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Aquamancer

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After some extensive digging, I managed to gather quite a lot of lore about the Seers and Seers' Village.

We know that the Seers' Village was originally settled by the Seers, a number of people with the ability to see the future, though over time their numbers have dwindled, and while there are still a few of them around, they have become bit of a minority. What has caused this to happen is unknown. We also know that Seers are Guthixians. However, there is a church dedicated to Saradomin in the village. This suggests that either there are some Seers who do follow Saradomin, or the Seers follow Guthix but had a church built in their village in order to not get in trouble with the Church of Saradomin. We also know that Seers' Village is lead by Seers' Council, whose current head is Phantuwti Fanstuwi Farsight. We also know from Salt in the Wound that Temple Knights employ seers in their service.

It's also likely that seers have some sort of connection with the Fremennik: after all, Peer the Seer is one of the members of the Fremennik Council in Rellekka, Talsar is a seer, the Fremennik apparently emply a lot of seers, "farseer" is a term mentioned in the Epic of Bukalla as well as in its namesake shield, V was a Fremennik seer before his ascension to godhood, the Fremennik ring that fills their wearer with magical power is called Seers' ring, and the seercull bow was made to fight the Moon Clan a long time ago, though the name suggests that it might've seen use against seers as well. Since the Fremennik who died in the Waterbirth Dungeon took their best and most valuable gear to battle, it implies that among those who died in the Waterbirth Dungeon were seers who likely used their magic and the ability to see the future against the Dagannoth.

21-Mar-2017 20:44:48 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 20:48:10 by Aquamancer

Aquamancer

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In addition, the other settlements of the northern Kandarin are also derived from Old Norse:
* "-by" in Catherby is derived from the Old Norse word for "settlement" or "village".
* "-ster" in Hemenster is derived from the Old Norse word for "farm", which implies that when Hemenster was founded, its main source of income was farming, and not fishing. This is supported by the fact that the area around Hemenster is even nowadays filled with farms.
* "Thorpe" in Burthorpe is derived from the Old Norse, meaning "secondary settlement"; alternatively, it's derived from Old English word "thorp", which means hamlet or a small village. "Bur-", on the other hand, is likely derived from Old English, either meaning "fortified enclosure" or "private chamber/room": it is also worth mentioning that "bur" also mean "neighbour/inhabitant, dwelling" in Old Saxon and "peasant, quarters" in Old High German, mostly due to the fact all of these words derive from the same Proto-Germanic root word "būraz". This might tell us in what kind of circumstances Burthorpe was founded. Burthorpe most likely started out as a small, unimportant peasent settlement fortified most likely due to the attack of the mountain trolls, rocnars and other monsters from the Death Plateau.

Given that the Fremennik are inspired by the Vikings, who spoke the Old Norse as their native language, and the fact that several settlements and placenames south of the Fremennik Province have Old Norse elements, suggests that the region where Seers' Village is now used to be under the influence of the Fremennik tribes.

21-Mar-2017 20:45:05

Aquamancer

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Seers' Village also has the citadel of Camelot, currently lead by King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. The citadel used to be owned by the Sinclair family, but was gifted to the knights from another dimension who needed a castle by Lord Sinclair, a good friend of King Ulthas and a wealthy noble who did many good works for the people of the kingdom. How Sinclair family got hold of the castle in the first place is unknown. It is also unknown why a castle was built in northern Kandarin in the first place: I would assume it would have something to do with protecting the area from the Fremennik tribes, trolls, goblins, ogres and other threats the region might've had in the past.

We also know that Seers' Village High Court was originally the Party Room, but moved to Falador after King Arthur filed for the eviction of Party Pete and the other employees of Party Room, claiming that his knights kept leaving Camelot to join the Dancing Knights: Sir Lancelot was even thinking of joining them, and according to Party Pete, can break-dance really well. Even after Party Pete moved to Falador, King Arthur sent him a subpoena, claiming that he had 'stolen' his dancing knights, breaking their employment contract with him. This lore is referred to ingame as well, with balloons popping from the roof after a case succeeds.

21-Mar-2017 20:45:21

Aquamancer

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We also know that beneath the Village is a mine containing elemental ore, a mineral which has a unique property of absorbing, transforming or focusing elemental energy, changing the properties of Magic. After the ore was discovered early in the Fifth Age, a workshop was erected close by for artisans and inventors to be able to come and create devices made from the unique ore. However, after some time of successful industry the true power of this ore became apparent as greater and more powerful weapons were created, and realizing the threat this posed, especially on their profession, the magi of the time closed down and tried to destroy all knowledge of manufacturing processes. How this tied with the story of Vitruvius the metallurgist, his apprentice and a freelance mage Vitrivius had collaborated with is unknown. It is also unknown if the elementals in the dungeon existed before the discovery of the dungeon, or if they were introduced there by the mages and the metallurgists.

Oh, and one proposal: since Camelot will be reworked with the graphical rework as well, could there be a painting of King Ulthas and Lord Sinclair in Camelot? It would showcase that that the Knights of the Round Table respect the former king and lord for their actions, and allow us to see what they looked like, given that we will likely never actually get to meet them alive.

21-Mar-2017 20:47:31

Aquamancer

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Cthris said:
Snip

That sound way too edgy for my taste, not to mention that your suggestion goes completely going against the pre-established theme of Seers' Village. I just cannot see nihilist, masochist seers in an agral village where the King Arthur is present, and the Party Room used to be. Even your description of the possible rework of Seers' Village just doesn't fit in with what has already established already, and sounds more like something from DarkScape or the Dimension of Disaster rather than from this world.

I have to admit though, while the concept of a nihilist, possibly masochistic seer who values pain is an interesting concept for a character, I cannot see them being the norm at all: in fact, a seer like that would probably be shunned. Also, we've learned from Ariane's story that the seers can see the future, AND change it, as she was able to learn the demon's secret in magic without actually giving him a drop of her blood, so seers shouldn't be nihilists at all: if anything, they should be optimists: after all, they of all people should know that future can be changed.

So yes, I'd prefer to keep the Seers as a kind and jovial bunch filled with a bunch of white robe hippies, rather than making them a community of edgelords.

AttilaSquare said:
Snip


As I have said before, the concept of "Catherby" and "Sotherby" as family names is utterly ridiculous: Catherby is clearly a placename, not a surname applied to refer to a village. "Sother" does not even mean anything: to be fair though, neither does "Cather", but since Sotherby is clearly ripped off from Catherby, there is no reason to repeat the same mistake twice in a row.

In addition, the existing lore tells that not only are druids not have been there since time immemorial, they have started to become something of a dying breed, so there's no reason to scrap that lore either. Pre-established lore should come before headcanon.

21-Mar-2017 21:07:44 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 21:10:42 by Aquamancer

Aquamancer

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Elf of Seren said:
Finally, is it possible that anyone remembers Vitruvius? I'm sure he has another apprentice somewhere...


No. The Elemental Workshop was sealed off and all records of the location were destroyed, so Vitruvius' contributions to the Elemental Workshop have been mostly forgotten.

Crow Crimson said:
Snip

The Seers' powers are likely some form of natural power, rather than a gift from the gods, since V was a seer, and he lived during the Second Age. I assume that the humans of Fremennik homeworld had the unique ability to occasionally see to the future. While lore about the Guthixian army would be really neat, it unfortunately does not fit here.

Ariane's parents and family in general would be a nice touch to the village, though.

23-Mar-2017 19:38:17

Aquamancer

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Mod Kelpie said:
Thoughts?


* I like the idea. Seers' ancestors should be Fremennik, yes, though I assume that they have assimilated into the culture of Kandarin, so they have lost a lot of the old Fremennik customs; and the loss of their precognition might be genetic of origin. It might even be an interesting idea that seers only occur among Fremennik and people descended from them.

* That makes sense: we know that the Seers' Village was built by seers, so the mistrust on the seers caused by the discovery of Runes could've been the reason why the Seers left the Fremennik tribes and settled in northern Kandarin, relatively close to their old homelands. It does not explain why the Fremennik still have seers like Peer and Skaldrun, though. I suppose Amascut's theory that Just going with the idea of a vision that caused the group to uproot and move would be fine in my eyes. It's simpler and is a bit more consistent with existing Fremennik characters.

* Nice idea, though I would also assume that as the Fremennik seers' descendants came into contact with the other Kandarian peoples, they began to lose their traditions due to cultural assimilation. It could be a mix of both. Who knows, maybe Seers' abilities are genetically latent, so as more and more seers began to intermarry with other peoples of Kandarin, more and more children in the village lost their ability to see to the future, and became completely out of touch with their Fremennik heritage, and consider themselves Kandarian instead.

* Makes sense, though pressure from the Church of Saradomin could've also been a factor, and the Seers might've been more willing to operate with Saradominists than other Guthixian groups.

23-Mar-2017 19:38:31

Aquamancer

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* That could work... though wasn't it said that King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table came from their realm to Gielinor to pass time, until they are needed in their home realm once more? That said, though, the Knights have apparently been doing adventuring

* That is actually a really neat idea! Go with that, though don't make it too run down: not everyone in Seers' Village is a seer, and seers are supposed to be the minority, so most of the village's people live in the current day.

Cthris said:
Also needs a cult of edgelord seers :P


How about a compromise: there once was a edgelord seer cult, that got destroyed/disbanded by adventurers of the previous generation, like Xenia, or Wise Old Man? It would be nice to see how their actions have affected the lives of other people, and what kind of adventures they had.

ironpariah said:
Snip


Nah, the Seers should've been Fremenniks. There is no mention of druids ever having seers or seer-like powers, whereas the seers' presence in the Fremennik culture is overwhelming Besides, during the early Fifth Age, trolls used to be living in Asgarnia, so they were pushed to the mountains only relatively recently.

As for the Seers' Council, it's unclear if it's a council of seers, or the council for Seers' Village. If it's the former, there shouldn't be any non-seers present. If it's the latter, I'd imagine there would be both seers and non-seers.

23-Mar-2017 19:38:58

Aquamancer

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AttilaSquare said:
SNIP

First off: there's no mention of sorcery as spirit-based magic to have ever been a thing. It does not even make sense: where would've these spirits even come from? The existing lore supports the idea that the races of the First Age only used runic magic: after all, if there would've been other sources of magic for humans, there wouldn't have been conflicts caused by the absence of runes. This also basically removes the foundations for the concept of mysticism and mystic schools, which would've been the source of mystic robes. We also do not need more mystic robe variants, so creating more mystic schools just so we can have more t50 robe variants only a handful of people wear is unnecessary.

Secondly: seers are likely not a school of mystics, they're likely originally a group of Fremenniks with the ability to see to the future, and used magic in combat. They were likely seperate from the Moon Clan's predecessors, though.

Thirdly: a self-insert namedrop is not cool (it's only fine if other people do it for you, or if it's in non-serious context), nor does "Attila" make sense as a Fremennik name. Attila is a Central Asian name of the Antique, the Fremennik were magical Vikings from the Middle Ages: linguistically, the name does not make sense; nor does it make sense that a Fremennik was responsible for developing the planar theory: it makes sense for wizards to do so, but not for the Fremennik.

23-Mar-2017 19:41:35

Aquamancer

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Fourthly: it does not make sense that a great family rises to take power over a small village with little to no economical, military or religious significance. Now, if their power spanned across the entire region, that'd be different, but Sinclairs likely fulfilled that role; and the names "Cather" and "Sother" were clearly taken from existing place-names just to come up with names for two new families. In addition, as there were no settlements in the region prior to the Seers' arrival in the region of Seers' Village, so why would "Sothers" have any reason to rule over it?

Fifthly: There we no druids in Kandarin during the Fifth Age: they existed only in the eastern side of White Wolf Mountain. Next: the Elemental Workshop was discovered after Seers' Village was founded, likely some time after Seers' Village was founded, so Virtuvius wouldn't have been present in the region, and most likely operated somewhere else, like in Ardougne. Seers' Village has also been called like that since its founding, so "Sotherby" is strictly speaking a lorefail.

Sixthly: Does Thrormac REALLY need this much lore? The descendant of a family who ruled over a region and the practitioner of magical knowledge from millennia ago? That sounds a bit over the top, if you ask me. Sure, Thormac could use lore, but I do not like what you have offered so far.

23-Mar-2017 19:42:03

Aquamancer

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Helring said:
I understand the original Seers Village seers being Fremmenik in origin, but possibly include some others? If they accept other cultures, I imagine that others that might possibly have access to that magic might have joined them, perhaps a couple seers of alternate races.


The ability to be a seer is likely a hereditary trait, not a learned one: therefore, only the descendants of the Fremennik seers can ever become seers.

Eren Lapucet said:
Oh, nearly forgot. The battered book mentions "magi" who closed down the Elemental Workshop since they thought the ore was too powerful. So either "magi" is a generic word for wizards/seers, another name for the Seers Council, or an organization that no longer exists.

Probably refers to mages in general who worked there, as well as Wizards' Tower and Wizards' Guild. The Elemental Workshop quests refer to Vitruvius working with a free-lance mage, for example.

AttilaSquare said:
Snip

Do note that Seers' Village was settles easily over a century ago. There's no way that the graphical design of the place would look like it was recently settled.

23-Mar-2017 19:42:37

Aquamancer

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Kittyphantom said:
Eren Lapucet said:
Actually Godwine, Seers Village is marked Guthixian in the god map.


Oh. I stand corrected, then. Shame on me for doubting Aquamancer.


Well, a lot of the lore I got was very obscure, so it makes sense for people to be worried about lorefails, and rightfully so: everyone can make mistakes, and when we are participating in the creation of lore for a region that previously had very little of it, it makes sense to be worried of lorefails: that's what most of my participation on this thread has been mostly about.

That said, though, I did not find a single reference to the Seers being Saradominist, and even if there would be no mention about Seers' association with the gods, it makes more sense for the Seers to be Guthixians than for them to be Saradominists.

Crow Crimson said:
Does anyone think McGrubor's Woods should get some lore?

Sure, why not? All we really know that it's a large swathe of private land filled with trees, owned by a wealthy family known as the McGrubors, who hire foresters look after the area's trees and wildlife and guard dogs to protect it from any intruders, but knowledge about the back entrance to the forest is known by Edmond (and possibly by Grandpa Jack), suggesting that information about the woods is rather common knowledge; the forest has a fairy ring; Tam McGrubor, the hander of wicked hoods, does not own the woods, but used to live there (possibly illegally); that Sparky the Squirrel used to live there; and that it's been around for quite a long time, as Grandpa Jack refers to how he used to get red vine worms from the woods, implying it used to be private land even when he was at his prime 20 years ago, and quite likely even earlier than that. We know nothing about the McGrubor family or why they own the forest, for example, so learning more about the forest's lore would be nice.

24-Mar-2017 23:29:18 - Last edited on 24-Mar-2017 23:41:15 by Aquamancer

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Deltaslug said:
I know this isn't lore, but can we have an update to the Elemental Workshop's "Battered Key" mechanic?

Take a page from Mod Stu on the Shield of Arrav quest:
Make it so the player only needs to use the Battered Key once to open it.
Any time after that, the player just opens the door to access the workshop.

This wold be a minor QoL improvement, plus it would permanently remove 1 more key from the Steel Key Ring.


You do realize this is already the case?

24-Apr-2017 16:21:11

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