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Genocide!

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Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Once again there is a distinction between how the two races met their end. One was from constant warring at the command of their god (the same logic that would make Bandos responsible for genocide) and the other was the result of an individual literally nuking them all.


See Hazel's post above about how Armadyl brought the entire race into Forinthry. You really don't think Armadyl is responsible for that?

I read it.

A final time. Armadyl bears partial responsibility, as he was the one commanding them, but Zamorak was the one who most directly caused their destruction.

Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.
Armadyl is indirectly responsible for the Aviansie.
Zamorak is directly responsible for the Aviansie.
Edge goes to Zamorak.

If I wanted to be completely fair, I could give different point values based off direct and indirect actions similar to Sliske's point system, but that's more complicated than I care to make a simple thread that is more or less tongue in cheek.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:58:04 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:00:31 by Unicornz pwn

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Cthris said:
NotFishing said:
Cthris said:
It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.


Was that the exact wording? Because to me, that only suggests he looked for survivors to see if there was still some hope for her race to continue. What would he gain by hunting her to extinction?

You can listen r to it yourself but I'm pretty sure the exact words were ensure in the context of cause. What would be the point of saying Zaros looked for them when the question asked was whether they still existed es. Also the reason to do so was to cause a Mega powerful Char, due to her grief she gained all these extra ordinary powers that most of her race didnt.


It's not just the above the Lore podcast. Take a look at the lore and history, 'Twice Burnt':

In it, Zamorak states that Zaros sent them to a barbarian village in search of something and told them to bring Char. Once there, Char is captured and discovers that some other Auspah still live and have been made slaves in this village (something Zaros was almost certainly aware of, given he had them take Char). This enraged Char, unleashing and intensifying her power over fire and leading to her razing the village and likely killing the remains of her people (which Zaros could very well have predicted).

What is interesting to note, however, is that nothing about Char's unleashed power was recorded in the book meant for Zaros (in other words, he might not have been made aware of her increased power over fire until she reawakened and demonstrated it).

22-Dec-2016 02:59:39

NotFishing

NotFishing

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Unicornz pwn said:
Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.


That isn't fair. You're basically dumping all the blame on Saradomin's shoulders because you don't know who really was responsible.

If someone robs a bank and gets away with it, you don't lock up the bank owner because he handed over the money.
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

22-Dec-2016 03:22:57 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:26:58 by NotFishing

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.


That isn't fair. You're basically dumping all the blame on Saradomin's shoulders because you don't know who really was responsible.

If someone robs a bank and gets away with it, you don't lock up the bank owner because he handed over the money.

That's a really poor analogy.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 03:31:31

Mewzard
May Member 2019

Mewzard

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Actually, wouldn't Fern be directly responsible for the Centaur's death? She was warned that the centaurs were at risk by Bree, ignored it, brought in her sister to revive them repeatedly, then tried to do it herself when she died by using her horn, which brought them back as corrupted centaur zombies that killed the rest on Gielinor that weren't with Zilyana.

I mean, she literally said:

"Fern: Thanks to me, the centaurs are nearly extinct."

More specifically:

"Fern: My people looked to me, begging me to revive their loved ones.

Fern: In desperation, I cut the horn from my dead sister's forehead. I used it to raise my people.

Fern: I was not virtuous like my sister. I did not deserve to wield that great power.

Fern: The centaurs I raised were soulless undead, corrupt and wicked.

Fern: They thirsted for destruction. The corrupted set upon the living herds.

Fern: The undead centaurs turned against their families, and cut them down.

Fern: I could not control them. The centaur armies were destroyed by my folly. "

There's no real indication that Saradomin was informed of the plight of the Centaurs until after they were all but gone due to Fern's actions (I checked back on the transcripts of the quest to see, didn't see anything like that). He probably only saw the end result, corrupted Centaurs murdering people.

22-Dec-2016 03:31:49 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:32:34 by Mewzard

Padomenes
Apr Member 2015

Padomenes

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Unicornz pwn said:
NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.


That isn't fair. You're basically dumping all the blame on Saradomin's shoulders because you don't know who really was responsible.

If someone robs a bank and gets away with it, you don't lock up the bank owner because he handed over the money.

That's a really poor analogy.
I would actually say its pretty good. You can't blame the person who either let it happen or failed to stop it.

Genocide comes from intentions, otherwise its just extinction. In this case you have no evidence that Saradomin had the intention of genocide, only that some actions(not intentions) indirectly or directly lead to the extinction of some species.
Saradominist
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22-Dec-2016 04:26:10 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 04:28:33 by Padomenes

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
Unicornz pwn said:
NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.


That isn't fair. You're basically dumping all the blame on Saradomin's shoulders because you don't know who really was responsible.

If someone robs a bank and gets away with it, you don't lock up the bank owner because he handed over the money.

That's a really poor analogy.
I would actually say its pretty good. You can't blame the person who either let it happen or failed to stop it.

Genocide comes from intentions, otherwise its just extinction. In this case you have no evidence that Saradomin had the intention of genocide, only that some actions(not intentions) indirectly or directly lead to the extinction of some species.


Pads, a better analogy on your part would be this:

Somebody robs a bank and gets away with it.
People try to blame their landlord since the person stole the money to pay their rent.
The landlord had no reason to expect that the person would have robbed a bank in order to pay their rent, and so cannot be held responsible for the persons actions.

Yes, I don't consider Saradomin responsible for the extinction of the centaur race, that lies squarely on Fern's shoulders.

22-Dec-2016 04:57:12

Lego Miester
Jul Member 2019

Lego Miester

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Unicornz pwn said:
Seren is awarded one genocide point.


The last thing we need is another competition with a scoreboard.

Though if we are, Armadyl gets a point for roping the avianse into the god wars if Saradomin gets one for the centaurs.

Also does Bandos get separate points for every race? He experimented with breeding who knows how many of them, but we at least know of ourgs and fayrgs which we can't find around anymore. I want to give him at least 2 genocide points, and that's just for his own species, who the heck knows how many worlds that guy ravaged. I want to give him at least one omnicide point, which is worth three genocide points, for the destruction of Yu'biusk and all life on it.
Headcanon Haven, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.
OSRS Lore: Xeric

22-Dec-2016 06:26:24 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 06:29:01 by Lego Miester

ZAmorakZaros
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2013

ZAmorakZaros

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Vardan said:
Eh it wasn't Saradomin who pushed the centaurs to extinction:
Fern: Bree and I were his generals. We led the centaurs into battle.
Fern: The war against the gods raged on, for weeks, then months, then year after year.
Fern: The centaur herds were decimated.
Fern: We should have returned to the Enchanted Valley.
Fern: Bree cautioned me to abandon Saradomin's cause, before any more centaurs died in his name.
Fern: I was determined to keep fighting, and because he loved me, Bree acquiesced.
Fern: I was stubborn. I was foolish.
Sir Owen: Then what happened?
Fern: I convinced Elora to come with me to Gielinor, and aid us in the God Wars.
Fern: I urged to use her power to resurrect our people.
Fern: I assured her that if she did not, the centaurs would be extinct.
Fern: I was determined that, if only we continued to fight, we would soon turn the tide of the war.
Fern: I brought the dead and the dying to Elora.
Fern: With great sadness in her eyes, she brought them back to life.
Fern: I sent my people back to the battlefield, to die again in vain.

The blame seems to lie mostly with Fern. She doesn't say it was Saradomin who forced them to keep fighting. I doubt he would've let them all just leave though, so how about 1/2 a point, and if he lets them walk away it gets fully negated.

Edit: I wasn't going to bring this up since it's a waste of time, but since someone else did, what Saradomin did wasn't genocide. If he had deliberately wiped out the centaurs or Naragi then it would be, but he intended to conquer the Naragi not exterminate them, and he sure as hell didn't kill off the centaurs.

His actions weren't morally right but they weren't genocide.

It is like the case with armadyl and aviansie.
NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

22-Dec-2016 07:47:57

ZAmorakZaros
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2013

ZAmorakZaros

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Zamorak may have committed genocides when he was a mahjarrat. And who knows how many things died in that explosion.

And zaros may have done something during the empire.

And be prepared to give a lot of points to Jas...
NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

22-Dec-2016 07:51:39

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