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Partyhats on Treasure Hunter!!

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Blackwing

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DiskOfReturn said:
1. The drop rate should be available to everyone at all times, even if they get nerfed/buffed.

Won't happen if Jagex can decide voluntarily. There's a reason why they haven't revealed any of the drop rates in TH: having access to that kind of information allows the players to make more educated decisions, like calculating the average # of keys to win a specific prize. Of course it's not perfect since RNG is involved, but it's a lot better than having no numbers at all.

There's also the "get more keys now and your prize could be <displays 3 super rares>" marketing, which would be a lot less successful if it showed the true drop rates, e.g. 0.00001% chance to win 200m (probably higher than that but you should get the point).


DiskOfReturn said:
3. One should not be able to "buy" a p hat with real money, so no guaranteed wins on X spins.

Whether or not it'd be guaranteed changes nothing: if you can get a partyhat with real money, you can buy one with real money. It's simply predatory if it's random.


DiskOfReturn said:
5. Make sure old prices wont crash to the ground. Its alright and only logic if they drop a little but they cant be made worthless for obvious reasons. So perhaps different colours or just make them really rare to obtain (less likely then the 200m and perhaps make it so you need to collect 5-10 party hat pieces before you are able to make the party hat. Basically you would need to spend a lifetime of keys in order to unlock all the pieces. Since you can get 1 blue party hat piece and on your next super super super rare roll you might receive a purple party hat piece.)

It doesn't matter how rare you make them: a rerelease would cause dramatic price drops. Once something loses its discontinuity status, the historical value goes *poof*.
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16-Dec-2018 15:24:13

Blackwing

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To add to the above (ran out of space): different colors would be fine (genuinely different colors that is, not deceptive attempts to use a slightly different hex color code for example), but not through Treasure Hunter. TH is a predatory gambling machine that is going to face regulations in the future eventually, so both for future proofing and for the better of consumers, something like Solomon's store would be a much better option to put them to. In-game achievements even better.

EDIT:

@Jokku, when you have time and we're both online, could you PM me regarding this thread please? I have something that I'd prefer to handle privately.
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16-Dec-2018 15:24:19 - Last edited on 16-Dec-2018 15:33:11 by Blackwing

Blackwing

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DiskOfReturn said:
Well the whole qoute thing worked out great. :/

I don't trust Jagex, imo Jagex uses ways to manipulate prices themselfs. I wouldn't want Jagex to be in control of the party hat market to be honest. Whenever they like they could buff the drop rate without anyone knowing. NO TY

(Disclaimer: My post is more of a reply to what's written in your post rather than you personally.)

That last sentence really hits it home: when it comes to gambling like Treasure Hunter, unless you know the drop rates as well as that their integrity is intact (as in, that they haven't been tampered with, such as by them being overseen by regulations), Jagex could easily get away with manipulating the odds without the players' knowledge. Meanwhile, on a service like Solomon's store, you don't have that problem, because there's no randomness involved; you get what you want with guarantee, which is a lot more consumer-friendly than gambling (which is corporate-friendly and anti-consumer).

Now, some people might be gullible enough to just look at the game's developers and think "hey, they've made a pretty good base of a game, so there's no way they'd deceive us like that", but that's no guarantee of anything: even if the developers were good guys all around, they're not the ones who currently run RS3, they're just the "factory floor" workers now. The marketing team is what runs RS3 on a higher management level, and those folks don't care one bit about you as a person, only how to get as much money from you as possible (hence why MTX like TH exists). They don't have morals when it comes to selling RS3 to you, only the law is what stops them from doing even shadier practices than they already do.

continued in the next post
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16-Dec-2018 19:37:33

Blackwing

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continued from previous post

If the marketing team analyzed their internal data and thought that silently manipulating the odds of TH would increase their profits, they absolutely would do so, since how would anyone find out that they've done so? It'd either require an employee to leak it (illegally too most likely by the employee breaching their contract, and they'd still have to give proof as well), or a very large and detailed sample size from multiple players to solidly prove it, otherwise the marketing team could easily disregard the complaints with "maybe you just got lucky" (or unlucky, depends on the context), call it a case of confirmation bias and escape unscathed. A big enough sample size, let's say dozens of thousands of keys, would already be a big obstacle in itself as it's very expensive, let alone needing multiple people to do the same.

So, like they say about fire, Jagex is a good servant but a bad master; they can provide a good service through developing Runescape, but letting them do as they please will hurt all the players sooner or later, provided that the players don't quit too soon to find out how.

---

EDIT: Forgot about this:


Jokku23 said:
Blackwing said:
@Jokku, when you have time and we're both online, could you PM me regarding this thread please? I have something that I'd prefer to handle privately.

Sure 8)

Cheerio! > )
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16-Dec-2018 19:37:39 - Last edited on 16-Dec-2018 19:41:10 by Blackwing

Blackwing

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Immortalized said:
i think we should put rare components on TH and u can make old rares with them

they just need to be SUPER RARE purple items

that way you have to win super rare slot a lot of times to even create one

and it stops the items from being dead-end forever

Gambling with real money on a video game played also by underage players is bad enough; having to gamble multiple times to get the same output that would've only taken one gamble is even more predatory. Yeah, it would make it more difficult to get one with pure luck, but nobody wins in the end.

Much better for us players to just remove TH altogether and if really needed, come up with some other way of going about this, starting with finding a way that doesn't rerelease the original versions. > )
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27-Dec-2018 19:56:36

Blackwing

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Immortalized said:
well everything on th finds their way off th eventually

plus there's a limit to how many keys u can buy in a time frame

Right, so not only would gambling addicts (both existing ones and would-be ones) be ripped off for their money, but the hats would eventually become worthless if released in accordance to that "lifecycle" crap... a disaster followed by a disaster, no thanks.

And sure, there's a limit, but it's not a healthy one by any means. If Jagex truly cared, they'd not offer this "service" in the first place, negating the need to even think about a buy limit.
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29-Dec-2018 12:13:09

Blackwing

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Jokku23 said:
Ferraris are more expensive to produce than paper hats. It's not possible to give everyone a free Ferrari, but don't worry! Giving everyone free phats is possible!

It's also possible, both in real life and in-game, to produce infinite money with no cost, so because it's possible and everyone would want to be a billionaire, should we also give everyone a free billion?

No, not really. Everyone remembers what happened with Germany's hyperinflation after the first world war, yes? Not that we need to go there, since in RS3, money is already pretty worthless, partially thanks to Treasure Hunter handing out so many 200m gp prizes.


It's understandable to want to have fun, but for the long term health of the game, it's important to have fun responsibly; partyhats shouldn't be rereleased, and Treasure Hunter isn't good for anything. > )
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29-Dec-2018 12:13:13

Blackwing

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Whatusaytome said:
Blackwing, can you politely tell me what benefit Jagex is getting from Partyhats as they are? Because I don't think they get anything.

Greetings, Whatusaytome!

It seems you don't look beyond what's right in front of you: benefits can be both immediate and delayed. Jagex might get an immediate benefit by selling out something that people want right now, but typically that is at a detriment to their long term profits.

For an MMO to survive, it needs long term players; long term players need content to play, but also reassurance that the company (Jagex) cares about the long term health of the game, and thus about its loyal players. If they feel that the company is sacrificing the longevity of the game in order to turn a quick short term profit, they're likely to quit rather than risk staying on a game that is potentially gonna die, either completely or to a point where it's no longer worth playing.

Partyhats in their current state have as such become like a layer of foundation to the game; while they remain as they are, people are reassured that Jagex hasn't become desperate enough for money by selling them out. Their existence this way creates confidence in the playerbase, knowing that the game can still have a future. But if Jagex were to ruin the integrity of that foundation and sell them out, it'd be a sign of something having gone wrong, most likely the Chinese pushing harder for quick cash grabs, leading people into thinking that even worse sellouts would follow, and thus people would start abandoning the game.

So, to summarize: Jagex might be able to get more cash in the short term by selling out stuff like partyhats as MTX, but they'd lose more cash in the long term from decreased membership sales, from people losing their trust in Jagex's ability to maintain the longevity of the game.

What the new players will truly need are the auras, not optional cosmetics like partyhats.

Take care! > )
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29-Dec-2018 23:32:13

Blackwing

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Jokku23 said:
Whether something should be done or not is always a matter of opinion. First you assess if it's possible, then if the pros outweigh the cons. We believe that with partyhats on treasure hunter this is the case. Your point, "just because something is possible, doesn't mean it should happen", is well known amongst us.

Let me remind you before going further that Runescape is not an adult-only rated game; it's also targeted for underage players. With that in mind, Treasure Hunter is a gambling service that you can play with real money. We can argue all about whether it's a legally defined gambling service or not because "you always win something", but the fact remains that you can pay money for a chance to get something you want, but there's absolutely no guarantee, which is why "normal" gambling is regulated to protect the children from getting addicted to that.

As such, Treasure Hunter subjects said vulnerable players to gambling addiction, and you mean to tell me that it's worth it, so that more people can wear a pixel hat on their pixel character? What exactly even weighs it to be worth it to do this in your eyes? Is it a popularity contest? Do you believe that quantitatively more people would be pleased than not? If so, that's not exactly a good measure: people don't always vote for what's objectively better, but rather what interests them personally. That's why Jagex changed the polling system for example: from 50% yes required to pass to 75% yes, to reduce the likelihood of personal interest passing over greater good.


Jokku23 said:
Partyhats should be rereleased, because sharing the fun with others is showing great responsibility.

Sharing the fun by default is generosity, not responsibility. Sometimes you're due to share the fun, e.g. if you were paid to do it and you agreed to do it, but that's not the case here.
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29-Dec-2018 23:32:20

Blackwing

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Jokku23 said:
Treasure Hunter can be seen as gambling, and real money can be used to participate, but it's not gambling with real money. There is no way to win real money; you spend real money on keys, and receive something in-game for your account. All money will be gone for good. It's very good that kids learn that. Read also Kalea's reply.

Like said, semantics can be argued endlessly, but I'm not interested in that. What matters is that regular gambling has very similar, if not the exact same addictiveness as gambling in Treasure Hunter: the feeling of desire to get something that's up to random chance. Both types of gamblers can get so addicted to it that they don't care if they win something they want; they'll just want more and more. Needless to say that getting addicted like that and the financial loss that inevitably follows isn't at all healthy. Kids should learn that danger, but not by experiencing it themselves; yet, as long as loot box systems like Treasure Hunter go unregulated, they'll learn when it's too late.

(Btw, I've found that +1's tend to lead to endless circles, so I'd rather use my time more productively than that; I hope you understand going forward.)
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30-Dec-2018 23:54:04

Blackwing

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Jokku23 said:
Do you mean Old School polling system or what? Please specify this before I respond. Cheers!

I was talking about RS3, because I know they stopped doing 50% yes threshold polls in favor of 75% yes. Regarding OSRS, I haven't followed its progress as closely in the past, so I'm not sure, but I assume it's always been with 75% yes threshold.


Jokku23 said:
You cut the last sentence of the quote away. Prioritising braggers' ability to brag over the fun of the community is not responsible.

Sorry, I would've run out of space and have had to make another post just for that.

Nothing changes though: unless something specifically obligates you to "share the fun", you are not responsible to do so. You can if you want to and if have no obligation not to, but you don't need to.

In the case of Jagex and partyhats, there is nothing that obligates them to rerelease them in RS3. In OSRS they're obligated because they said they would, and since it was made clear from the start, people accept it there. It's a design decision: both ways work, but once you pick one, you gotta stick to it; otherwise, people won't accept it.
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30-Dec-2018 23:54:09

Blackwing

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Jokku23 said:
You said you don't want to argue semantics?

I said sharing the fun is showing great responsibility, not that they are responsible to do so. I googled "show responsibility", and the first property was "doing what you are supposed to do". This is what I meant. Prioritising braggers' ability to brag over the fun of the community is what they are supposed to do.

I don't want to argue semantics when it comes to the definitions of gambling, but that's not to say I don't want to argue about semantics ever. > )

Regarding the rest, you lost me. But that probably doesn't really matter anymore.


Jokku23 said:
It's a matter of opinion: Are partyhats meant to be cheerful holiday items or status symbols of braggers and merching tools of investors? It's biased to say one is "objectively better".

In that quote, I was talking about changing the meaning, not the meaning itself. Partyhats can work just as well as either, "cheerful holiday items" as they are in OSRS, or status symbols with historical value as they are in RS3. Once the meaning has already been decided, as it has been for both games, it'd be objectively harmful to change either into either direction. Not only do you piss off those that cared about the first meaning, but you also can't ensure that the second meaning is gonna remain; since it was already changed once, it could be changed again.

Even though it's not the subject, I'm still gonna mention that this is also why you shouldn't change games too much fundamentally either: in Runescape's case, the game has always been about grinding more than the actual result. If new people come in who'd rather have the opposite, and can't stand Runescape as it is, they'd be better off looking for another game that fits their need, or even ask for a new one, rather than changing Runescape. Since even newer players in the future could do the same thing for them.
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09-Jan-2019 18:58:26

Blackwing

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Nex is Life said:
Draco Burnz said:
Kalea Sprite said:
Support Partyhats on Treasure Hunter because everyone wins!!!

Yet they dont as theyd be less money than they are now thus flippers and merchers lose.
This is a pro

How's that a pro? Because you don't like some bad apples, you'd rather punish innocent partyhat owners by ruining their hats too? Not every partyhat owner is a flipper/mercher, there are those who have earned theirs for personal use through hard work as well. How would you feel if you worked hard for something and then some jealous person who's too lazy to do the same just comes and takes away from you what you legitimately earned?
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06-Feb-2019 22:33:04

Blackwing

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Dong U Dead said:
I suggested in another thread about bring in a diamond category where diamond can only be won a few times a year overall, in this category a phat could fit in. As the chances of winning a phat would be pretty much nil. As a diamond can only come up a few plus times a year for the whole of RS, not an individual person and since there are other prizes on this category it would be extremely rare.

Dong U Dead said:
Maybe in TH bring in a Diamond category where stuff such weapons, armour and other miscellaneous items that may cause devaluation in-game can only be won say a few times year overall <- doing this will stop items devaluing.

This would create a lose-lose dilemma; if the category, let alone the prize (partyhat) in it, is so insanely rare, it won't make the slightest of difference to satisfying those who want to get the partyhat, since almost all of them will remain without. All the while you devalue the historical value of already existing partyhats, since new copies would enter to the market and get confused with the old copies, resulting in all copies being treated as new.

Of course, you could mitigate that by keeping existing partyhat colors discontinued, but if you were to release new colors for example, why would you be dumb enough to want them to be placed on a predatory gambling simulator? Not only do you risk never getting one yourself, but it'd be far more satisfying to earn one via actual gameplay.
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12-Feb-2019 23:18:24

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