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My Thoughts on The Godless

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Wacky N Fat
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Wacky N Fat

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OK. Some of you here may be aware of my thoughts on The Godless, and I even once tried to make a thread about it, but it was locked and subsequently eaten by Chewy because it was "flamebait" and "inciting violence" or something.

The title -- "I Think The Godless Are Stupid," was perhaps an issue, but I maintained I kept my posts constructive. As a result, I think that it's acceptable for me to try and make this thread again, with a more civil title.

(If this is not the case and even constructive criticism of factions is unacceptable, then, well, slap me thrice and hand me to my Momma OK lock this thread. I would hope that wouldn't be the case, however.)

Aight! Please let me finish this thread before posting. I will post a "You may now post!" post when I'm done. Thanks! :)
The best things in life are hidden. You have to seek them out! :D

03-Sep-2016 22:24:31

Wacky N Fat
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Wacky N Fat

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I think the entire concept and idea behind the Godless is completely flawed and, quite frankly, bad storytelling on Jagex' part.

The Godless intend to rid the world of "Gods," right?

Well, a "God" in RuneScape is basically a really, really powerful leader -- one that represents a cause, philosophy, or fights for an idea -- with the minor clause that there is a threshold between where one is a "mortal" (because Gods are technically mortal by some means, too), and where one is a "God." This threshold basically says that anyone beyond the threshold does not get to live on in the afterlife, rather they explode into divine energy and turn into a rock, or whatever (as opposed to anyone before the threshold, where someone goes into the afterlife).

Well, I'll get to the threshold later. First, let me address the "powerful leader" bit.

The thing is, take away the Gods, and you'll still have powerful leaders. You'll still have leaders standing for causes, and those leaders trying to amass more and more power to further their cause, and you'll still have the followers willing to fight and (in some cases) die for their cause, etc.

You'll still have destruction, and you'll still basically have Gods. They won't be "Gods" in the sense that they may not have crossed that threshold, but they'll still be the most powerful beings around. It doesn't matter how much or how little power someone has, if comparatively, there is nothing beyond them. They will still be respected and/or feared for their power, as they will be above the collective majority.

This has been seen in Gielinor's own history, where beings like Hazeel are worhsipped by a cult, and other leaders who seek to and eventually do amass power for their cause are also followed and revered by followers and believers of their cause(s) (see: Kings and Queens).
The best things in life are hidden. You have to seek them out! :D

03-Sep-2016 22:37:17 - Last edited on 03-Sep-2016 22:53:50 by Wacky N Fat

Wacky N Fat
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Wacky N Fat

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Now, as far as The Godless and the threshold go --

The Godless, wanting to eliminate anything and everything beyond that threshold, but being OK with anything and everything below it, are basically just setting a standard for the amount of destruction that is "acceptable" and the amount of destruction that is "unacceptable."

Think about it:

The Godless, in the end, just want to prevent mass-scale destruction. Right? Because "that's what Gods do." So, they're using the threshold between mortality and Godhood to represent the line between how much destruction is acceptable and how much isn't.

First of all, how can any being morally justify quantifying a certain amount of destruction as "acceptable"?

But beyond that -- Destruction is necessary. It is a necessary evil. You can't just magically eliminate any kind of destruction. Destruction is necessary for creation, for one (see: Invention, or really any other skill/pair of skills), but beyond that, destruction comes from disagreement. Disagreement breeds conflict, which breeds destruction. You can't create a world without disagreement, because we're all different.

Conclusively, the entirety of the idea behind The Godless is completely and utterly flawed, and therefore, is bad storytelling on Jagex' part.
The best things in life are hidden. You have to seek them out! :D

03-Sep-2016 22:46:26 - Last edited on 03-Sep-2016 23:02:04 by Wacky N Fat

Wacky N Fat
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Wacky N Fat

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I don't know where we can go from here or how this can be "fixed," but like... I don't know, man. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to shoot them out, but like... this has always bothered me, to my core.

I just think a better job could've been done with this entire thing. I'm OK with Guthix' character and I understand that characters are flawed and I understand his motivations and everything and that's fine, but for there to be so many people (NPCs and players alike) who just don't see this and are blind to the sheer impossibility of their cause, just bothers me. I had to say this. The first step to fixing a problem, is acknowledging the fact that it's there.

I hope this is an OK post for me to have made, and that nothing here was in violation of the RSOF rules. If there is something in direct violation of the RSOF rules, if possible, please let me know so that I can change it, rather than just locking the thread. If not, when you lock it, please counsel me on what was the unacceptable bit, and I'll re-make the thread without that.
The best things in life are hidden. You have to seek them out! :D

03-Sep-2016 22:50:56

Captain Lime
May Member 2019

Captain Lime

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Well, I for one like Saradomin the most out of all the gods, but there is a special place in my heart for the Godless, and here's why:

Your initial statement that Gods are just essentially very, very powerful leaders is incorrect.

Well, not really incorrect so much as only telling half the story. The Gods are so powerful of leaders that many believe that their opinions, no matter what they are, need to be the law of the land. The Godless (or, some of them. They're not a gestalt entity quite yet, but I believe this is pretty much the guiding principle) believe that nobody, no matter how awesome or terrible that opinion is, should be worshipped to the point that the followers of that person enforce those opinions, sometimes on the pain of death.

And if you look at it like that, it kinda starts to make sense, at least through the 21st Century Western lens. Even leaders in the modern day and age aren't able to enforce their opinions, they have to get a democratic majority first (at least in the west, and otherwise there is a lot of unhappiness).

The other half of the Godless is that they don't generally want to get rid of destruction, just wanton destruction. At a quick glance, the Gods have pretty much been bad news for Gielinor. They are the entities behind the Wilderness, the Desert, the Afterlife being dangerous, and many major wars that ended society. Many of them (or just the more intelligent ones) realize that no, they'll never be able to rid the world of destruction and war, but the Gods have caused this in extreme excess.

However, that also misses the part that the Gods are responsible for some of the good things in the world. Guthix made sure it still existed, Saradomin helped create major guiding societal structures, Vasador helped inspire the Fremennik to be greater than they are, Icthlarin protects us in the Afterlife. Magic from Zaros. Runecrafting in general. The Godless may believe that the costs outweigh the benefits.
^ "Some of those words were
STUPID.
" - Mod Raven

03-Sep-2016 23:24:36 - Last edited on 03-Sep-2016 23:25:02 by Captain Lime

Adventurerrr
Jan Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Adventurerrr

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You misunderstand the Goal of the Godless. They want a world without beings that can bend reality, and the law of nature. They want to rid of those who won't fight their own battle. Yes They are "powerful" but not as you think of as "leaders" They are leaders in the matter of their own army, race and religion. What they are is powerful mortals that can't die from normal means. The Godless wish to rid of the gods' influence. Not a leader aspect. Look at the 5th age, what did we have? We had mortals free to do what they want, barely any wars that involved destruction like the lumbridge crater, death like Bird and beast, and dangerous world destroying beings such as Tuska. Take these powerful divine beings away and what do we have? The Fifth age all over again.

We'll have mortals once again living without a grand scale of destruction, without the deaths caused by the gods, and without their influence. Yes, we would still have powerful leaders like kings and queens, but they aren't GODS, they aren't worshipped, they don't have power that can wipe out an entire kingdom. They are mortals that run a kingdom to maintain peace and tranquility. Gods do not run like that. Some try to, but a lot run in matters of, it's either they know what's best, or no one does. Like the person above said, The Gods, and leaders of kingdoms are two different things. Think of it like religion irl; people follow a being with great power and what he says is the law. The Godless rebel that, not economic or kingdom leaders, just those who are religious and threaten the lives of the mortals on Gielinor, either they be a religious group, or the Gods themselves.
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04-Sep-2016 02:19:33 - Last edited on 04-Sep-2016 02:22:03 by Adventurerrr

A Mad Hatter
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Wacky N Fat said:

I hope this is an OK post for me to have made, and that nothing here was in violation of the RSOF rules. If there is something in direct violation of the RSOF rules, if possible, please let me know so that I can change it, rather than just locking the thread. If not, when you lock it, please counsel me on what was the unacceptable bit, and I'll re-make the thread without that.


Ya know, I do remember the last thread you mentioned about this, but I don't remember why it was locked (I may be remembering it wrong but I'm pretty sure the main issue was a flamewar that derailed the thread. Or the title was considered flamebait during a time when the mod team was trying to figure out what the hell they even wanted out of this forum. One of the two O_o).

I don't see anything wrong with the thread in the meantime, but I'll let you know if any lines are being crossed so we can keep it open.
---

As for the topic itself...I'll have to post later since I'm running behind on a few things atm. But you do have some good points that I haven't considered a whole lot.
^+^ Antediluvian of the Draculesti Bloodline ^+^

^+^ If the Gods see fit to curse us with the Blood, then we shall raise ourselves above them ^+^

04-Sep-2016 02:30:03

Aig123
Jun Member 2019

Aig123

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The general idea is to be rid of Gods, but we can already see two sides within the faction. Those still following the Guthixian mindset, balance and banishment. And then those who take matters into their own hands, regardless of the cost. Nomad for example.

Looking deeper, removing all Gods to preserve Gielinor seems flawed in itself. May as well remove anything with power to change the world despite the species and alignment.

Would the Godless sit back and let the Vampyres march into Misthalin as they are independant and therefore legitimate. Yet they would raise their swords to the Red Axe, as they are Zamorakian? Something seems off...

I'm also curious as to what assets the Godless have besides Vorago. Are they backed by a magical institute? Funded by Taverley druids or royalty? They don't appear well equipped to take on a God anyway, even the Dragonkin have had more progress Godslaying.

04-Sep-2016 06:53:47

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