuff - it's entirely possible that t3.5 combat and comp will require the golden warden title for instance.

As for the second: I'd be happy if they were to add recoloured quest capes for areas and activities as suggested by Lord Drakan. I doubt a recolour should be more problematic than a trim for those heroic capes.
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25-Apr-2019 06:39:39 - Last edited on 25-Apr-2019 06:46:09 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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Sigmarthus said:
Remove mini-game and all group actions from comp cape please. We need to be able to achieve the cape solo or otherwise it's going to impossible because we won't be able to find anyone willing to spare the time to start things like mini-games and dead-content bosses down the line.

The cape then becomes unachieveable to anyone who didn't already have it. It needs to not only be theoretically possible, but statistically probable to anyone trying to earn it and for them to always have the means to do so - and that means restricting it to solo mode.

To compensate, add Solo versions to Solak and Vorago if you must. Comping should only mean completing any and all solo-activity and should discount group activity for both the above, and below reasons.

Just don't force us into groups, because that runs the issue of comping becoming impossible down the line, something we already face today with certain minigames we can't start without enough players.


You might want to read this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/bgm1s7/tldw_431_general_qa_comp_cape_ninja_updates_etc/

TLDR: Problematic bosses (they mentioned Vorago, AoD, Solak and Telos so far) are transfered to a T1.5 combat and comp cape, while you still would need to kill the remainder for T1

As for minigames - if you're not interested in minigames, you're not a completionist - you're a fighter, a lorehound or a skiller, maybe all of them combined - but you certainly wouldn't be a comper - and except for some cosmetic you no longer wouldn't need to be - just focus on the paths you like and you still get every passive benefit (since minigames have none) - in the end you'd just lack the comp skin/title.

The question is - would players be less interested in some high tier comp cape than they're in trimmed now? If not, what would actually change compared to status quo?
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27-Apr-2019 06:39:28

Rikornak

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DarkNihility said:
Jagex, u bring up in your videos about adding the passive combat boosts to existing capes to add up to (or past) the current comp cape stats. You keep mentioning the kiln capes, but you've seemed to overlook that the comp cape is an all styles cape, whereas the kiln capes are single style (melee, range, and mage). There is no equivalent all style cape. The kiln capes give +31 bonus to their respective style. The closest all style cape would be the max cape, only giving +26 in melee, mage, and range. The current comp cape gives +43. So unless you make a new all style cape, players who lose their current comp cape will only have to rely to the kiln capes as a best in slot option, with no all style option.


This part is a bit of speculation of me, but I could imagine, that the regular skill and max capes will remain intact. It could be that you'll be able to replicate the current comp cape with a max cape + combat boost, while using the kiln capes would offer superior single style stats. And honestly - the loss of 5 points of stats for having the other two styles enabled isn't *that* bad as a cost. If it is - get all kiln capes. If they were to actually nullify the max cape without providing some kind of replacement, that would really be an issue to be honest though.

Also what is important - kiln capes just are t70 items - they have 22 tiers to introduce better capes than those in new (or even existing) content. And since the cape slot will matter again this will eventually happen. I don't think that this cape rebalancing done a few weeks ago was done without a reason.
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30-Apr-2019 05:22:50 - Last edited on 30-Apr-2019 05:27:25 by Rikornak

Rikornak

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S 1 M O N said:
UrekMazino said:
60 pages of feedback on RSOF, tonnes more from Reddit and Discord, months of working on the design and rework doc. End result? Scrap all that, just remove the 2 reqs that people are whining about and call it a day.

Well I guess this whole endeavour was just one big farce huh?


You have summed up the collective thinking of everyone who wasn't moaning about it.


It's a foul deal, certainly a step forward from the current broken mess, but in comparison to what could've been - especially with those trimmed capes for combat and comping... a foul deal.

I know they're dead, but maybe it'd be best first the sort out the issues with the current capes and then introduce ones for achievement milestones - and call the comp capes in that proposal grand achiever or something like that. Then that what would've been legacy capes could be additional milestones solely focused on completables.
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15-May-2019 06:25:33

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