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Nomad Hardmode - MQC or not?

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Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Wahisietel said:
I don't get why people argue that a harder version of the most iconic quest boss of all time shouldn't be on the cape.

Quests are not just story, they are also gameplay, and the original Nomad fight is one of the most iconic pieces of quest gameplay in the game. For many of us, pre-EOC Nomad's Requiem was our final challenge before we obtained the original quest cape.

After EOC made him a joke, we've not really had anything close to the difficulty Nomad was back then, and when things DID approach that difficulty, they got nerfed (TokHaar-Hok, Grimsson/Hreidmar).

We're obviously never going to get a tough boss required for the quest cape again, but now we have an opportunity to give the master cape something to rival the original, pre-eoc Nomad in terms of difficulty. As questers, we should embrace this. The master cape should be more than a grinding and RNG cape, there should be some actual challenge involved, just like the original quest cape.


The quest itself is already required, obviously. No point in making people go back and go through an extra boss battle just for the hell of it. Nomad has already been canonically defeated, unless defeating him again gives us access to more content or lore, it's entirely unnecessary.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

08-Sep-2016 14:39:54

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Wahisietel said:
Chaos Lupus said:
Wahisietel said:
I don't get why people argue that a harder version of the most iconic quest boss of all time shouldn't be on the cape.

Quests are not just story, they are also gameplay, and the original Nomad fight is one of the most iconic pieces of quest gameplay in the game. For many of us, pre-EOC Nomad's Requiem was our final challenge before we obtained the original quest cape.

After EOC made him a joke, we've not really had anything close to the difficulty Nomad was back then, and when things DID approach that difficulty, they got nerfed (TokHaar-Hok, Grimsson/Hreidmar).

We're obviously never going to get a tough boss required for the quest cape again, but now we have an opportunity to give the master cape something to rival the original, pre-eoc Nomad in terms of difficulty. As questers, we should embrace this. The master cape should be more than a grinding and RNG cape, there should be some actual challenge involved, just like the original quest cape.


The quest itself is already required, obviously. No point in making people go back and go through an extra boss battle just for the hell of it. Nomad has already been canonically defeated, unless defeating him again gives us access to more content or lore, it's entirely unnecessary.


It gives access to a new cape :). Assuming it's a 100% drop for the first kill, it's pretty much the same as killing Dawn again for the Dulcin armour override.


Not what I meant by access to more content. Defeating Dawn again shouldn't be required either (and you already have Dulcin's armor from the quest anyway, you just unlock an override).
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

08-Sep-2016 16:07:37

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Wahisietel said:
Lynxlynx said:

okay, i'm not maxed or anything like that, i don't have any good gear, i'm not good at bossing, but come on! Wouldn't you call Nomad from Nomad's Elegy a hard boss?

Sorry Wahi, usually I agree with you, but not this time :(


If I was able to beat him with barely any effort when I was just using tetsu and drygores and a yak full of Rocktails, then no, he wasn't a hard boss. I didn't even avoid any of his specials.

But it's been a long time since the original pre-EOC Nomad fight, and those of us who did it are naturally stronger than we used to be. And I think having a post-quest actual challenge for the master quest cape would be acceptable.

Keep in mind the other master quest cape requirements already give you close to max combat stats and a free set of T85 gear, so anyone actually eligible should be well equipped to deal with him.


That's difficult to the vast majority of players. Most people don't have the free time to invest into getting tetsu and drygores.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

08-Sep-2016 16:10:47

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Hguoh said:
Hazeel said:
That's how a MQC should be obtained...through a passion for lore. Nothing else.


I'd like to point out that even if you did remove all the non-lore reqs, you'd still have to grind out KBD, QBD, GWD1 generals, Nex, and Ripper Demons for their lore drops. Most, if not all, of the PvM reqs are easier than Nex/Ripper Demons, so the cape would still have the same, 'You need to be this good at PvM to get this,' clause attached to it.


All of those provide access to lore, Nomad's hard mode does not. Whether or not books should only be accessible via boss drops in the first place is another matter.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 04:24:55 - Last edited on 09-Sep-2016 04:25:33 by Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Wahisietel said:
We're way off topic at this point, since this was supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Nomad fits on the Master Quest Cape as it stands right now (he does), and we're now discussing what the Master Quest Cape should be.

To me, it seems that your problem is that the Master Quest Cape represents ALL aspects of quests, and not just the ones you are personally interested in. But I'm curious, which specific requirements on the cape do you disagree with, and what is your reasoning for them?


Hard mode isn't part of the quest, it's just an extra challenge for those interested in bossing. The relevant boss fight is the one that we actually did in the quest.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 16:19:20

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Hguoh said:
Chaos Lupus said:
Wahisietel said:
We're way off topic at this point, since this was supposed to be a discussion about whether or not Nomad fits on the Master Quest Cape as it stands right now (he does), and we're now discussing what the Master Quest Cape should be.

To me, it seems that your problem is that the Master Quest Cape represents ALL aspects of quests, and not just the ones you are personally interested in. But I'm curious, which specific requirements on the cape do you disagree with, and what is your reasoning for them?


Hard mode isn't part of the quest, it's just an extra challenge for those interested in bossing. The relevant boss fight is the one that we actually did in the quest.


Since Wahi bothered to find and post the current criteria for MQC reqs here, this is the relevant bit:
Original message details are unavailable.
We will ask you to complete all quests, miniquests, unabridged sagas and story-oriented content. Story-oriented content is defined as:
...

- Content that asks the player to play expanded versions of content that featured in a quest (Temple Trekking)


The shoe fits.


There are already requirements for the MQC that shouldn't be there, that doesn't mean we should add more.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 18:56:14

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Hguoh said:
Chaos Lupus said:
There are already requirements for the MQC that shouldn't be there, that doesn't mean we should add more.


I'm afraid I really don't see the issue with requirements like Hard Mode Nomad. Unlike farming bosses for RNG-based lore drops, killing HM Nomad once or getting the Enhanced Fire Cape from the Kiln have well defined end points. So even if you don't like or aren't good at such content, you can at least take comfort in knowing you only have to do it so much and then never again.

It's true that such activities offer little to nothing when it comes to lore, but that really isn't all that important in this case. Sure, some quests are lore heavy, but others have little to none. And I believe it's important for the Master Quest Cape to delve deeper into all aspects of quests. So yeah, that means getting players to pursue lore. On the other hand, it also means getting that Enhanced Firecape, earning the Firemaker's costume, fully upgrading the Theives' Guild, lighting a specific fire on Mos Le'Harmless, or fully claiming a quest's rewards.

I understand wanting a reward tailored to Lorehounds, but I don't believe the MQC is the right outlet for this as lore is but one part, albeit a notable one, of questing.


It doesn't just have to be lore-related, but it should at least be relevant to quests in order to qualify as a requirement for the MQC. Nomad's hard mode is not, it's nothing but a boss fight. The relevant part was completed during Elegy. As Darkest said, if all expansion of any form of content in any quest should be included, then we may as well require maxed skills because we use skilling in quests.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 20:23:26

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Hguoh said:
Chaos Lupus said:
It doesn't just have to be lore-related, but it should at least be relevant to quests in order to qualify as a requirement for the MQC. Nomad's hard mode is not, it's nothing but a boss fight. The relevant part was completed during Elegy. As Darkest said, if all expansion of any form of content in any quest should be included, then we may as well require maxed skills because we use skilling in quests.


We use skilling in quests to either access the quest itself or complete a task within the quest.

Reqs on the MQC reflect this as the increased skill levels needed to obtain it are either used to claim a post quest reward DAT chests) or to complete a task in order to get a post quest reward (elder chronicles).

Obtaining max level in a skill doesn't typically do that (99 Runecrafting is needed for Sedridor's chest). The nearest comparison I can think of to requiring max skills for the MQC is if you required 200M xp to get a master (120) skill cape.


DAT requires 30 thieving. At 53 you can steal from desert bandits. The two are completely unrelated, as stealing from desert bandits does nothing to give you access to DAT and isn't required for you to complete it. The hard mode Nomad fight has the same relationship with Elegy, it's just as relevant as stealing from desert bandits is to DAT.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 20:36:46

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Wahisietel said:
Skills that are required for and used in quests obviously aren't the same thing as minigames, boss fights and other pieces of content that the quest introduces and unlocks, so enough with the strawman arguments.


Plague's End unlocks Prifddinas. Should every possible thing that can be done there be required for the MQC as well just because the quest introduced and unlocked it?
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

09-Sep-2016 20:44:43

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Lord Drakan said:
Chaos Lupus said:
Wahisietel said:
Skills that are required for and used in quests obviously aren't the same thing as minigames, boss fights and other pieces of content that the quest introduces and unlocks, so enough with the strawman arguments.


Plague's End unlocks Prifddinas. Should every possible thing that can be done there be required for the MQC as well just because the quest introduced and unlocked it?

You've already been over this. It's exactly like Livid Farm. If PE actually featured and unlocked Prifddinas content, yes, but it doesn't.


PE does unlock Prifddinas. And Elegy doesn't feature the hard mode Nomad fight. The rational here just doesn't hold up.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

10-Sep-2016 16:11:50

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