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Saradomin and Guthix*spoilers*

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Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Cthris said:
Okay just for the record, does anyone have a source claiming Zamorak
had the majority? Or is all this conjecture?


There was a mod quote stating it, but it's not canon as far as I'm aware.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

19-Jan-2017 13:17:45

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Darc Oejder said:
Hazeel said:
Darc Oejder said:
If the majority joined Zamorak why did he team up with Saradomin against the remaining zarosians.


Because they shared a common enemy and Zamorak was naive enough to think Saradomin wouldn't betray him. That's the only reason he needs. He could have 95% of the Empire on his side and it'd still make more sense to join with Saradomin and fight the remaining forces rather than squabble amongst each other.


In Zemoregal's memory it is said that when Zamorak returned to Gilienor he attacked ALL the gods invading the empire and he tried to take the empire from the loyalists. That and the fact that Zamorak kept preaching chaos while Saradomin had been the god of order for eons means that they were enemies from the beginning and they joined forces against the empire none the less. Why would you join your worst nemesis if the situation isn't bad? Claiming Zamorak had 95% of the empire and still joined with Saradomin is ridiculous.

We know it took centuries to conquer the Zarosian citys and fortresses so saying most zarosians joined Zamorak quickly is grossly exaggerated opinion of Zamorak's appeal.

At least Zamorak is true to his philosophy, Saradomim had no such excuse to invade the empire and destroy all who didn't join him.


Entirely plausible, though I'd take everything in Zemouregal's memory with a grain of salt. There are too many major contradictions in it at this point (Zemouregal's knowledge of the Stone, Zamorak's condition after Zaros' defeat, etc.). And if Zamorak maintained the same disposition as he did while on Infernus, it's probable that he wasn't so much the one preaching chaos as it was his followers.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

19-Jan-2017 13:31:08

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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The memory also contradicts with the book of the gods about who drove who from Senntisten and CoM regarding the involvement of a tsutsaroth other than Thammaron and Zebub.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

19-Jan-2017 21:39:44

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

"The usurper's minions defeated Zaros's loyal followers, and now hold the Divine Palace. I write this from the palace of Nex, where she and Azzanadra are even now planning a counter-attack." - Book of the Gods

"Denied our leader, the rebel army fell back from the capital, although many former Zarosians flocked to our banner as news of what had occurred spread." - Zemouregal's Memory

The former states that the Zamorakians held the palace until Azzanadra's attack, the latter states that they fled after Zamorak's departure and Azzanadra's attack is what drove them from the city.

"The Tsutsaroth who ruled the Avernic demons were not so easily swayed. Zamorak offered to help them throw off the shackles of their oppressive enslavement to the Chthonians, and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion." - Zemouregal's Memory

This clearly isn't accurate as we know of at least one other who was willing to fight. His death occurring relatively early on doesn't change that.

And of course the biggest lore-fail of all, Zemouregal's knowledge of the Stone.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

19-Jan-2017 23:59:28

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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Darc Oejder said:
Chaos Lupus said:
@ Hguoh

"The usurper's minions defeated Zaros's loyal followers, and now hold the Divine Palace. I write this from the palace of Nex, where she and Azzanadra are even now planning a counter-attack." - Book of the Gods

"Denied our leader, the rebel army fell back from the capital, although many former Zarosians flocked to our banner as news of what had occurred spread." - Zemouregal's Memory

The former states that the Zamorakians held the palace until Azzanadra's attack, the latter states that they fled after Zamorak's departure and Azzanadra's attack is what drove them from the city.

"The Tsutsaroth who ruled the Avernic demons were not so easily swayed. Zamorak offered to help them throw off the shackles of their oppressive enslavement to the Chthonians, and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion." - Zemouregal's Memory

This clearly isn't accurate as we know of at least one other who was willing to fight. His death occurring relatively early on doesn't change that.

And of course the biggest lore-fail of all, Zemouregal's knowledge of the Stone.


Actually the one Kharshai captured wasn't a Tsutsaroth, he was far too weak to be one, he is definetly a greater demon. Avernic demons are not really that strong aside from Tsutsaroths so they don't have a say in anything so Zemoregal wouldn't mention them.


If it was a greater demon they would have used a greater demon's model. It was a butcher.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 00:18:30

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Darc

They just re-used/recolored those models because it was the easiest way to go. If it was a generic greater demon, they wouldn't have used a butcher. And they're not all equals, being a Tsutsaroth doesn't mean you're immune to Kharshai being able to incapacitate you. We don't exactly have any frame of reference other than this, where he clearly incapacitated and killed a Tsutsaroth.

Better question: Why isn't your personal motto a quote from the Jungle Book?
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 01:25:22

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

That's not how it's written. It's Zemouregal's memory, it's his recollection of how things happened, if there had been a gap in time that would have been worth mentioning rather than running off a list of what happened immediately afterward, then transitioning to a later time within the same paragraph. It could be that it was simply poorly written, but it's a contradiction as is.

The memory doesn't state that only Thammaron and Zebub actively fought in the rebellion, it says "...and still only Thammaron and Zebub had the wit and Imagination to actively fight for the rebellion." The butcher who was killed was clearly going along with it. And even if that contradiction didn't exist, there was another one fighting for Zamorak in the throne room anyway. And the idea that they weren't butchers is ridiculous as it's based on nothing and they very clearly use butcher demon models.

No, because that's not what fairy tale means. And he did know that the Staff was used to kill a god...
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 14:05:52

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Their memories aren't even written the same way. Akthanakos' doesn't transition from a running account of one scene to another at the end of the same paragraph, it's an account of how the Empire changed over the years. Again, it could just be poorly written, but that's the way it is as things currently stand.

"The wit and imagination to fight". That's kind of important here. And watch the cutscene again, there's clearly another butcher demon fighting against Mol'Zhar.

If he believed it had been destroyed he would simply have said that, instead he passed it off as a fabrication. It's pretty clear that at the time that dialogue was written, the intention was for the Stone to be a legend in the minds of most who had heard of it. And no, knowing how powerful the Staff is would make tales of the Stone's power much more realistic and believable.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 14:55:55

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Assassination of a god-emperor tends to get around pretty quickly. But for the third time, it could just be poorly written.

Except he clearly did have the wit and imagination to. He just didn't get very far. And we know that the Infernals weren't present at the betrayal, they're just built exactly like the Tsutsaroth, at least their current models.

But no information that we actually have implies that. Of course it's not impossible, it's just not based on anything. It seems like you're grasping at straws to try and connect the dots.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 22:18:27

Chaos Lupus

Chaos Lupus

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@ Hguoh

Which memories? Certainly not Akthanakos'.

He was a traitor hiding in Zaros' throne room, criticizing Kharshai's loyalty to Zaros with Zamorak's entourage minutes away. You can ignore the wording of the memory all you want, that doesn't change what it says.

Of course it's not impossible, just improbable. They clearly weren't tormented demons and they have the build and hooves of a Tsutsaroth, but we could always just ignore that.

Except you're disregarding all probable explanation in favor of twisting things to fit a number or other possible explanations with no actual basis.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

20-Jan-2017 23:35:56

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