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Desperate Times discussion?

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Lord Drakan
Sep Member 2010

Lord Drakan

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Dennorak said:
@Handkerchief

You're missing the point behind why SE and TWW are not requirements. At some point, every story quest Jagex releases can't be locked behind lengthy quest series with high requirements that only a small portion of the game can play. If they had to do that, the result would be even fewer quests than what we get because it's simply not a worthwhile investment in the game.

That's the point of "resetting" requirements, so to speak. It allows people to jump into a new quest series, and that's why the quest tried to refresh your memory of the events of The World Wakes to keep you caught on with what happened. They SUGGEST you do Sliske's Endgame for obvious reasons, but if the player wants to do Desperate Times before Sliske's Endgame, then that is their choice. Forcing players and as a result locking large portions of the player base out of content isn't a smart concept.

I keep hearing this, but I don't get it. As far as I know, quest requirements work encouragingly. Back in the day, when I saw a quest with many requirements (e.g. WGS), I didn't decide not to do it, I thought 'oh let's do all those quests then!' The more quest requirements there are, the more people quest. Of course it's a long-term thing. But for some reason only people doing the quest on release count?
Bizarre Boron Fusswell, scryer extraordinaire. Minigames & ninja fixes & achievement ideas!

Perhaps you're half right; perhaps we can't win. But we can fight.
— Zanik

18-May-2019 07:55:32

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Well apparently the reason we don't get many quests is because not many people participate in questing and I suppose Jagex removes quest requirements because they think it will get more people involved and justify the effort.

I know I moan about it constantly, but I really think skilling is the problem. It's boring. People generally don't want to do it. It's a barrier to content and one that a lot of people just don't want to pass. I mean it is kinda hard to justify spending months of boredom getting those skills up just for an hour or two of quest content, unless you're already invested in questing.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

18-May-2019 09:00:49

Ojacha
Apr Member 2019

Ojacha

Posts: 401Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I loved the quest. It was a great set-up for what's to come.

Although I'm not a great fan of the artwork cutscenes. The first one with Seren was actually decent. But then by the end when Kerapac steals the Needle all we get is narration. Like we went through all this stuff just to have someone tell us 'Oh and btw then this happened'. It reeks of 'show, don't tell' thing going on. I don't want someone to tell me what happened, I want to experience it myself. They also used the wrong staff of Armadyl in the artwork.

Other than that. Great quest with great twists. I love Kerapac's voice actor and hope to hear more of him in the future.
'If there is no one left to stand behind, then I will have to stand alone.'

18-May-2019 16:00:14 - Last edited on 18-May-2019 16:02:18 by Ojacha

Handkerchief
Jan Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Handkerchief

Posts: 689Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Drakan said:
I keep hearing this, but I don't get it. As far as I know, quest requirements work encouragingly. Back in the day, when I saw a quest with many requirements (e.g. WGS), I didn't decide not to do it, I thought 'oh let's do all those quests then!' The more quest requirements there are, the more people quest. Of course it's a long-term thing. But for some reason only people doing the quest on release count?

Yeah, exactly. They must look at completion rates within the first few days to judge how successful it's been.

And look, I get the initial rationale for the "reset", but my point is that we're well into the 6th Age now and it makes NO sense for new requirements to not start building up. They're the ones who've painted themselves into this corner by having quests that require a million others, creating a "chokepoint" for an important storyline, then going, "fuck, all these later quests don't make sense without having done this one, so we'll just tell everyone what happened," which is the stupidest fucking reaction imaginable if you're trying to get more people doing quests.

Their approach is completely back-asswards. In blog posts, news releases, video chats, etc, they've just told the entire plot in an attempt to entice people to jump in, and they don't give a shit when they jump in, they just want to boost the playthrough numbers for the next quest. And then they stick the "suggested quests" thing on there, so any player who cares about story is going to go do them first anyways. But the real issue is that any player who'd ignore that isn't the kind of person who's going to rush to do a new quest.
Continual disappointment is the spice of life.

18-May-2019 16:47:01 - Last edited on 19-May-2019 02:34:36 by Handkerchief

Handkerchief
Jan Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Handkerchief

Posts: 689Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hazeel said:
Well apparently the reason we don't get many quests is because not many people participate in questing and I suppose Jagex removes quest requirements because they think it will get more people involved and justify the effort.

I know I moan about it constantly, but I really think skilling is the problem. It's boring. People generally don't want to do it. It's a barrier to content and one that a lot of people just don't want to pass. I mean it is kinda hard to justify spending months of boredom getting those skills up just for an hour or two of quest content, unless you're already invested in questing.

Back in the day, when I was a nub, I honestly loved the thrill of having to wait and train up a skill or use crazy combinations of boosts to start one (for WGS, I used a spicy stew for a +5 herblore and a couple others as well). Once I passed the point of ever having to train for a quest again, or truly worry about a boss fight, the game died a little for me. That was also around the time of the precipitous drop-off in quest releases, so the game died a lot for me.

Really, what we need are more Experienced level quests that have a decent but not unwieldy set of requirements. Less of the be-all-end-all Grandmasters that they just... pretend happened for everyone. In all honesty, if they wanted to keep the Elder Gods storyline as a mid-level, more self-contained one I wouldn't mind. Grandmasters could be reserved for series-ending quests and not force awkward narrative decisions.

~~~~

It was definitely weird how Kerapac had become our buddy. I think he'll make a good villain. do you guys think he killed his son? Or did something to him?
Continual disappointment is the spice of life.

18-May-2019 17:04:19

Dennorak
May Member 2019

Dennorak

Posts: 4,398Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Lord Drakan said:
Dennorak said:
@Handkerchief

You're missing the point behind why SE and TWW are not requirements. At some point, every story quest Jagex releases can't be locked behind lengthy quest series with high requirements that only a small portion of the game can play. If they had to do that, the result would be even fewer quests than what we get because it's simply not a worthwhile investment in the game.

That's the point of "resetting" requirements, so to speak. It allows people to jump into a new quest series, and that's why the quest tried to refresh your memory of the events of The World Wakes to keep you caught on with what happened. They SUGGEST you do Sliske's Endgame for obvious reasons, but if the player wants to do Desperate Times before Sliske's Endgame, then that is their choice. Forcing players and as a result locking large portions of the player base out of content isn't a smart concept.

I keep hearing this, but I don't get it. As far as I know, quest requirements work encouragingly. Back in the day, when I saw a quest with many requirements (e.g. WGS), I didn't decide not to do it, I thought 'oh let's do all those quests then!' The more quest requirements there are, the more people quest. Of course it's a long-term thing. But for some reason only people doing the quest on release count?

I'm sure Jagex looks at how many people are doing the quest later on, but that doesn't mean the amount of people working their way up the requirements is satisfactory for the amount of effort that goes into questing. It's not like RuneScape has a ton of new players, most of its player base has been around a while. If they haven't gotten into questing now, releasing a new high tier quest likely isn't going to do much to motivate them.
Zamorakian Lorehound, Flame of Chaos member, Bilrach enthusiast

18-May-2019 17:05:15

Hauyne

Hauyne

Posts: 32Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hazeel said:

It was definitely weird how Kerapac had become our buddy. I think he'll make a good villain. do you guys think he killed his son? Or did something to him?


His son, Vicendithas, is still alive and well as of Curse of the Black Stone. Considering the scene in Desperate Times is in the past, he didn't kill him after all. He became our ally/friend over the course of a few quests (One of a Kind, Hero's Welcome, Curse of the Black Stone), that's a fair bit of development even though we're probably not as close as 'buddies'.

The thing about him being the villain is a bit...too basic, one good thing imo about Runescape lore is that they are often more nuanced and not black and white.

On the surface He's very powerful and wants to destroy Gielinor, so we set out to defeat him. That would work if it really is that simple. He wants to destroy Gielinor because he experienced the horror of the Elder Gods. The dragonkin are from the last revision, they tried bargaining with the Elder Gods and look at how they ended up. Kerapac just wants to avoid the same mistake.

On the other hand, there are villains like Lucien who's just power-hungry, and Sliske who's just bored. I do think that they are good villains though.

I really think they did Xenia dirty in Heart of Stone, let's just hope that they don't do the same to Kerapac. Because despite their actions, they really want to save the world. It makes no sense to make them the villain when the Elder Gods are.

(No, they are not innocent, Seren. They've destroyed worlds and enslaved an entire race. Zaros's and Kerapac's description of them being abusive parents is apt.)

21-May-2019 17:20:59 - Last edited on 21-May-2019 17:48:36 by Hauyne

A Mighty
Dec Member 2018

A Mighty

Posts: 2,229Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hauyne said:
Hazeel said:

It was definitely weird how Kerapac had become our buddy. I think he'll make a good villain. do you guys think he killed his son? Or did something to him?


His son, Vicendithas, is still alive and well as of Curse of the Black Stone. Considering the scene in Desperate Times is in the past, he didn't kill him after all. He became our ally/friend over the course of a few quests (One of a Kind, Hero's Welcome, Curse of the Black Stone), that's a fair bit of development even though we're probably not as close as 'buddies'.

The thing about him being the villain is a bit...too basic, one good thing imo about Runescape lore is that they are often more nuanced and not black and white.

On the surface He's very powerful and wants to destroy Gielinor, so we set out to defeat him. That would work if it really is that simple. He wants to destroy Gielinor because he experienced the horror of the Elder Gods. The dragonkin are from the last revision, they tried bargaining with the Elder Gods and look at how they ended up. Kerapac just wants to avoid the same mistake.

On the other hand, there are villains like Lucien who's just power-hungry, and Sliske who's just bored. I do think that they are good villains though.

I really think they did Xenia dirty in Heart of Stone, let's just hope that they don't do the same to Kerapac. Because despite their actions, they really want to save the world. It makes no sense to make them the villain when the Elder Gods are.

(No, they are not innocent, Seren. They've destroyed worlds and enslaved an entire race. Zaros's and Kerapac's description of them being abusive parents is apt.)


I'm in complete agreement with everything you said here. Kerapac should not be next in the Lucien/Sliske line of Jagex villains.
To those cursed by war and pest, Come into the light of Armadyl and rest. This is the law of Armadyl.

23-May-2019 20:45:48

Sepulchre
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,505Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I think something a lot of people forget is that... questlines don't need to have a villain.

We could just have a questline about trying to find a way to prove mortals worthy, with Kerapac being a player that we have to be aware of, because of his plans.
Arguably the most unique questline in the game, Elemental Workshop, doesn't even have a villain.. it doesn't even have a moving plot aside from "We unlock more and more rooms in the Workshop." and it works just fine.
Kerapac didn't need to become a villain anyway.
A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

24-May-2019 14:20:34

Solonduin
May Gold Premier Club Member 2016

Solonduin

Posts: 57Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
ok maby im being dumb but how can this quest not have mandatory requirments including endgame and the light within? how can seren exist before you restore her during the events of the ligh within. this whole quest just feels like a cheap way for jagex to introduce more mxt into the game and yet another bonus xp weekend I thoroughly enjoy questing for the lore and the dialoge and this whole quest just kinda pisses me off I feel like it devalues people who have worked hard to get the quest cape and followed the lore since it has literally zero requriments and yet seren is suddenly alive?? ok maby im beign stupid with my lore and ive missed somthing but im pretty sure seren only existed after the events of the light within at least in her coporal form? I mean come on jagex if your gonna release a quest based around somthing as massive as seren's retuern after she shattered herself into crystals to save her elves at least make it quests locked???

25-May-2019 20:01:46

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