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Starboy
Mar Member 2019

Starboy

Posts: 13Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Greetings to friends and foes alike. I write today with a sense of the utmost urgency.

As we progress further into the Sixth Age, and delve more profoundly into the antiquities of the Elder Gods, and the other "gods", perhaps more questions are found than answers. Yet one integral theme remains perspicuous: that the other so-called deities underneath the Elder Gods are not real gods at all.

To begin, we start with a look at some of the younger "gods", Saradomin and Zamorak. As is common knowledge, Saradomin was originally a human, and Zamorak a Mahjarrat. Both ascended to power through the usage of Elder Artifacts, created by the Elder Gods. Through absorption of the power of the artifacts, what is mistaken for godhood was achieved. The true divine power came from the artifacts, and these beings are mere containers of it. Without this catalyst, Saradomin and Zamorak would be shells of what they are today, and with or without noble intentions, it is evident both beings are usurpers and thieves of what rightfully belongs to the Elder Gods.

Next up are Seren and Zaros. Both created by Mah to be physical manifestations of light and dark energy, they were nothing more than glorified playthings of the Goddess. Although powerful in their own rights, their scope is far too narrow in comparison of the omniscient Elder Gods to be considered deities. Guardians of what the Elder Gods deemed too trivial to guard themselves is perhaps a more generous title than they deserve.

As for miscellaneous beings such as Tuska and Guthix, they fall much into the first category. Both were members of ephemeral races before amassing an impressive amount of power via absorbing the power of a previous being. Although they are powerful, they cannot be considered gods. A sheep cannot be called a wolf, no matter how much it may strive to be.

To conclude: the Elder Gods are the only true Gods, and what others mistakenly call gods are nothing more than glorified charlatans.

10-Jul-2016 12:25:59

Last Prophet

Last Prophet

Posts: 3,423Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
This really treads into murky territory.

What, exactly, defines a god?

As loathe as I am to use real-world examples, it seems that even we of planet Earth can't manage to agree upon the parameters of what it means to be God. You have those of us that think there exists an all-knowing, perfect, eternal being capable of suspending the laws of physics when the whim strikes. There are others who literally worshiped their leaders (see: Kemet, Rome, China) as gods. And there are still others who don't even believe in a being higher than your good-for-nothing neighbor next door.

I think you're being a little stingy here.
+
Athonen Lucrendis
+

~Creator of
Ikadia the Exile

&
Saradomin's
last prophet
~

10-Jul-2016 13:56:57 - Last edited on 10-Jul-2016 14:18:58 by Last Prophet

AesirWarrior

AesirWarrior

Posts: 1,054Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Gods do not have to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or any of that stuff. There's a colossal difference between God from monotheism, who is all those things, and the gods of polytheism who are far from all powerful or perfect. I'd even argue that there are several gods from real life that are weaker than the gods of RS. In fact, there are several instances from mythology of deities who used to be mortal men.

Give me a good, universal, definition of a god and then tell me they're not gods.
-
I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?
- We call it being a hero.

10-Jul-2016 16:08:02 - Last edited on 10-Jul-2016 16:10:00 by AesirWarrior

NotFishing

NotFishing

Posts: 16,705Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
OP, you cannot take your personal definition of a God from this world, and then apply it to a completely different world where Gods are actually confirmed to exist. On Gielnor, what separates a God from a Mortal?

The answer is simple - Gods possess a large amount of divine energy, will not die of natural causes, do not have an after life, and their energy can be absorbed by other beings. That is what a God is in this world. The Elder Gods may be stronger, older, and superior in pretty much every way, but that is why they are Elder Gods, and not just normal Gods.

AesirWarrior said:
Gods do not have to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or any of that stuff.


It's also worth mentioning that even if Gods did need to fulfill that criteria, the Elder Gods would still fail.

"Not even the Elder Gods know all and see all."
-Zaros
Beneath the gold, the Bitter Steel.

10-Jul-2016 16:33:30

Penny Drakis
May Member 2015

Penny Drakis

Posts: 774Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
NotFishing said:
AesirWarrior said:
Gods do not have to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent or any of that stuff.


It's also worth mentioning that even if Gods did need to fulfill that criteria, the Elder Gods would still fail.

"Not even the Elder Gods know all and see all."
-Zaros


Indeed. The mere existence of multiple Elder Gods hints at least a lack of omniscience, unless the Elders are aspects of a greater being, like the
Brahman
of Hinduism or the
Trinity
of Christianity. I think I remember hints that Mah, Bik, Ful, Wen, and Jas were aspects of
Time
, but that was canon a couple of years ago and was before hints of a sixth Elder God, and who knows if that was just the speculation of a mere mortal npc or even a creation of the Elders, trying to wrap their heads around the concept of the Elders.

One of the basic markers of sentience is the ability to think about your own mind and thoughts and recognize your own form. A step more advanced is the ability to think about the minds and thoughts of others and recognize them as fellow sentients, not mere toys for your entertainment and consumption. A step more advanced is the ability to deceive your fellow sentients. Multiple omnipotent beings which are not part of a greater omniscience can deceive and conceal things from each other, so their mere existence as individuals negates their omniscience. The illness that befell Mah and the surprising evolution of the Dragonkin in the last cycle negates the Elder's omniscience already.

Point is, if you are willing to admit polytheism, you have to admit the gods that make up the pantheon aren't omniscient. Even monotheistic religions that admit a lesser being that can defy and even work against the supreme god are stretching the meaning when they claim omniscience for their god.

Then again, omnipotence means that logic doesn't apply to you.
Humility is self-destruction, pride is the destruction of all else. And He said, "
Let there be light.
"
And then there were none.

10-Jul-2016 17:56:08

Sepulchre
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,505Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It all depends on how you define a "God."
If a God has to be someone of divine origin, then only the Elders and Zaros/Seren are truly gods.
If a God needs to be someone with the power to create life, then only the Elders would be truly gods.
If a God is someone who is followed, worshipped, or deified by other people, then technically all of them are considered gods.
If a God is meant to be powerful enough to control or influence mortals with only their presence, then perhaps only Zaros and Seren are truly gods.
If a God must be someone who protects the people and thinks only of the people and not of themselves, then there ARE no gods.

There are many other examples and criteria you could use I'm sure, but you get my point, yes?
A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

11-Jul-2016 04:48:20

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

Posts: 7,437Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
OP, I'd advise looking into things like the Greek, Nordic, and Eqyptian pantheons.

In them:

Mortals become gods, gods die or are killed, and none are omniscient (except Odin, kind of).

And as others have pointed out, the elder gods are not omniscient.

11-Jul-2016 04:58:06 - Last edited on 11-Jul-2016 04:58:31 by Hguoh

Maiden China

Maiden China

Posts: 5,142Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
If you call something a toothbrush, and most other people also do... that thing is a toothbrush, whether it actually brushes teeth or not. It could be a spatula and it'd still be a toothbrush, until people decide to start calling it a spatula

the gods of gielinor are the same way. The people of gielinor call them gods, so okay, why not also call them gods? I mean, yes, you know-think that they're spatulas, but until you convince most people in the world of that, they're going to keep being called gods
Carn

12-Jul-2016 00:20:12

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