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RE: State of Game UpdatesThread is locked

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Blackwing
Nov Member 2012

Blackwing

Posts: 38,640Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Today's game update thread was locked before I had the time to respond to some people regarding this subject, so I thought to address them while I still remember. :P

Uncle Pob said:
How many other developers out there can you think of that are capable of, and actually succeed in putting out what you define as an actual game update almost weekly?

Can't think of many, or any?

There's a reason for that which Jagex also isn't immune to.

Right, it seems you don't understand my reasoning for almost weekly updates, so let's go back to the start: when people have certain expectations for game developers in regards to their work output, it's based on their proven abilities as well as their monetization model. The more money the company asks for their game, the higher the expectations naturally are. In your quote here, you seem to be completely ignoring that, and are only focusing on the developers' abilities.

This applies to Jagex in the way that they have been able to deliver almost weekly updates before with no MTX, only membership revenue. When they added MTX and really started to push them more and more, even though they told us that the quality and quantity of the game updates would improve, the opposite happened on both. We're now expected to pay more money (even though their financial statements prove that MTX isn't needed at all to keep the game profitable), while we're getting less in return. Pretty much the only thing that has improved are the graphics, but graphics don't matter if the gameplay is neglected like it has been.
The Runescape Witcher
|| "Why does he have two swords? Does he lose them often?"

14-Jan-2019 12:33:23

Blackwing
Nov Member 2012

Blackwing

Posts: 38,640Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Final Tease said:
So, are you hoping they release a quest, or a new boss today? In lieu of the size of the update from last week, it's difficult to determine from your original post what you mean exactly by consistency. They've been consistently releasing quests every few months, have been consistently changing the MTX, and have been working on various QOL updates such as POFs and Elite Dungeons. What are your expectations for consistency that they can deliver within the next 12 minutes? Is their current pacing of updates insufficient for you?

By consistency I mean delivering actual game updates such that when there is a patch week like there was this week, the patch week is an exception, rather than yet another one. For starters, it'd be great if Jagex could start delivering 3 actual game updates per month again, although they're able to do months with 4 in them too as proven in the past.

What the new content is can be anything from a new quest, to a new slayer monster, to a skill rework, the size varies all the time. Not expecting full reworks like M&S every week, but after an update like that, a small new content addition is still to be expected, at least unless the patch week would be an exception otherwise.

(And seriously, "consistently releasing quests every few months"? Their quest output has steadily decreased over the years, both in quality and quantity. It's far from being consistent currently.)
The Runescape Witcher
|| "Why does he have two swords? Does he lose them often?"

14-Jan-2019 12:33:32

Blackwing
Nov Member 2012

Blackwing

Posts: 38,640Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Subzero said:
You literally have zero idea of how a development studio runs


In the past more updates were received because they were generally of lower quality. Compare the quality of the game's art assets from then vs now and this quickly becomes obvious.


I could knock out some old-style RuneScape 3D art a lot faster than I could make RS3 models, because the RS3 process is a lot longer. OSRS models have no textures, RS3 models have several textures. OSRS models are less geometrically detailed, RS3 models are more geometrically detailed.


And this doesn't even account for the code side, which as an artist I have little knowledge on but still enough knowledge to know that developing for a larger game takes longer because there is more to test, and a more complicated code base.


Literally no pleasing some people - Jagex have literally just shown that they can do a huge rework successfully and you're still whinging at them? Cancel your membership and give us all a rest if you don't like it.

Graphics have improved for sure, but like they always say, graphics alone don't make for a great game. If the gameplay isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how pretty the game looks. It's actually pretty funny that you bring up OSRS, because it proves this: the secondary product of the company is more popular than the intended "flagship" product, despite having technically inferior graphics. (I'd encourage you to read the other posts in this thread as well btw.)

About that last paragraph; when the rework released last week, I actually complimented them, since it was a successful game update after all, patches and new content. If you want people to give compliments, you have to accept complaints too, and since this week was only half successful (patches but no new content), this week there was a complaint instead.
The Runescape Witcher
|| "Why does he have two swords? Does he lose them often?"

14-Jan-2019 12:33:41

Daibhi
Sep Member 2017

Daibhi

Posts: 894Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blackwing said:

(And seriously, "consistently releasing quests every few months"? Their quest output has steadily decreased over the years, both in quality and quantity. It's far from being consistent currently.)


I remember when they used to put 10+ quests a year so I know what you're talking about, it's such a pity too because the quests in the game are genuinely enjoyable (which I've started noticing once I decided to stop spamming through the dialogue, which I used to do when I was younger) - they aren't the typical: go here, kill this, collect this, come back - repeat quests I've seen in almost every other MMO I've tried over the years.

14-Jan-2019 12:37:22

Fox Totem
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2016

Fox Totem

Posts: 1,688Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
You make some good points.

Remember bitd when a lot of us (players) said "cosmetics (mtx) won't ruin the game"
Now those are the only "updates" we get most of the time.

ETA: Why aren't recent updates posted here lately? I was looking for a place to
say thank you for M&S rework last week.
The point of the journey is not to arrive.

14-Jan-2019 12:43:30 - Last edited on 14-Jan-2019 12:50:43 by Fox Totem

Subzero
Jul Member 2009

Subzero

Posts: 23,266Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
He makes no good points, and the ones he tries to make demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of how development studios work, and how content has evolved over time.


Do you want Quality or Quantity? You're looking at this with rose tinted goggles and I'm going to prove this to you: Close your eyes and think about the worst Quests in the game - the ones that were tedious and boring.

Most players will think about old Quests; the ones which most people now hate doing. Most players I know and have come across in the game generally see Quests as a chore, but find the newer ones acceptable because they are considerably better produced when compared to the old ones.

I've also got an IRL friend who is a newer player working through all the quests atm, and generally speaking he finds all the old ones "trash" (his words) and the new ones OK or good.


Blackwing said:
If the gameplay isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how pretty the game looks.


The updates we do get are generally very good, so I don't see what point you're trying to make here.

The Mining and Smithing rework was generally loved by the player base. Player owned farms was loved by the player base, and Elite dungeons whilst have a few hiccups are also generally liked.


Blackwing said:
It's actually pretty funny that you bring up OSRS, because it proves this


OSRS doesn't prove shit. OSRS appeals to two markets: RuneScape players, and Retro gaming enthusiasts. It's also way easier to play on mobile because it's a more simple game with fewer controls and less customisable UI.

RuneScape 3 appeals to two markets: RuneScape players and modern MMORPG players.

The markets are different, and despite being called the same thing the games are drastically different.

One thing the entire playerbase generally agrees upon is that OSRS is superior for PKing, but RS3 offers better endgame and PvM content.
Subzero

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14-Jan-2019 12:52:48 - Last edited on 14-Jan-2019 13:00:05 by Subzero

Subzero
Jul Member 2009

Subzero

Posts: 23,266Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blackwing said:
If you want people to give compliments, you have to accept complaints too, and since this week was only half successful (patches but no new content), this week there was a complaint instead.


Actually, people listen to constructive complaints, not unreasonable bitching.


You cannot expect quality/gamechanging new content every week. In order for this to be possible the developers would have to skip sleeping. I don't think you truly understand how long it actually takes to develop an asset for a modern stylised game.



Here's an example:

• For OSRS I could probably 3D model a weapon from the concept art in about 3 hours. This is because they only use vertex colour (no textures), and only use low poly geometry.

• For RS3 it could easily take me 2-3 days, because the models use several textures and sometimes animated materials. It also would likely require me to make two 3D models - one high-poly model which I use to reproject detail, and one low-poly model which goes in game. I also have to UV/give it texture coordinates which you normally don't have to do in OSRS.


This is just the Art side, from an experience artist. If you apply the same to the code then you'll see why it takes considerably longer to produce content. Combat content for example is way more complicated in RS3 than it is in OSRS, so programming is would take drastically longer, but the end result has more depth.
Subzero

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14-Jan-2019 12:58:27 - Last edited on 14-Jan-2019 13:21:58 by Subzero

Daibhi
Sep Member 2017

Daibhi

Posts: 894Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Subzero said:
He makes no good points,and the ones he tries to make demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of how development studios work, and how content has evolved over time.

Do you want Quality or Quantity? You're looking at this with rose tinted goggles and I'm going to prove this to you: Close your eyes and think about the worst Quests in the game- the ones that were tedious and boring.

For the most part you'll think about old Quests; the ones which most people now hate doing. Most players I know and have come across in the game generally see Quests as a chore, but find the newer ones acceptable because they are considerably better produced when compared to the old ones.


While you are replying to Blackwing I have to say I suppose you're right, to an extent, quality over quantity is better. I personally don't think there are many old quests that are particularly difficult to do though? Although saying that.. my memory isn't exactly the best but I do remember the more recent quests that were released.

When you mention the worst quests in the game, although you did say tedious and boring, my mind more jumps to the difficulty and how it's implemented.

For example, Broken Home is the first one that comes to mind. Whoever thought that quest was a good idea needs to be punished in a mild way for all the agony it causes haha, I absolutely detested how that quest was designed when I was playing it. The story? It was good.. entertaining in its own way.

But with how Runescape plays? Nope. If it was something done in a console type game, action/adverture or even horror that would work but all those rooms it was like playing on an interactive slideshow.

Combat as well - if it fits the story? Do it, no problem with that. But difficulty in quests doesn't need to be combat, puzzles are just as difficult if not actually more difficult to some extent. It isn't PVM.

14-Jan-2019 13:08:29

Subzero
Jul Member 2009

Subzero

Posts: 23,266Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Daibhi said:
Broken Home is the first one that comes to mind.


Broken home was a fantastically-produced Quest though. It was entirely self-contained and a unique memorable quest. I enjoyed it the first time I played it, and I generally see all Quests as a chore; but find the new ones ok.


The thing they did wrong was force people to replay it under time pressure for the proper reward. That was a mistake, and it's one I think they've learned from. Quests are a linear experience, and forcing people to replay the exact same content for the proper reward is not a good idea.


Plus, we have guides for most Quests, so difficulty becomes almost irrelevant if you have access to YouTube.


When I think of bad recent Quests, I think of Sliske's Endgame. That Quest was fantastic; except for the shit 2 hour maze they threw into it to pad the playtime which ruined what was otherwise a good quest.
Subzero

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14-Jan-2019 13:17:32 - Last edited on 14-Jan-2019 13:19:41 by Subzero

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