Another Topic: Standardization

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In light of Lozz bby's topic about Land Claims and Role-Player's topic on owning land, a secondary subject has recently emerged that I'd like to continue the dialogue on, albeit separately so that we can warrant a focused discussion on it.

From a post of mine on Lozz's thread:

Original message details are unavailable.
If ever I were to suggest a new "approach" for the community, it would be going back and reevaluating the lore and rules of W42.

By this I mean: standardize how powerful metals/things are, standardize the effects of this resource or the rarity of that, standardize the general status of lore as it interacts with W42.

Then, same thing with the rules: Reevaluate them, standardize them and have a general "it's okay if you do this when someone breaks the rules" protocol.

Now, to this community something like that sounds extreme and unnecessary. It may be downright infeasible to expect this community to be capable of adapting to that. But I'll say it: Out of the RP communities I've visited or been part of in the past, those who are strict with their rules and how rules are enforced as well as enforcing a coherent "game world" generally have the least OOC conflicts and the least cloak/dagger behavior. People focus on the IC, the RP, and the creativity of what you can do within the given environment.

It doesn't limit creativity, at least in my experiences, either. It just alters how you interact with and employ creativity.

This began to generate some discussion about standardization and RP, and I'd like to continue it! What are your thoughts, folks?
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27-Apr-2016 19:22:41



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Going to quote my reply from Lozz's thread onto here.

Siberys said:
I... actually had an idea somewhat similar to this a couple months ago. 42 has a long and illustrious history of disagreements that turn nasty fast - particularly in the arena of RP combat. After a particularly rapid succession of that, I'd struck upon the idea of creating a thread that served as a weekly forum for mature discussion regarding non-specific issues of contention.

For instance, when weapons of different metals clash. Would the stronger one sunder the weaker? Alternatively, would they have the typical reaction of real world equipment? That's the sort of thing that would be discussed over the course of the week to determine what should be considered the best solution to that disagreement.

I'm not sure how well such a thread would work out, and it could have its fair share of flaws - tyranny by the majority could be a commonly cited one. Some things would likely also be impossible, and shouldn't be, fully standardized, like magic.

I, personally, wouldn't mind standardization, but I am one amongst many. :P
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27-Apr-2016 19:48:42

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I feel like the "strength" of things needs to be reevaluated. As it stands, crystal weaponry seems to be relatively standard in the Iorweth and Cadarn elven clans.

I've heard that rune "cuts through steel like butter"

If we've go by these weapon tiers,
What stops a single Iorweth from slicing his way through a wall of stone?
What gave Tyras' men the ability to last so long against the Iorweth?

As for rarity:
Yes, runite is expensive, but it being reserved only for people with wallets the size of moon seems extreme to me, but I can't say I have evidence to support this claim besides headcanons.

Do you plan to standardize non-melee materials? Should steel, spider silk and studded leather (Which is leather with steel studs, apparently) be the same strength? Green dragonhide, adamant metal and splitbark? Rune, blue dragonhide, and mystic? Grifolic, Black dragonhide, and dragon metal? Armours made from easily accessible beasts in the Fremennik province being more powerful than the super rare and almighty runite? Once, someone's demon gave one of my characters an abyssal whip (It wasn't useful, considering she icly is a mage, so no one really has a right to be upset over this)

I think these things need to be addressed. From the standpoint of someone who likes more diverse stories, I'd like to see some adventurer characters with rune. I do, however, see that this might be abused.
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27-Apr-2016 19:54:15 - Last edited on 27-Apr-2016 19:58:07 by Salwamander

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I'd like to talk about standardizing magic, ranged and melee combat. Talk about how amours affect us in combat and how they can defend us from attacks, what impact spells have on people, how long it should take to charge certain tiered spells and what we should do with loading and firing ranged weapons.

Claire also has a good guide on Gielinorian metals: 237-238-264-65079216.

27-Apr-2016 19:57:08

Lady Ria
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Lady Ria

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One issue that came up in the Countdown Roleplays was a diverse background of people with different circles and different ideas on how magic, in particular worked.

We had Wizard's Tower folk who were against charging, we had PoK people who hadn't looked into magic much, and "hardcore" combatants who felt magic RPers as a whole made things overpowered.

Reaching a happy medium for cohesive stuff got difficult, so I got a melee expert, a lore expert, a prayer user and a Tower roleplayer to sit down and discuss what works best for a cohesive standard.

It worked for us, I feel, but this is more as a middle ground to varying styles and a compromise that stopped rp fights from bleeding into OOC with people who have already gotten friendly and know eachother. It isn't a world-setting standard, though I feel it's a decent one and I'll go by it in the future.

For reference, here's the tiers:

- Strike spells: nonlethal and easily shrugged off. Used for subversion rather than lethality. Does not need a charge.

- Bolt spells: hit harder and possess potential to be lethal when used strategically. Needs a single turn charge.

- Blast spells: roughly the same size and speed of bolt spells but pack greater force. A general tier to scale attacks by. Wind Blast could knock a fully armored knight off their feet. Needs a single turn charge.

- Wave spells: large spells carry more extreme amounts of force. Take significantly longer (Roughly three turns) to charge.
Three blasts can be combined to a wave.

- Surge spells: are smaller, but significantly faster moving and carry greater force behind them. Should be limited to groups charging for a single spell. Carry force comparable to siege weaponry.

27-Apr-2016 20:08:31

Lord Pyro I
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Lord Pyro I

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In the past I proposed a meeting (things got busy but I hadn't given up) of the POK leaders to discuss how to handle wars without it turning into a disaster. I approve just as much of this but I would like to make some points now:

- If this happens it will require the input or support of every view point with no one excluded.
- This should be an opt-in thing no one should be forced to follow rules they didn't personally agree to (that being said no one should be able to dip in and out whenever they feel like either)
- The rules agreed upon should be very clear and very public, being vague is the easiest way to see these rules abused.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"

27-Apr-2016 20:23:34

Naval Pupper
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Naval Pupper

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Hi, I'm one of those Wiz Tower people against charging.
So, in terms of standardizing magic, I think it's effectively impossible to do. We have a few people that think magic is extraordinarily OP even when charging is brought into effect to balance it, and we have a few people (including me) who view this as a crippling handicap on magic.
Charging aside, several people also view magic as being limited to what is shown in game -- in effect, spells like lightning don't exist outside of magic reserved for the pious (Korasi's special, Saradomin Strike, etc), mind magic doesn't exist outside of the confuse spell and telekinetic grab, etc. And then there are people like me, who view the spellbooks as just that -- spellbooks. Books of common, useful spells to be used by mages that don't devote themselves to one field of magic such as astromancy or pyromancy. And thus, electricity and mind magic are possibilities, as are other forms of magic. And then, even for people who agree with the idea of magic not being limited to what is shown in game, they still hold the viewpoint that something like electricity should not be possible due to the potential power of it from an OOC standpoint.
There's disagreement on the rarity and value of blood, death, chaos and soul runes (does the Runecrafting Guild restrict the creation and sale of these runes when they confiscate them from people using the RuneSpan?)
There's disagreement on whether humans of this era should really even be able to learn Ancient Magic, there's disagreement on whether we can properly consider the Moonclan as human anymore, there's disagreement on how runes work, there's disagreement on what shadow magic even does, there's disagreement on almost EVERY part of magic.
Yes, standardization would be extremely helpful. However, the task is so large, and so many people would refuse to change their stance on it, that it's easier to write it off as impossible and just RP with like-minded individuals.
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27-Apr-2016 21:01:48

Naval Pupper
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Naval Pupper

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As for weapon tiers -- most things that are above dragon equipment in-game, I view as just being game mechanic. Tetsu armor is just leather and iron, isn't it? No special crafting technique is going to make that sturdier and better than dragon. Abyssal whips are just the spines of abyssal demons. Demons are powerful creatures, yes, but they're still made of flesh. That whip isn't going to slice through rune. Dragon leather is tough, but quality steel can still slice through it with enough force behind it, unless we're talking black/royal dragon leather, which would probably need mithril if we're being realistic.
There are a few exceptions -- Barrows armor being one. Since the gear is enhanced by Sliske and possibly (?) strengthened with the power of the Shadow Realm, it does stand above dragon equipment in terms of strength, though dragon weaponry can still cut through it.
Just my take on it all.
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27-Apr-2016 21:07:03

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As far as equipment goes, I believe we should deviate from Jagex's canon. Not disregard it, because what we could do within the supposed deviation would surely blur together with Jagex's canon in some parts.

We find ourselves in a world that has had fifteen years of updates, and of course plenty of those have been for equipment and combat. However, according to lore, the setting has officially only advanced one year (some lore Mods say realistically it wouldn't have happened but to officially peg dates on everything wouldn't work). So we have this muddy setting where tons of new resources have been discovered that are relatively easy to obtain and refine, when steel is still pretty damn expensive (and reaffirmed by Rovin in RoB stating that outfitting Misthalin's army in higher than steel would be prohibitively expensive). In one canonical year, we went from a medieval low magic setting to high fantasy pie in the got dang stratosphere setting. Apparently, we're also getting to science fiction now with Invention. It's...a head ache if you look at it from the outside.

And this system, despite it being quite difficult as a whole to reconcile with its own self, is what the community has adhered to for years. If not always. Back when the consensus to follow that was reached, the state of the setting made it much more intuitive. Rune was super rare, because it actually was pretty damned expensive in game. But not regarding time, this mentality didn't evolve with the game.

And now we have a system where characters still need to be super duper rich and important to have rune equipment, when we have gods handing out armor sets as durable as dragon that also defies the combat triangle as a reward for being a good soldier.

I think that all's the problem with the standard of equipment. The passage of time doesn't make sense and the community consensus hasn't moved past the last decade.

What could be a solution? I'll talk about that in my next post.
The purpose of life is finding the largest burden that you can bear and then indeed bearing it.

27-Apr-2016 21:14:50

Bruce Willis
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Bruce Willis

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I suggested a standardization of magic but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO the bleeding hearts of the community said they didn't want people interfering with their creative liberties (Even though you could always just choose not to follow them, which they already do), so I got no support. Nobody here knows what they want and if you suggest the most beneficial thing for the community as a whole, they'll complain about it until they learn to adapt to it. ¸¤·.¸.·¤´˜¨Live and let Die¨˜´¤·.¸.·¤¸

"Something, something, inspirational quote." -Me, just now.

27-Apr-2016 21:18:40

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