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Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Since coming back I've noticed that there are still a few questions and concerns stemming from my recent performance as Jacob Delvar aka Arenaride.

Hopefully this thread will address a few of them.

Firstly I would like to just point out that as Arenaride I was accepted, acknowledged and even sometimes liked by this community. Is it time to acknowledge the fact that I am in fact a perfectly and entirely capable roleplayer who is just as capable of contributing positively to W42 as anyone else.

Secondly I thought it might be helpful if I laid out the events of that period as the story (or part of a story) that they were always meant to be.

- Lord Pyro calls for a crusade against those he perceives as the enemies of Zamorak and himself under the brand of the "Ash Legion".

- He calls his new followers to rally for an attack on the goblins, resolving to use them as a testing ground for the level of support he can expect in the wars to come.

- Severely underwhelmed by the number of volunteers coming to fight in his crusade he concludes that he must find alternative means to secure his goals. Resolving to "go it alone" for a while, he orders the Union into dormancy and does not go ahead with the attack on the goblins. No battle occurs.

- Lord Pyro waits several months before assuming the identity of a surviving member of a long lost Kandarin noble House. Since the family fell into disgrace with their final fate unknown he is accepted with surprising readiness.

- As Jacob Delvar he begins to "make a name for himself" by helping various people out and expanding his influence within the Kandar Empire

- To his surprise Lord Pyro finds his alter ego offered the crown that is in his mind rightfully his already. Taking advantage of the opportunity presented he accepts.

- Lord Pyro convinces the Emperor to reunite Asgarnia under the Empire so that the lands they are occupying will be brought under his rule and thus his protection.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

11-Feb-2019 19:58:27

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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- As Lord Pyro had never intended to remain a spy forever and is intent on reducing the power and influence of the Kandar Empire, he concludes that handing the kingdom over to a trusted ally is his best option, however to keep his options open he resolves to make this look like a coup attempt.

- Lord Pyro begins deliberately installing supporters of his chosen successor in key positions of power throughout Asgarnia. In the meantime he orders as many of the Imperial soldiers within Asgarnia as possible to march north under the pretext of dealing with the threat of the Kinshra.

-Once the coup is complete Lord Pyro maintains the facade for sometime while he waits for any sign that the Kandar Empire might be launching an attempt to retake lost territory. When no attempt appeared Jacob Delvar was reported to have returned to his lands in Kandarin in disgrace while he became more active as his more well known persona.

So there you have it. Not a terrible story thread in my humble opinion particularly for the unscripted story that is W42's history but I will leave others to judge that for themselves.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

11-Feb-2019 19:58:34 - Last edited on 11-Feb-2019 20:11:05 by Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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FAQs

Question: How can you justify creating an alt-account to trick people into accepting your IC deception?

Answer:

I have three main arguments here:

1. It prevents Metagaming.

Not just deliberate metagaming but also incidental incidents of it that arise from knowing the truth OOC'ly without knowing it IC'ly over an extended period of time. There exists an incredibly grey area, in which your character attempts to learn the truth about something, notices some subtle hint that something is wrong or is otherwise able to eventually deduce the truth because all your actions, all your conclusions will be coloured by the fact that OOC'ly you already know that the character is a a spy.

2. It is less cruel.

Imagine for a moment the alternative scenario, someone joins your POK making it clear as they do so that they are a spy seeking to bring down your regime. If the POK leader in question has any attachment to their POK it seems unfair to focus them to interact with you day after day knowing that you are trying to tear them down.

3. Stories are about surprises.

What we are doing here, in a very real way is crafting stories. Many people are dismissive of the idea that they would be frightened by an rp but when you think about it invoking emotion is in many ways one of the fundamental purposes of story writing. So we must make sure that the surprise felt is if possible, not only an IC one but an OOC one or how can it have any kind of real impact.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

11-Feb-2019 19:58:40 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2019 17:50:59 by Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Adventurerrr said:
Lord Pyro I said:


So there you have it. Not a terrible story thread in my humble opinion particularly for the unscripted story that is W42's history but I will leave others to judge that for themselves.


GASP, he said HIS opinion? OH MY, now if he can keep saying that.


Really not capable about talking about the actual topic are we?
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

11-Feb-2019 22:06:41

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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I would add that people I met on W42 even people who are posting here now did not seem to know all the details even yesterday. That is what prompted me to post this thread, believing that perhaps not everyone on W42 involved had heard about it yet.

Also I'll fill in the FAQs tomorrow with questions that have already come up, both on the thread and in game.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

11-Feb-2019 23:17:02

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Ok so quite a bit of activity to address here it seems.

@Tuffty Apologies for the disruption caused by this thread. It's purpose was simply to explain more clearly a very complex RP event. Your understanding is very much appreciated.

@Vekon thank you for being understanding but a couple of points to note.

1. Although your character as stated can normally pick up on Mahjarrat, Pyro was aware that he might encounter individuals with those types of abilities during the deception. During the 1,000 year exile that takes place in Pyro's backstory he learned many magical techniques that allow him to conceal himself much more thoroughly than most Mahjarrat ever bother to.

2. As I recall and have shared with others, we did discuss both the topic of unifying Asgarnia and of moving Imperial troops around and your subsequent consent in both instances.

@Croco

1) Yes 2) Yes 3) No except where that contradicts 1 and 2 I guess 4) Not sure why you wouldn't use a new character on the same account 5) Yes

I will explain more thoughts on this topic more clearly on the FAQs (it was actually one of the main issues I intended to address there)

@Otilio It's an area to which I've given a considerable amount of thought. Take a look at page 1 to see my arguments to suggest that it is in fact the correct approach
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 17:33:48 - Last edited on 12-Feb-2019 17:35:33 by Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Marshal Jor said:
Pyro, this isn't Murder on the Orient and no one really gives one for your reasoning.

Treachery and deception in my eyes should mean you be blacklisted by the W42 community.


Well quite, why would roleplaying have anything to do with a story...

Except actually everything we do is to do with stories so I'm not really sure I see your point.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 17:59:58

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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CrocoNuts said:
@Pyro

Adding to question 4 why someone could do this. To avoid being called out for being a landhogger or perhaps to be known as someone who doesn't give new people a chance.


Then no I wouldn't consider that acceptable.

@Otilio

1. But what level of skepticism is reasonable? At what point do your suspicions become OOC'ly motivated by the knowledge that the person is a spy? The fact of the matter is there are many, many rpers who are happy to completely ignore metagaming as a rule. And even in those that do obey it, it is impossible to know how they would respond if they didn't have that OOC knowledge. The simple fact that you know influences decision making, willingly or not.

2. I understand the desire to communicate and manage expectations so that disappointments and frustration are minimised I really do. In any other area I would agree but not in this one. Regardless of the fact that you feel you could handle it, not everyone can say the same particularly as it is one of the few areas that genuinely promotes stress (try being a Spy King). Besides all POK leaders need to have a certain attachment to their POK and its projects in order to be any good. That doesn't mean they are incapable of accepting they might lose it one day, they may even have an end in mind.

3. My identity is so interwoven in my character's intentions that you couldn't possibly separate the two. Moreover it has to be an OOC reveal to create OOC shock or surprise. Is it worthy of disapproval? Maybe. Once you had sorted through all the far worse issues we have seen on W42 that are still ongoing. Sort out the open mockery and bullying before you come to me complaining about how I wasn't completely honest about the way I'm playing this game with you. People still matter far more than the way I play this game and always will.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 19:49:25

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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@Jor This is truly hysterical.

If deception is a sign of fascism then the French underground was some strange form of support for German occupation.

It is particularly strange when the group I subverted were the ones who decided, even during the time I was infiltrating them to shut down your POK at a whim. Has it occurred to you at any point that, that fundamentally was why I was trying to bring them down? So that you could run the RPs you wanted to, when you wanted to, with the people that you wanted to. I have ruled W42 before and have no desire to do so again, I gave Asgarnia up for that very purpose.

You speak of us as having a "double standard" for excluding the Kinshra and preventing what they were attempting at that Camp. In this argument you have a point.

We do fight against excluding people from RP and it frankly did not sit well with myself or Ridaku. If you are disappointed with us for compromising that principle I can understand that and I am sorry. It was not part of my plan, it was not something I wanted and it was not even within my power to prevent it but I do understand why Ridaku did it.

I spent several months infiltrating the Empire and rising through the ranks. I attended and even lead many, many RPs and promoted a noteworthy and perhaps even praiseworthy amount of activity. I took actions that fitted perfectly into the existing arc of my characters on W42.

They did not. The Camp was created through a few forum posts and discord messages used to bring a rentamob and place them right in the heart of the Kingdom as a direct threat to a new born POK. It was done not to promote activity or to further a storyline or for any other positive reason but solely to attack a POK because of the OOC grudge held against its leadership.

(cont)
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 20:18:04

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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(cont)

When I started RPing there was a rule known as Randoming. That was attacking someone for no reason or over an OOC motivation. Under that rule the Camp could legitimately be blacklisted for their conduct. It is an old disused rule, I admit that and I don’t claim that it was actively in affect in any way on that day but it does underscore a fundamental point that explains why I cannot consider their actions to be reasonable or fair.

To those that perpetrated this action, this is no more than one example out of many, many times they have done this. And indeed there is also just as many instances in which I was blacklisted simply because I was the antagonist. The only reason that this event is so infamous is because of the infamy of those involved. The ones that have blown this event out of all proportion are the real hypocrites.

We showed double standards perhaps but to a far lesser degree than those we are trying to oppose.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 20:18:12

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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@Croco finding out that your new friend on w42 has decided to betray your POK has always been a possibility even with alt-accounts and always will be.

Finding out that your new friend on w42 is in fact someone you always hated on here before is simply an opportunity to gain a new perspective.

Abuses of this are I accept possible but creating a rule against alt-accounts will do nothing to discourage those who wish to abuse it. With the ability to enforce such rules on W42 essentially non existent it makes this point entirely irrelevant to this debate (because creating a rule against it would have no impact on this issue).

However I am happy to see the opening of debate on this issue even if I will be arguing the opposite case.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 20:33:05

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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I was referring to the fact that our rule system is so massively abused as to almost mean nothing whatsoever.

As to the points you raise:

- Have assassinations (regicide) done easier - Good. The only impact alt-accounts have on this issue is to prevent people from protecting their characters by metagaming the intentions of the character seeking to kill them.
- Constantly have hold of land within a family - They do this already and it would be extremely surprising to see this work more than once if at all as new rpers rarely rise so fast so quickly
- Create (metagame level bordering) spy schemes - Spying is not metagaming not even with an alt. Be more vigilant if you want to prevent it from occurring.
- Summon up rofl armies and create traitors without effort - No rofl armies are impossible because directing even two alts at once would not create a particularly convincing illusion. As for traitors? See my answers to assassination and spying.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 21:28:34

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Marshal Jor said:
@Pyro, did you hire Donald Trump to write that drivel? I have no idea why National Socialism was brought up but okay.

You are excluding people though, you're blacklisting left right and centre like you're Serena Williams at Wimbledon.

The only reason why the camp was a threat was because you couldn't simply hand it over to RiDaku, so you both went to extreme measures to discred it and metagame it your way...

you three will always remain a risk to allowing people the freedom to roleplay, and, any form of dictatorship or censorship should always not be tolerated.


You brought up fascism.

Who am I excluding?

Dictatorship is currently the default state of being on W42.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

12-Feb-2019 22:03:37

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Hazbollah said:
Vekon said:
RiDaku said:
The fact that it was Pyro on an alt shouldn't be an aggressive slap in the face, he wasn't doing it to snake anybody. The goal of Arenaride wasn't to shake Asgarnia up.


Bragging about having deceived and duped everyone in a public space is probably not the correct technique to assure someone that you weren't doing it snake anyone, though. When you combine that with the reputation he's built for himself, and seeing as he's not some magically changed man, people are going to feel a certain way about it.

That's the difference between him and Castigo. Legitimately, I had Castigo marked down as one of the most horrendous people I had ever encountered. And it wasn't because of some silly RP shit, but rather interpersonal relationships and how seriously damaged he was. And he'll admit it, too. He's not that person anymore, and it shows.


This is well said.

Here we have a pretty "holier than thou" approach. You guys seem proud of it.


I didn't manipulate anyone, I didn't harm anyone I just carried out an IC plot. Hardly the greatest crime W42 has ever seen because it is not even a crime.

P.S. Castigo was a lot worse when he returned. He left as an RPer with some bad habits but a refreshingly active approach. He returned as a condescending cynic who advised me to treat the members of my POK like they were children.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

13-Feb-2019 00:16:42 - Last edited on 13-Feb-2019 00:20:03 by Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Dad Bodx said:
Vekon said:
Dad Bodx said:
This is getting way out of hand. You two break lore like a fat kid breaks chairs. Cease.


You are about as original as a forgery.


You're about as correct as autocorrect


For all that I dislike your approach to pretty much everything, I will credit you with not being as bad as Vekon.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

13-Feb-2019 00:17:24

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Marshal Jor said:
Taya Lei said:
Can we all be loving and kind to each other instead of being toxic?


Yeah that’s unfortunately not going to be possible at the moment with certain groups :(

@Pyro, you didn’t harm anyone, yet you still tried to undermine other RPs and bring about your terrible idea of a council.

@RiDaku, you don’t need alt accounts to spy. I had 5 others assisting me in exposing Arena as Pyro and expose what you three were up to.


Good job on the exposing part... though frankly I can't say I noticed much

I tried to undermine the Kandar Empire. It is a charge I freely admit to though I would question that it could be called a crime.

As for the council, I don't know how to say this other than it wasn't intended to be what you seem to believe it would have been. You are welcome to believe anything you like about the council but it does seem slightly unfair to claim to know the intentions of an organisation that never even existed. Unless I'm wrong, there is no way for you to know what I intended but if I'm wrong about that could you tell me what next week's lottery numbers will be?
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

13-Feb-2019 18:19:39

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Marshal Jor said:
@pyro, I’m just waiting for you to blow out your ditty bag.

Of course you wouldn’t have noticed, most people are wonderful actors :).

P.s a certain voice call was recorded and has been transcribed.

@cookies, yeah but he won’t to admit riding Saradomin.]


You're aware that by "didn't notice" I meant that your investigation had no impact on my plans?
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

14-Feb-2019 19:13:28

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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@Eden the "wouldn't it be great if everyone was nice to each other" argument is frankly getting old.

As ever it is used in a way that is insanely one sided and ultimately rediculous because one glance at this thread will confirm that we are not talking about people that are prepared to be reasonable.

P.S. Given how much you contributed to the demise of W42, please take your advise for fixing it elsewhere.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

17-Feb-2019 15:07:49

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Vekon said:
Nicely written.

OOC deceit is absolutely abhorrent. We're here to make stories, not tell lies for the sake of experiments and power. Be honest with your peers. If you think you need to use a different identity to interact and be accepted by others, that alone says plenty about the sort of person you've made of yourself.


Actually it only says something about the toxic community we find ourselves in.

I find it hilarious that you begin a review of Croco's statement with "OOC deceit is absolutely abhorrent" given I could scarcely imagine a more misleading way of explaining the topic at hand. Making a case that blacklists are a force for good from a group that have only ever abused that system in every way imaginable.

Don't like someone? Blacklisted
Being invaded? Blacklisted
Attacking someone but your character gets killed in the process? Blacklisted

There may be many, perfectly valid reasons for blacklisting people but I have no interest in being lectured by those that have never shown any interest in respecting those rules.

To be completely honest I find it laughable (if not surprising) that you are painting yourselves as the victims (yes you are) here. I freely confess that I lied and yet I cannot see that what I did was any more than a drop in the ocean compared to those that would accuse me.

@Eden you contributed by never caring about anyone else's enjoyment other than your own and as shown here, absolutely refusing to accept that you could ever have done anything wrong. You were not the worst offender in many ways, I can't recall you directly pushing many people around while you were here but you sure as hell supported those that did.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

18-Feb-2019 19:08:10

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Okay let's get this over with.

I apologize for all the hurt that I caused when I used Arenaride as an alt account. I did it purely because I felt it was necessary for the goals I was trying to achieve. A special apology to Castigo incidentally, I could see that you were trying to help out someone that you saw as a new player. I'm sorry I never came up with the Asgarnia you were hoping for but I don't think I ever could have even if I had stuck with Jacob Delvar.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

18-Feb-2019 22:41:43

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Vekon said:
CrocoNuts said:
Lord Pyro I said:
Okay let's get this over with.

I apologize ...
... I'm sorry


A step in the right direction. Thank you for your apology.


Thank you for saying so.

I'm going to try a new approach of being friendlier and showing more respect to you all. Unfortunately I can't take credit for this idea as Eden was the one that managed to talk me into it.

I'm also going to try to be honest about my future plans and intentions. Which is why I am announcing here and now that it is my intention to create a new Misthalin based POK in the near future to bring activity to the area.

To calm some immediate concerns I want to assure everyone here that I will be using a 100% genuine human character and that this will have nothing whatsoever to do with Zamorak's Union or anything relating to it or even Zamorakians in general.

I just want to use my skills in this area to create something that everyone can enjoy.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

19-Feb-2019 21:13:36

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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CrocoNuts said:
Nice! Bringing activity to an area is good.
I'm curious though, if you had to pick someone to interact with as Misthalin.


This one?


Or this one?


When I run Misthalin each member of my POK will be free to decide for themselves who to acknowledge. You are already aware of my personal choice here but I hope that will not cause any issues with the other POKs of W42.

@Goblin You may do so yes
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

20-Feb-2019 18:49:21

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28-Feb-2019 19:50:59

Lord Pyro I

Lord Pyro I

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Ms Toxicity said:
Some inappropriate posts have been removed,

Please remember that posting negative remarks about another player is neither welcome nor permitted in these forums.


Thanks. Would you mind locking this thread now? It's well past being useful at this stage.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

06-Mar-2019 14:35:41

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