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Arguements Against 120 Summon

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Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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This isn't going to be short.

1) Lack of a Design Document/Concept
Some time ago, Mod Osborne said that in the future for polls, they would provide a little bit better description of where they want to go with a concept.
For 120 Summoning, they just kinda gave us "Zaros Summoning using fragments of other familiars".
Really? That's it?
No new activities? No thoughts on balancing?
Zaros Summoning might work as a complex training method other than just mass pouch production, or a way to add to the 80+ Summoning options.
But we didn't get any meat to the idea.
It's really just "we'll give you another 120 and try to think of a few things to add along the way".
In addition, they didn't really expand on the Zarosian Summoning in any way to make us wonder if it would be beneficial.

2) The current imbalance
Summoning could use a little EOC. Making some combat familiars on par with each other so that there is a melee/range/mage option at each tier.

In addition, we have imbalances on skilling familiars.
We don't have any woodcutting familiars above The Beaver.
We don't have a divination familiar below the Muspah or Light Creature.
Skilling familiar boosts are all over the place in terms of level bonuses for the Summoning Level required to summon the creature.

3) Time to re-evaluate if some familiars should have "combat"
Some familiars like the Ibis and the Macaw don't get drawn into combat.
Yet some like the Granite Crab and Lobster can fight?
Do we need to re-evaluate some of the summoning familiars and remove their ability to "fight" if players don't really even use them for that?

20-Jun-2018 04:13:21

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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4) Lack of Supporting Activities
Divination has gotten several D&D's of late. The Memorial To Guthix and the Archive to provide new training methods.
Fishing got the Fishing Platform.
Currently, Summoning really only has Familiarization.

5) What do we really get with 120?
Right now, it would just add a few more combat levels to the players' total levels and add a few new familiars.
Do we really need to go to 120 for just a +4 or +6 to a Beast of Burden's Inventory?
Would we get skilling familiars with +12 invisible boosts?
Would the damage increases in combat familiars be worthwhile?
How much accuracy or damage boosts would the player get (similar to Nihil familiar effects) before we start to effect PVP more than we already have?

20-Jun-2018 04:13:27 - Last edited on 20-Jun-2018 04:18:44 by Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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How Would Zarosian Summoning Work?

Would we use an interface similar to Invention when making Gizmo Shells?
2 parts pack yak, 2 parts iron titan, 1 part Lava Titan
Roll 5 times
Get like
1 = Familiar that has +10 inv, some combat, and +5 mining boost
2 = +8 inv, no combat +10 firemaking
3 = no inventory but can send items to bank, high combat focus, +1 to mining and firemaking

Would we now have dozens of new familiar designs?
Sort of like a Frankenstein's monster of mish-mashed familiar models.
Or would we have a generic summoning avatar that ALL of the familiars would be based on, but would have all of the abilities we created into it?
Sort of like how your gear in invention works. I can create a gizmo shell. Mix and match to get a random assortment of perks. Then add that to my tool/weapon/armor and can now have a wide variety of Noxious Scythes with the same base stats, but 1 is ideal for Demonic Slayer Tasks while another is ideal for bossing.

Would all players have access to it from the start? Or would it be locked behind quests?
Players don't really get in touch with Zaros until Fate of the Gods.
You don't really run into Zarosians until Desert Treasure.
If it requires Fate of the Gods, you just locked A LOT of players out of a major training method to get to 120. Especially if it becomes the only way to train after 99.

20-Jun-2018 04:16:04 - Last edited on 20-Jun-2018 04:36:03 by Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

Posts: 27,912Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Personally, before we go to 120 Summoning, I'd rather have us clean up the existing Summoning content.
Make it tidy.
Remove unused familiars, maybe save the models for later when a better idea comes along.
Balance out some of the familiars so that players can have a combat option at the same level (ie: Fire, Ice, and Moss Titans) and skilling familiars become a little more predictable for their boosts at a level/tier.

In addition, maybe we could take a page or 2 from Invention:

- creating a communion with the Summoning Familiars before we can summon them.
Sort of like the Discovery aspect of Invention where players take a blueprint to learn/figure how to make a component, device, or machine.
Here, players would do something to commune or perform an offering ritual to gain the favor of the familiar the first time.

The puzzle (or something) would be fairly standard for all familiars.

In addition, it would award XP the same way we get Invention XP. Helping to take the edge off of the cost of training a little. In addition, it would give some in game logic as to WHY the player is able to call the familiars.


Can we become less reliant on spam creating pouches?
Sort of like the Construction tedium of build-destroy-repeat.
In addition, making pouches is our only way of getting xp. Sure there's a token amount of XP from summoning a familiar and using movement scrolls ... but it's not really "training" in a way that feels like training. And yeah, you can use your Charming Imp to gobble up XP ... but really?

There's no variety to our methods. There's no incentive to do anything else or to look forward to.

20-Jun-2018 04:22:09 - Last edited on 20-Jun-2018 04:39:11 by Deltaslug

Uncle Pob

Uncle Pob

Posts: 2,962Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Deltaslug said:
4) Lack of Supporting Activities
Divination has gotten several D&D's of late. The Memorial To Guthix and the Archive to provide new training methods.
Fishing got the Fishing Platform.
Currently, Summoning really only has Familiarization.


This is a huge problem, and the mentality of a lot of players doesn't help.

Summoning is a skill who's only repeatable training method relies on spending GP for Spirit Shards which are needed to create pouches. In other words it's seen as a gold sink, and anything which undermines the necessity to spend GP would therefore "break" the skill.

And yes, there are a multitude of "free" methods to train Summoning already in the game, all of which are time-locked or restricted in some other way to limit their effectiveness - ie. the Citadel Summoning plot only allows you to skill up to 10% of your weekly cap on it.

What's needed is a new training method that's not a D&D.

However, when expense is the main driving force behind the Summoning skill, players will always choose the least expensive option. This means, if a new Summoning method was made which was entirely free to do, or used resources which could be manually gathered, that would become the "go-to" method for the majority of players who'd never make scrolls ever again. But any new method can't be *more* expensive either, otherwise people would ignore it and stick with using the existing methods.

That kind of locks Summoning into a situation where it can't ever have variety added into it, and thus will nearly always be among the most "boring" skills in the game even if we ignore cost.

So since we can't add variety to the skilling methods without having Summoning "become" the new skilling method, there doesn't seem much point in extending the cap to 120 because that would just force people to need to continue doing the same boring expensive method for much longer, which will annoy and fatigue many players.

20-Jun-2018 08:15:29

BLOODDlAMOND
Apr Member 2018

BLOODDlAMOND

Posts: 1,825Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I see a lot of good ideas here -- things that definitely need looking into.

BUT

I think it's premature to expect this kind of detail in a simple poll question. All it seemed to be to me was a way for Jagex to gauge player interest in a number of different things with the poll results to give guidance on those that should perhaps be prioritised.

I would hope that 120 summoning would come with some kind of overhaul and address some of the issues you raised. Possibly there would even be a document along the lines of the Mining/Smithing rework where players could give feedback on proposed changes and make suggestions.
"Howard, I think you of all people should avoid espousing the principle that if something is not our favourite we should just get rid of it." ~ Sheldon Cooper

20-Jun-2018 13:06:43

Qwis7
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2010

Qwis7

Posts: 992Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Also a 99 rework would not be a bad thing, but we all have to be aware that summoning is a support skill.
Its pretty stupid to rework a supporters skill first and secondly all the other skills.
This way you create double work or a death skill (summoning).


So once again I say leave summoning for now and look at it after you did the mining, smiting, woodcutting, fletch, craft etc etc.

This way you prevent a hell lot of work and make summoning a honorable skill after that can truly be called a support skill.

20-Jun-2018 14:34:49

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