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A question about Zaros

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Padomenes
Apr Member 2015

Padomenes

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Hguoh said:
So all you've got is an unsubstantiated hypothetical that runs contrary to everything we've had that tells us that any surviving Zarosians couldn't openly practice their religion in Saradominist lands. Besides, we have good reason to suspect that Saradomin went in guns blazing (Torva's passage of the Virtus Book).

And why do you think those disagreement's happen? Because the only difference between conquering a people and 'liberating' them is the narrative constructed after the fact.

Also, equality? These are the events that led to the 3rd age, remember? The time period when Saradomin's own empire adopted the policy of prioritizing golem limbs for Icyene over humans. Besides, I'm pretty sure people in capitalist nations (most if not all democracies) would be quite against a communist force coming into their country to spre
[/quote][/quote][/quote]And how can such a large population of humans practice a religion in 'secrecy' without being noticed? Most likely you would have had the occasional drafting despite that and them being made to comply with Saradomin's regulations/laws despite being allowed to keep their religion to a certain degree. With acceptance of him as their ruler 'despite worship of a dead god'. If anything worshipping Zaros was just seen as 'futile'.

Saradomin also owned a territory(East Kandarin, South Asgarnia, Hallowvale and Entrana merely) that was smaller than the Zarosian Empire so where did all his extra humans come from? Other than the same way Zamorak got them?

Also how did the inequality ended in areas of the Zarosian Empire that joined Saradomin however? What if some of the way they did things had something to do? Since Saradominism is about prioritising 'Order' over 'Growth' in core values. While Zamorak would have been kind of an Anarchist, wanting 'competition for resources' without laws ensuring a tight confined space to compete in.
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16-Sep-2017 18:20:16

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Padomenes said:
Saradomin also owned a territory(East Kandarin, South Asgarnia, Hallowvale and Entrana merely) that was smaller than the Zarosian Empire so where did all his extra humans come from? Other than the same way Zamorak got them?


Saradomin introduced humans from Teragard to many different places, he easily could have and would have gone back to some of those places to gather extra troops and workers to help with his war effort on Gilenor and populate his newly claimed land.

Also I'm pretty sure you're pulling the entire line about "Saradomin was trying to peacefully take over the remaining Zarosians and still letting them worship Zaros within his empire" completely out of your ass, this is what the Wiki page about the Gielinorian God Wars (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Gielinorian_God_Wars#Major_conflicts) has to say about the matter:
"Zarosian Extermination - In an attempt to completely cover up the existence of Zaros, the forces of Zamorak and Saradomin laid waste to his settlements and fortresses and established new settlements, such as Saranthium after the Fall of Senntisten, on top of the ruins. Zaros' followers were also systematically hunted down and either converted or killed; many went into hiding in the fortress of Ghorrock and others fled to the Kharidian Desert, where they currently live as bandits still deeply loyal to their god."
Saradomin was a key factor in ensuring that any knowledge of Zaros didn't remain, by destroying the buildings of and killing any still loyal to Zaros that wouldn't convert to him.
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16-Sep-2017 21:52:15

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
And how can such a large population of humans practice a religion in 'secrecy' without being noticed? Most likely you would have had the occasional drafting despite that and them being made to comply with Saradomin's regulations/laws despite being allowed to keep their religion to a certain degree. With acceptance of him as their ruler 'despite worship of a dead god'. If anything worshipping Zaros was just seen as 'futile'.


I never said that a large population continued practicing Zarosianism in secret in Saradominist society. We know that the majority of practicing Zarosians had been pushed back to Senntisten. We know that when Senntisten fell whilst beset by the armies of Zamorak and Saradomin, the able bodied Zarosian were forced to flee northward, and we are given ample reason to suspect that the Zarosians who were unable to make the journey were killed off during the conquest of the city.

We also know that by the time the God Wars were over, only a hundred or so Zarosians remained and had continued to be attacked by the armies of the other gods. And we know that the last practicing Zarosians passed away when Varrock was still Avarrocka.

Remember the analogy I told you? You submit to the new rulers (the ones who were fully incorporated), you leave the life you knew behind (the ones who fled), you pay the new regime lips service (the group that practiced their religion in secret), or you are killed (the ones left in Senntisten who were incapable of journeying north).

By the time the remaining Zarosians attempted the lattermost option, only a hundred or so of them remained. But I'm sure you'd like to pretend Saradomin had absolutely nothing to do with the attacks on them at all (despite him assaulting Senntisten, his forces imprisoning Nex and her army (never mind that she was fighting for control over the Ritual Stone with Zamorakian forces))

16-Sep-2017 23:09:50

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
Saradomin also owned a territory(East Kandarin, South Asgarnia, Hallowvale and Entrana merely) that was smaller than the Zarosian Empire so where did all his extra humans come from? Other than the same way Zamorak got them?


He acquired a larger stretch of territory with ample resources available to him. He inevitable converted a portion of the Zarosian Empire, but I'd attribute a large chunk of his population growth to humans breeding like rabbits in the expectation that many of their offspring would die off (as per the norm in ancient times) only to find that they were able to successfully raise more children with the larger amount of resources available to them (also a phenomenon observed through history). Also, people tend to be much more willing to 'convert' to the new regime when their alternative is the point of a sword.

Granted that's all speculation, but, then again, so is what you are saying. In both scenarios, some Zarosians convert (willingly, legitimately, or otherwise) and are incorporated into the empire, while those who refused were killed or made to be displaced (the things we've been told by mods or in game). I'm just less inclined to cast Saradomin in such a bright white light.

16-Sep-2017 23:29:23

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
Also how did the inequality ended in areas of the Zarosian Empire that joined Saradomin however? What if some of the way they did things had something to do? Since Saradominism is about prioritising 'Order' over 'Growth' in core values. While Zamorak would have been kind of an Anarchist, wanting 'competition for resources' without laws ensuring a tight confined space to compete in.


The inequality didn't end. All you did was swap out demons, vampyres and mahjarrat for Icyene. The humans were treated as more disposable and less valuable investments than the Icyene (The Song from Before the War). All you did is change from a model incorporating literal predation and discouraging (albeit ineffectually) actual deaths by consumption (Drakan not being allowed to fully drain the human subject's blood, and the laws against consuming humans) to a model that fully enabled and encouraged metaphorical predation on a much larger scale.

Hey, come fight with us to secure Gielinor for Saradomin. Sure, you'll likely die achieving almost nothing. As will your children, their children, and their children. And even if you manage to survive horribly maimed, we can't afford to allocate the resources to take care of those who sacrificed everything for us. Oh, and we'll come and take advantage off your youths' libidos to recruit them to fight the same war you did and treat them exactly the same as we did you.

You want to reach a high ranking military or government position, well bully for you. If you aren't an Icyene or a similarly long lived race, you simply can't possibly have the vision to comprehend the nuances of a millennia long war and your input will be disregarded. But wait, if you really want to advance in the military, we can use you in our black ops suicide squad, I mean honor guard, that are brainwashed, I mean trained, to sacrifice themselves in order to accomplish whatever goal they think Saradomin wants.

17-Sep-2017 00:01:35

Padomenes
Apr Member 2015

Padomenes

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Hguoh said:
Padomenes said:
Saradomin also owned a territory(East Kandarin, South Asgarnia, Hallowvale and Entrana merely) that was smaller than the Zarosian Empire so where did all his extra humans come from? Other than the same way Zamorak got them?


He acquired a larger stretch of territory with ample resources available to him. He inevitable converted a portion of the Zarosian Empire, but I'd attribute a large chunk of his population growth to humans breeding like rabbits in the expectation that many of their offspring would die off (as per the norm in ancient times) only to find that they were able to successfully raise more children with the larger amount of resources available to them (also a phenomenon observed through history). Also, people tend to be much more willing to 'convert' to the new regime when their alternative is the point of a sword.

Granted that's all speculation, but, then again, so is what you are saying. In both scenarios, some Zarosians convert (willingly, legitimately, or otherwise) and are incorporated into the empire, while those who refused were killed or made to be displaced (the things we've been told by mods or in game). I'm just less inclined to cast Saradomin in such a bright white light.
And howcome it was hinted that surviving Zarosians including converts were responsible for him acquiring say the knowledge to make things such as the holy water deadly to vampyres?

In the tweet it's implied that a large amount were allowed to live and eventually all of them converted to Saradomin, most specifically there were many in Avorrocka. Amelia was one of the last members of the religion but they were larger before until converting to Saradominism after the third age ended or in the middle of it.
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17-Sep-2017 00:32:08

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
And howcome it was hinted that surviving Zarosians including converts were responsible for him acquiring say the knowledge to make things such as the holy water deadly to vampyres?.


Zamorak killed their god. The vampires and demons largely stayed with Zamorak. A better question would be why wouldn't they have given Saradomin those things? Also, it's not like Saradomin couldn't have gotten the information from texts in the empire (it did have the highest rate of literacy on Gielinor at the time).

And again, I don't deny that some Zarosians converted (some from fear of death, some legitimately wanting to join Saradominist society). I just don't wear the rosy glasses you seem to when you assume the majority did.

Padomenes said:
In the tweet it's implied that a large amount were allowed to live and eventually all of them converted to Saradomin, most specifically there were many in Avorrocka. Amelia was one of the last members of the religion but they were larger before until converting to Saradominism after the third age ended or in the middle of it.


Amelia was one of the last members descended from the group that fled Senntisten after Saradomin teamed up with Zamorak to forcibly conquer it, the last hundred of which were 'harried on every side by the armies of the lesser gods, and,' and pay attention to this now Pads, 'forced to keep our [their] faith secret.'

I really can't see how you can interpret that as anything other than persecuting individuals based on following Zaros over another god up to and including Saradominist forces and territories.

Plus, we see that attitude perpetuated into modern times with the majority people treating Zaros like a lord Voldamort figure being Saradominists.

17-Sep-2017 00:47:45 - Last edited on 17-Sep-2017 00:51:06 by Hguoh

MystLunaris

MystLunaris

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Although not really related to any of the discussions at hand, just to show off Saradomin's infamous personality and wisdom "Eventually Saradomin took notice of Gielinor and decided to set foot on it. Descending on Entrana Saradomin encountered the Sleeper who gave him the warning. Saradomin didn't listen to it and submerged it in the ocean by the northwest coast silencing it." -http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Entrana#History 99-120 Skill content,Skilling boss ideas,Talents,God Emissary D&D/Minigame,Vampyric and Elven tech trees

17-Sep-2017 15:26:34

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