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Saradomin being unethical

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iXavior

iXavior

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Is it me or is Saradomin's plan to bring back long dead centaurs/troops through the wand of resurrection unethical? I am a firm believer that the dead should stay dead. Saradomin is basically robbing people out of their afterlife, like how Nomad did to create Gielinor. He is simply no better than Nomad. He is defying the natural order of nature.

His actions clearly falls under
necromancy
, an extremely immoral "dark" form of magic that even Death and Icthlarin detests as an abomination. I had a debate in the Lore FC about whether or not Saradomin's actions should be considered Necromancy.

I say yes. I define necromancy as any form of magic influencing the dead, whether that be to passively communicate with them, resurrect their corpses, summoning a spirit, controlling their soul (like Sliske's wights). Summoning a soul out of the afterlife to force them back into their dead body is clearly necromancy.

Also, by the looks of Sir Owen's arm, the wand clearly does not deem Saradomin as a virtuous being. Anyone who gets resurrected by Saradomin will still be partially dead. They aren't completely resurrected. Those poor handicapped centaurs!

___________

And here another thing unethical about Saradomin. Saradomin openly knows that the wand deems him unworthy. Yet, he is willing to abuse it to bring back malformed, semi-resurrected, half-undead soldiers.

Quote from Death of Chivalry:
Sir Owen: The urge to destroy boils within me. The corruption claws at my mind.
Saradomin: Sir Owen...
Sir Owen: My body may be tainted, but my intentions are pure and virtuous.
Saradomin: For now...
(foreshadowing right here!!!)


Let me ask you a question: what kind of noble god would knowingly and purposely bring back corrupted soldiers? To have them slowly mentally suffer like Owen. Sooner or later, all the people Saradomin revives will succumb to their corruption.

The end result: an army of bloodthirsty monsters.
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

04-Apr-2016 00:45:41

iXavior

iXavior

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...cont

Also, let me clear something up. The wand deems Saradomin unworthy no matter what action you take in the quest. If you give the wand to Saradomin freely, he will blame his past deeds for Sir Owen's state. If you refuse to hand it over, he will take it by force, blaming his anger for Sir Owen's state.

We can infer that the former is the factor that is really judging Saradomin. Once he goes to revive the centaurs and dead knights, he will probably be in a rather contempt state, ruling out the notion that his anger is at fault for Owen's state (for those who rebelled against him). They will still be corrupted however, as the wand apparently will judge his past actions in whether or not they will be revived completely.

Many of you will also say that many of Saradomin's dead troops would be happy to be resurrected to fight for their god again. In my opinion, I don't think they'd want to be resurrected and slowly driven mad by the corruption that will be inflicted upon them... It will taint their soul, and once they die again, they will stay that way for all eternity....
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

04-Apr-2016 00:45:47 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2016 00:58:46 by iXavior

Raleirosen
Jun Member 2019

Raleirosen

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I'm pretty sure Saradomin isn't planning on resurrecting the centaurs himself, since it's pretty obvious he's not up to the wand's standards... maybe I'm misremembering his intentions.

On the topic of necromancy -- I think it's clear that the nature of the wand is not "immoral" or "dark," as far as we can tell. At the very least, it was used by the centaurs with no adverse or visibly evil effects. So saying that necromancy is 100% evil/dark/immoral is probably untrue.
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

04-Apr-2016 00:56:51

iXavior

iXavior

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Raleirosen said:

On the topic of necromancy -- I think it's clear that the nature of the wand is not "immoral" or "dark," as far as we can tell. At the very least, it was used by the centaurs with no adverse or visibly evil effects. So saying that necromancy is 100% evil/dark/immoral is probably untrue.



Well there are critics like me that think necromancy is evil and immoral. The wizards at the Wizard tower and wizard's guild outlaws this form of magic. The wizard under the wizard guild apparently has to keep his necromancy works a secret. Death and Icthlarin would probably also back me up on this, seeing how they approached Nomad's actions. To rob a soul of it's afterlife...to force a soul to work again after being sent to their "eternal resting place" is just taboo to me. It defies the natural order of the universe.
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

04-Apr-2016 01:06:14

Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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Saradomin is not trying to raise an army of zombies here. He never intended to be the one to resurrect the centaurs at all. There's a reason that he chose Sir Owen and the World Guardian for this mission. He knew that they would be virtuous enough to use the wand whereas he would not be. The only reason he used the wand to bring back Sir Owen is because he was literally the only one powerful enough to do it. After Dawn had corrupted him and he had been killed a second time, his spirit was rapidly fading. Only a god could revive him at that point, and it had to be done immediately.

You can't compare what Nomad did to what Saradomin plans to do. Nomad stuffed souls into his abomination of a god, whereas Saradomin plans only to give them back the life they once had. He wants to give them a second chance since their lives were cut short fighting in his wars. "In the hands of one devoted to good, the wand could be used to return lost heroes to life. Innocents. Those who didn't deserve to die."

Of course, you might think that "the dead should stay dead" but if the dead -want- to return to life, why shouldn't they? Because it's against nature? If defying nature is such a big deal, then you should probably not be using a computer, or getting vaccines, or using any kind of technology whatsoever.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

04-Apr-2016 01:06:52

Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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iXavior said:
Death and Icthlarin would probably also back me up on this, seeing how they approached Nomad's actions. To rob a soul of it's afterlife...to force a soul to work again after being sent to their "eternal resting place" is just taboo to me. It defies the natural order of the universe.
You know, unless that soul's name is Zanik.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

04-Apr-2016 01:09:04 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2016 01:09:42 by Jexel L

Lord Remus

Lord Remus

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Nercomancy and things like Demon summoning can be considered tools that beings use for various purposes. It's not the practices themselves that are inherently "good" or "evil" but rather the intent of the user.

For example, we invented hammers for building things and breaking things. It is not the hammer's fault if someone picks it and lodges it into someone else's head.

If Saradomin uses the wand via someone else to bring back the centaurs in a none corrupt form and said centaurs actually want to return then I would consider his actions "morally" sound. Assuming he also released those who didn't want to return.
I'm Godless although I consider myself Independent/Unaligned I "We create ourselves through life. Every victory, every failure and every lesson learned from them... Make us who we are. Once we have lived life to it's end, that is when we realise who we are... or more accurately, who we were."

04-Apr-2016 01:22:24

iXavior

iXavior

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Jexel L said:

You can't compare what Nomad did to what Saradomin plans to do. Nomad stuffed souls into his abomination of a god, whereas Saradomin plans only to give them back the life they once had. He wants to give them a second chance since their lives were cut short fighting in his wars. "In the hands of one devoted to good, the wand could be used to return lost heroes to life. Innocents. Those who didn't deserve to die."

Of course, you might think that "the dead should stay dead" but if the dead -want- to return to life, why shouldn't they? Because it's against nature? If defying nature is such a big deal, then you should probably not be using a computer, or getting vaccines, or using any kind of technology whatsoever.


But how do we determine whether people want to be resurrected from the ones that don't? They seem pretty happy in the Saradominist's afterlife. An afterlife with no wars, no discrimination and eternal bliss. Who is he to force them? And if he doesn't resurrect them, who will? Is there even such thing as a truly, virtuous noble soul out there? Virtuousness and nobility are a contruct of society. We all have negative deeds in our past lives. Only Elora, the maker of the wand, could tell you that, and that would only be her definition of virtuousness. Apparently, not even her god fit her description.

Also, don't cross real life aspects to fictional in-game lore. They are completely different with similar context. By that logic, it should also be acceptable to kill anyone ***** nilly in real life like in rs.
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

04-Apr-2016 01:22:31 - Last edited on 04-Apr-2016 01:32:23 by iXavior

Zack3

Zack3

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Wouldn't it be funny if sara revived the centaurs, and the centaurs were like: "why did u revive us?" "we were happy in the afterlife, why u took that away from us?!!!" and all the centaurs began to complain about being revived, and Sara was paralyzed in confusion unable to think on how to react to that. :P

04-Apr-2016 01:31:33

iXavior

iXavior

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Zack3 said:
Wouldn't it be funny if sara revived the centaurs, and the centaurs were like: "why did u revive us?" "we were happy in the afterlife, why u took that away from us?!!!" and all the centaurs began to complain about being revived, and Sara was paralyzed in confusion unable to think on how to react to that. :P


He'd probably ripped out their legs or tails like Garlandia. How dare you refuse to fight!

And because of this, they can't even commit suicide, as there is no guarantee they will return to the same peaceful afterlife as before, now....
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

04-Apr-2016 01:35:26

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