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Your antithesis god?

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ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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@ Aviansie


Most of your criticisms apply to other gods as well.

For one, Zamorak did not intend for the chaos dwarves to become what they are, only to grant them power. You can blame him for acting ignorantly in a desperate situation, but Seren did the same thing to the elves. Although in that case, she then tortured them into submission and left many to fates worse than the chaos dwarves. And so long as we're on the topic of the consequences of ignorance, Armadyl was basically manipulated into joining a war that had nothing to do with him, driving his own people to the brink of extinction in the process.

Of course Zamorak wants more power, he was raised in a society run by the most powerful individuals. The same can't be said of most of the other major gods, and yet you'd still be hard-pressed to find one who doesn't want more power than they already have. Armadyl is the exception, though that's more of a flaw than anything, as he's expressed his willingness to resort to violence when he deems it necessary, making the act of foregoing power counter-productive and only serves to put his people at even further risk. I am curious, though, when has Zamorak killed his friends/allies in order to keep them in line? If you're referring to the robes of subjugation, those betraying him clearly weren't his friends. After all, Zamorak wants others to be free to succeed as well. As stated by Mod Osborne, his philosophy is one of the few to benefit the follower more than the god.

Continued...
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 00:13:09 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 00:14:27 by ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Now, about the God Wars. Zamorak opened the vacuum that made them possible, and he deserves his share of the blame for the ensuing violence, but don't omit fault to the other gods. Zaros was no friend of theirs, his defeat was certainly in their best interests. It wasn't long before they jumped at the opportunities presented by his absence. Zamorak wasn't even on Gielinor for the first nineteen years of the conflict. And it takes more than one faction for a war to last four-thousand years.

You can argue that Zamorak himself is a tyrant, thereĺs a case to be made there, but itĺs simply not true to claim that the tyranny of the other gods is non-existent. Zaros had twelve legions of demons magically bound to his will, and his Empire was in the process of conquering the Menaphites prior to Tumekenĺs sacrifice. Saradomin arrived on Naragun uninvited, conquered their land, and ended up fighting in a God War that drove the naragi to extinction. He also mutilated Garlandia and left her for dead because she publically embarrassed him. Bandos literally conquered his entire home world, allowed everyone on it to die for his own personal gain, and then did the same thing all over again on YuĺBiusk, only this time out of frustration and boredom. Seren, as previously mentioned, tortured her own followers into submission and left an entire clan to a fate worse than death. In what way is this not tyranny?

Continued...
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 00:13:28 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 00:14:42 by ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Furthermore, you speak of Zamorakĺs actions in Forinthry as if they were a bad thing, to which I could not disagree more. That was the most selfless thing that someone in that position could have done, both in intent and result. As was evident in the cutscene in DAT, Zamorak thought that all of the gods present, himself included, would be killed by the blast. He was effectively committing suicide in order to prevent the tyranny of the other gods from taking hold. The blast killed a large number of people, yes, but the vast majority were his enemies. It also resulted in the awakening of Guthix and subsequent establishment of the Edicts. The alternative was to allow for the God Wars to continue on for an unknown number of centuries as Bandos and Saradomin fought over the stone. There are plenty of things to fault Zamorak for, but Forinthry is not one of them.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 00:13:35 - Last edited on 01-Nov-2016 00:14:51 by ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Hazeel said:
@Chaos Lupus

Now to be fair, I think they recently confirmed in a Q&A that Zamorak did intend to enslave the Dwarves. I guess power was his way of rewarding them for it. *shrug* Can't say I fully support it, but then again I have a servant in my PoH that I brainwashed because I was too cheap to pay my former butler. I also buy slaves from ports and send them to make me money or die on a regular basis. And the only reason I haven't done it on a larger scale is because I lack the capacity to store all of those slaves. ...So maybe it's not my place to judge.


I read the opposite from a mod quote, which aligns with what Zamorak says in-game (not that he wouldn't lie if it was beneficial for him). I'll try to find it.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 00:59:48

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Cthris said:
Hazeel said:


Not defending Zamorak BTW...but this is par for the course at this point.


Only asking this cause I just thought it was such a weird statement lol.... but if you aren't defending Zamorak then what exactly is the point of your response to Aviansie lol?:P

ChaosáLupus said:
@ Aviansie
I am curious, though, when has Zamorak killed his friends/allies in order to keep them in line?

Wouldn't Char be an example of this? Was she not technically his ally (she thought he was an ally, he made no official act of war before this time etc.) when he turned on her in order to set an example for his other followers/keep them in line?


Criticizing other gods for similar actions is not the same as defending Zamorak. If anything, it's also being critical of Zamorak.

Char was clearly not a friend, and she never would have sided with Zamorak against Zaros. Zamorak knew this, and opted to get the better of her when the opportunity presented itself. Not yet knowing you have an enemy is not the same as having an ally.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 01:18:11

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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AnáAviansie said:
To clarify:

I should have said that some of these so-called tyrannies don't really exist. I wouldn't really consider Zaros's old empire a tyranny, even if it wasn't exactly a great place to live. I wouldn't consider Saradomin a tyrant, either. Bandos, yeah, okay, that one is true.

Saradomin didn't destroy a planet or a continent. He destroyed a city. Was that screwed up? Hell yes, it was. But there are two key points being missed here: Saradomin regretted his actions and tried to defend the Naragi from the other attackers. Zamorak didn't regret anything and wasn't trying to defend anything.

By the way, sorry if I came off as overly hostile, Lupus. I've just been having a really rough day today. :| At least I didn't blow up anyone or anything in a fit of rage, right? :P


I honestly didn't notice anything hostile.

Anyway, Saradomin being sorry does nothing to repair the damage of his actions. Though I'd also add that we don't know whether or not Zamorak is regretful, as we've never asked him about it, only witnessed the flashback (for the record, I'd rather he didn't regret it, from a story perspective). A tyrant is a cruel and oppressive leader. Like I said, you can certainly make a solid argument for Zamorak being a tyrant, but I think there's more than enough evidence to do the same for many of the other major gods.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 01:26:19

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Here it is.

Q: Zamorak says he is "deeply remorseful" about what happened to the Chaos Dwarves. What was his intent with the power he gave them, if it all went according to plan? Was it simply an offer of power to those willing to fight for his cause, or something else?

Mod Ollie: "in return for their unwavering devotion I gave them power beyond any they had known before" - He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause, but by cursing them he caused them to eventually become corrupted, mindless beings which was clearly not a consequence he originally intended.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 13:09:13

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Hazeel said:
When the Naragi tried to use Tuska to save them? Sure, that could be called a God War. But the centuries before that with Saradom vs the Naragi? Mmmm...I'm don't think "God War" would be right. I'm not even sure if "war" is appropiate. The word I'm looking for leans closer to "genocide" or "massacre".


Massacre, sure, but I don't think that genocide fits with what Saradomin did on Naragun. Some of the naragi did eventually join his side, after all. Not that they had much choice, but Saradomin was clearly set on conquest, rather than wiping out the race.

Although now that I say it, that might actually put him in an even worse light. If some of the naragi joined him, then why aren't there, to our knowledge, any remaining in the universe? Unless something akin to the ilujanka's infertility issue plagued them, or they were killed off by another threat later on, it would seem that Saradomin abandoned them after his defeat at the hands (or tusks, rather) of Tuska. With that, the question also arises of whether or not he also abandoned his other followers on Naragun. Of course, having just recently been defeated, it's also possible that he didn't have the power to transport everyone to another plane. After all, the lore regarding the difficulty of teleportation to other worlds is rather inconsistent.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 13:19:09

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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AncientáDrew said:
Though to speak of gods, I have to say I disagree most with Zamorak so far due to my belief that chaos achieves nothing without an order of some kind, but I wouldn't consider him a devil any more since he saved someone who went through child abuse, and he's shown to have somewhat decent intentions. Even his power hungry attitude is just a product of his culture, much like Saradomin inheriting some of his views from Teragardian culture.

I'm more interested in killing Sliske with fire, even though he's not a god.

And of course I don't know what Xau-Tak wants, or if it even thinks of wanting, but it seems to be a soul eating threat that needs to be destroyed asap.


I'd argue that Zamorak would agree with you there. He advocates for the strength to overcome chaos and hardship, not anarchy. In the book of the gods, when he demonstrates his philosophy to Moia, he allows the people of the village to rebuild and establish a stronger form of order than they had before. If Zamorak opposed order in all its forms, he wouldn't be capable of maintaining any semblance of organization within his own faction.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 13:52:53

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Cthris said:
LordáValzin said:
ChaosáLupus said:
Here it is.

Q: Zamorak says he is "deeply remorseful" about what happened to the Chaos Dwarves. What was his intent with the power he gave them, if it all went according to plan? Was it simply an offer of power to those willing to fight for his cause, or something else?

Mod Ollie: "in return for their unwavering devotion I gave them power beyond any they had known before" - He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude. I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause, but by cursing them he caused them to eventually become corrupted, mindless beings which was clearly not a consequence he originally intended.


To me, this reads as quite similar to what happened with Seren and her elves, where they both tried to give their followers something and a side effect of unwilling loyalty was created. Of course, they were for very different reasons and purposes.


But how does your interpretation of the text account for this quote? "He didn't just give them power, he also forced them into servitude."
Does the quote not imply that unwilling loyalty was the purpose and that they were not his followers?


Zamorak did force the chaos dwarves into servitude, that doesn't mean that was his intent. Like Ollie said, he meant to create a powerful, loyal force, not mindless zombies. Intent/=/results.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 15:59:45

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Hazeel said:
Yeeeaaahhh....that's questionable. I mean, how did he expect them to be forced into loyalty without being mindless servants? You can't have one without the other.



Cthris said:
ChaosáLupus said:

Zamorak did force the chaos dwarves into servitude, that doesn't mean that was his intent. Like Ollie said, he meant to create a powerful, loyal force, not mindless zombies. Intent/=/results.


"I expect that his intentions were simply to create a powerful force that would be loyal to his cause"

Seems like it was his intention to force loyalty no?


Nothing in the quote says that he intended to force them to serve him. He makes a pretty clear distinction between what Zamorak intended and what the result was.

Besides, you can't force loyalty, that's sort of vital to the entire concept. If Ollie meant that Zamorak intended to enslave them, why not just say that?
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 16:37:32

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Hazeel said:
ChaosáLupus said:
Besides, you can't force loyalty,


Funny, I recall saying that to Zaros in the second age....he just laughed and told me to conquer some more villages.


That'd be unintentional brainwashing. :P
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 17:41:47

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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@ Socrateus

1.) Now you're just twisting words. By your logic, anything anyone intentionally does ever is forcing something. There's clearly a difference between "forcing" power into existence and forcing someone into slavery.

2.) Yes, I have. And as we've seen, it's not actually loyalty, it's a temporary form of brainwashing. Hence the whole rebellion thing.

3.) Force into servitude=enslave.

That's not loyalty, that's fear of punishment.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 17:49:06

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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AncientáDrew said:
^ About the memoriam crystals for Zaros, he said himself that he was born with an aura ability that causes anyone near him to become loyal to him. This effect only happens in a certain perimeter, however, and it dissipates with time. He even says himself,
"I find the idea of coercing a mind to be...distasteful."


He practically left the Empire alone after Tumeken blew himself up, and noted that his followers were loyal and spread his ideals of their own accord afterwards. They could have left on their own and did something different, like the Zamorakians in the Empire did, but there were genuinely loyal followers around who hadn't been affected by this aura for ages. He forced a lot due to the ability, but there were quite a few who wanted to support Zaros anyway.


Of course. It's not as if Zaros rounded everyone up every few days and made them bask in his presence.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 17:50:55

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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@ Socrateus

1.) I don't see how twisting words serves the conversation.

There's a huge difference between providing incentive for loyalty and brainwashing. Those two things aren't even remotely similar.

No one is arguing that Zamorak forced the dwarves into servitude, as he very clearly did. The question is whether or not that was his intent. Judging from the quote, it wasn't, as Ollie makes a very clear distinction between intent and results. The results were that the chaos dwarves gained power and were forced into servitude. Zamorak's intent, on the other hand, at least as pertains to this particular quote, was to create a powerful force loyal to his cause.

No one said anything about unwavering loyalty. Most people don't mean the most absolute form of something in their daily language.

2.) Still you.

So the individual in question clearly doesn't actually hold that position, it's one they've been forced against their will to take.

3.) Where do you live? We're not completely subject to the government, at least not where I'm from, hence why there are restrictions to what it's allowed to do.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 19:01:06

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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KingáShoshon said:
Excluding whatever the Godless are going to have as a leader, probably Armadyl. You can't be a "god" and a wimp. Its just recipe for disaster.


A stupid god is potentially just as dangerous as a malevolent one.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 21:21:29

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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AncientáDrew said:
KingáShoshon said:
Excluding whatever the Godless are going to have as a leader, probably Armadyl. You can't be a "god" and a wimp. Its just recipe for disaster.
Oh, I wouldn't call him a wimp. He may have had a history for pacifism, but he had the balls to stand up to and kill Bandos, and has stated that he will kill if he feels the need to. And he was there when Tuska came hurtling towards us. I would say he's got some bottle considering he's one of the more peaceable gods, and his phoenix mantle is likely to be earned.


Did he, though? He just sat there and had a staring contest with Bandos while his followers died in his name. The gods might have done more than we got to see on-screen in that battle, but if that was the intent, there's nothing to confirm it in-game.

As for Tuska, I don't recall seeing Armadyl anywhere in the vicinity. He and the other gods just sent their followers to handle the problem for them. Again.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 21:23:57

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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AncientáDrew said:
ChaosáLupus said:
AncientáDrew said:
KingáShoshon said:
Excluding whatever the Godless are going to have as a leader, probably Armadyl. You can't be a "god" and a wimp. Its just recipe for disaster.
Oh, I wouldn't call him a wimp. He may have had a history for pacifism, but he had the balls to stand up to and kill Bandos, and has stated that he will kill if he feels the need to. And he was there when Tuska came hurtling towards us. I would say he's got some bottle considering he's one of the more peaceable gods, and his phoenix mantle is likely to be earned.


Did he, though? He just sat there and had a staring contest with Bandos while his followers died in his name. The gods might have done more than we got to see on-screen in that battle, but if that was the intent, there's nothing to confirm it in-game.

As for Tuska, I don't recall seeing Armadyl anywhere in the vicinity. He and the other gods just sent their followers to handle the problem for them. Again.
I'm pretty sure he was. I mean, we never saw Vorago until he did the job on Tuska, and he stated himself he's not a Godless. I'm pretty certain that if Armadyl won it he would have come running and shot her between the eyes.


It would have been Zamorak, Saradomin, or Armadyl that killed Tuska (personally, I was hoping for Saradomin) had their faction won, but I mean from an in-game perspective. There was nothing physically stopping them from getting the jump on her before Vorago got involved, the determining factor was just a gameplay mechanic. As far as the canon story goes, the gods did nothing, to our knowledge, to stop Tuska.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

01-Nov-2016 21:46:09

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Raxxess said:
Well I despise Zaros on the level that he has gotten tons of quest and lore content and it wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be. Having said that though ideologically I don't see him as bad as the others.

Zamorak is probably the god I see as a villain. I could go on about his flaws or his actions being the opposite of his philosophy. But I really am not a fan of him just because he has become kind of soft in his more recent appearances and he is in the same boat in Zaros in that we have seem him a lot and learned about him and I just still don't like him.
If I don't like something constantly presenting it to me again is not going to make me like it more and that is the effect Zaros and Zamorak have on me.

His followers are equally ridiculous. Black Knights: "We aren't the bad guys white knights are corrupt!" but then their castle has slaves, skeletons, and all the sadistic stuff you associate with being edgy.


The other flip side theory I could propose is that Saradomin is my antithesis. I'd gladly throw away my World Guardian duties if it benefits him and that probably makes him at least in my play through that is pretty dangerous to the rest of gielinor


Ironically, it's not that black and white.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

02-Nov-2016 01:56:43

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Kittyphantom said:
The gods were behind the whole spear thing in the Tuska event, weren't they?


They were faction-aligned, but I don't recall anything saying that it physically prevented any other faction's god from attacking Yuska once her anima shield was weakened. If the spears were specifically attuned to allow for only that faction's god (or in the Godless' case, Vorago) to harm her, the gods basically put a dick measuring contest before the safety of the entirety of Gielinor.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

02-Nov-2016 13:25:12

ChaosáLupus

ChaosáLupus

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Hguoh said:
ChaosáLupus said:
@ Hguoh

Being a citizen living under a government, not Zaros' aura.


Ah.

Well that isn't entirely true either.

If it were, torture/the threat of torture would be much more effective at obtaining accurate information, which it empirically is not.

There's also the benefits to living under such a system (a generally more secure and larger marketplace, greater protection from outside forces, etc...) that could lead one to be loyal to a governmental system for reasons other than simply fearing punishment by the governing body.


Most people being tortured aren't there because they ran a stop light.

Of course, but that's not my point. Fear and loyalty are not the same thing. You can both fear something and be loyal to it, but you're not loyal because you fear it. The mages who attempted to overthrow Zamorak with the robes of subjugation weren't loyal, they just knew what would happen if they openly betrayed him without any way of doing so successfully.
The strength of the pack is the wolf and the strength of the wolf is the pack.

02-Nov-2016 15:23:50

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