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Issue: No major changes

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Padomenes
Apr Member 2015

Padomenes

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An ongoing issue on the release of lore is that no major changes occur as implied, talked about or promised. A first off example is no new 'god wars' has occurred in the Sixth Age despite the possibility hyping up. Even if several battles they were nothing compared to the third age and what they had. There is not even a hint of a 'god wars' happening on Gielinor.

Second example is the Myreque quest, its hyped up or made to seem like there will be a major change but nothing at all occurs and everything remains static/the same. The vyres were not allowed to cross the salve and engage the troops, nor was there any risk of Vanescula invading into Misthalin and taking over. Also no 'epic Morytania campaign'.

Thirdly is the citadel, it was not retaken by Armadyl after Sliske was slain.

Another thing: V, Bandos and Tuska were immediately killed off upon introduction to prevent the chances of major change happening on Gielinor or create more quest content. When Tuska is winning it was rigged so that they would lose to ensure this in WE3.

Everything remains almost exactly the same, nothing change on Gielinor. No major wars or battles, not even between non-gods seriously?
Saradominist
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INFP(Possibly also ENFP)
, Democratic Socialist irl

28-Aug-2017 10:38:36 - Last edited on 28-Aug-2017 10:45:13 by Padomenes

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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For as much as the possibility of a new God Wars was hyped up, there was never any possibility that it would be as the first God Wars did.

Millennia passed since the first God Wars ended. And during that time, numerous large-scale permanent settlements were established whereas only a couple of such cities were able to exist prior to or during the first God Wars. Territories were drawn up, and the leadership once held by gods was taken up and passed on by mortal hands. Overall, things quieted down such that even the most war-like civilizations eventually found themselves bound primarily to border skirmishes. In most cases, worship of the gods changed from obedience to an individual being into an attempt to live up to certain perceived ideals.

So when the gods finally returned, they found a world in which civilizations had become firmly rooted and a significant portion of the populations worshiping them wouldn't immediately leap to their every command any more. Sure Saradominists might not like Zamorakians and neither are fond of Zarosians, but these groups have sequestered themselves from one another to the point that most members of most groups are fine to live and let live provided the others don't start anything big (individual actors and groups are dealt with as they arise).

Gone are the days when the gods can spur their followers into action by claiming that a failure to do so will result in their destruction. It is little coincidence that the factions most interested in reigniting such war have found themselves ever diminished and domesticized as neighboring factions gradually found homeostasis with one another in the fact that they could never hope to eradicate without their gods.

The seed of stable civilization has sprouted and its roots run deep. The gods have a lot of work ahead of them if they wish to uproot it and start their wars again in full force.

28-Aug-2017 13:19:15

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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It's actually quite a similar situation to the end of the Myreque series. From the beginning, we saw that Varrock was never really interested in starting a war with Morytania. It was considered a travesty that the humans of Morytania lived in such conditions, but it was deemed too costly a venture (both in money and in lives) to be worthwhile.

By and large, this feeling was reciprocated by the Vampires of Morytania. They had no interest in spreading their territory because they thought there to be no way to cross the Salve and lacked the food to feed such a campaign. Their food source was sickly and unsatisfying, but they didn't really have another option until we provided them one. They liked their civilization and were content to have it remain as it was (as shown by their reaction to Lord Drakan's decree to return home and by some Vyres' willingness to still attack humans despite Vanescula's decree.

With the addition of the vampirism cure, the problem of an expanding population and dwindling food source was solved. Converted humans could be returned to normal if they do chose (increasing food supply and reducing demand), while natural vampires could use the cure to reduce their need for blood (further decreasing the demand on their food source). The driving force behind the war gone, the war effort fell apart. Could it have done with at least one battle? Sure, but it never quite reached that point.

28-Aug-2017 13:36:18

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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As for the latter two, the citadel is set to be retaken by Armadyl and is currently being worked on as a Jmod's pet project.

God deaths are an odd bunch. It sucks that Bandos didn't get to play a bigger role in 6th age story, but it is also true that he, more than any other god) had the greatest direct impact on 5th age story. However poorly handled you find his death, you have to admit that having a God Wars with no god deaths from the fighting would have been both less believable and have even less stakes than the one we are presented with now.

On the point of Tuska, I'd like to point out that we'd likely see accusations of the event being rigged the other way had Jagex not intervened (they were already popping up when it became infinitely clear that Jagex had drastically overestimated player participation in the event and Tuska's adaptivity was doing nothing to adjust for it. That being said, Jagex clearly pushed the pendulum too far in the other direction. It's also worth acknowledging that, from what Jmods have told us, the outcome wouldn't have been too 'world changing' even if she had won (she'd be alive, somewhat intelligent, and would likely just be standing where she is currently crashed), which makes sense since we know that Raids planned on using the world window on her back regardless.

As for V, it again sucks that a character gets killed off early. Acknowledging that, the point of his death was to present the Dragonkin as a credible threat to the gods, which, (from the events of MPD) was evidently not the case beforehand.

28-Aug-2017 14:09:37

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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The main issue I have with current God Deaths is that it has so far always either a newly introduced character or Bandos (a largely disliked character established as a villain who faced off with a largely blank slate who has only ever been described up to that point as generically good if naive). That being said, I feel like the backlash from killing more established characters and especially ones that are in the middle of their story would be even worse than their current choices.

28-Aug-2017 14:10:26

Lord Pyro I
Nov Member 2018

Lord Pyro I

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In many ways I feel the mistake Jagex made was to not bring the 5th age quest series that were unfinished into the 6th age.

Not only would that create a far more game changing Myreque series but more substantially brings in something along the lines of six extra gods that haven't been able to appear in the 6th age content. This would make available several more gods than we actually know of (without meeting them admittedly) for the risk of more impactful deaths. It also opened up the possibly of pantheon intrigue as the more powerful gods attempt to secure the support of the lesser gods.

Partly there is also an issue of Jagex struggling to accommodate the widening demographic of its player base. While its older players often grow to look for something more complex and potentially game changing many of the gods (Brassica, Marimbo, Crondis) are given over to being comedic characters that detracted from the more well written characters some of us were looking for.
"The greatest endeavors are achieved because of their selfless intent"
#WarIsComing

28-Aug-2017 15:42:14

Padomenes
Apr Member 2015

Padomenes

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Hguoh said:
The seed of stable civilization has sprouted and its roots run deep. The gods have a lot of work ahead of them if they wish to uproot it and start their wars again in full force.
But civilization during the 2nd age was even more sophisticated and 'stable'? You had the light creatures and their colonies along with so many more, as well as the empire.

The god wars were often compared to the Gielinorian version of a 'nuclear conflict' in devastation where no cities or settlements lasted long and the death toll on each side in total were hundreds of millions. It went from a civilised and more technically sophisticated society with an empire maintaining world hegemony/order, before exploding into that stage. The wyrms that were used made it even deadlier and could take our entire cities or armies in minutes. While the 4th age was basically the 'post apocalyptic' age as we know it. if you looked in the Forinthry dungeon where the revenants were you would find heaps more technologically sophisticated architectures, I provided pictures in another thread called the 'undiscussed lore' one.

You can read the other thread on third age or god wars lore/facts in lore discussion for details if you wish:

God Wars Lore Thread
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28-Aug-2017 15:56:42 - Last edited on 28-Aug-2017 16:06:45 by Padomenes

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Padomenes said:
But civilization during the 2nd age was even more sophisticated and 'stable'? You had the light creatures and their colonies along with so many more, as well as the empire.


Not entirely accurate. During the 2nd age, most of civilization was more stable than it was in the 3rd age, but not more so than in the 6th age. For example, the Zarosian Empire appeared very stable and rooted, but we know that it was almost constantly forcibly expanding it's boundaries, incorporating malcontents into its ranks and forcing opposing states nearby states to take a far more defensive stance in affairs lest the empire take advantage of their forces being utilized elsewhere.

The forceful expansion of the empire and attempts to make the natives of acquired lands integrate inevitably lead to resentment within the ranks of the empire. This combined with the natural corruption that takes place in any institution without adequate oversight built the forces for rebellion. Of course, this is all stuff we already know.

Zamorak builds his rebellion on this resentment, a miraculous chain of events grant him the tool(s) to actually pull it off, and the Empire turns to civil war. The efficacy of it's stabilizing force gone, other neighboring states no longer need be as cautious in their actions. But that doesn't appear to have been the primary instigator for all out war. Remember what I said:

Hguoh said:
Sure Saradominists might not like Zamorakians and neither are fond of Zarosians, but these groups have sequestered themselves from one another to the point that most members of most groups are fine to live and let live provided the others don't start anything big (individual actors and groups are dealt with as they arise).

28-Aug-2017 18:33:06 - Last edited on 28-Aug-2017 18:34:30 by Hguoh

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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From the VIrtus Book (Torva's section recounting the attack on Flamtaer):

This was to be a pre-emptive strike against aggressors from the Hallowed land but our presence here will be seen as an act of invasion. I fear we face a counterattack larger and better organised in future than the battle we expected here.

In Saradominist eyes, this was an unprecedented attack on their people and a declaration of war. This would have instigated the large and organized counterattack on the Zarosian Empire which would have fallen into infighting. Their army divided and their god unable banished, the Saradominist forces would have stormed over and conquered Zarosian lands with 'relative' ease.

Other states seeing this would take their opportunity to take revenge for injustices committed against them by the empire. Eventually, this would have led to some of these forces clashing with each other over the conquered territories as well, with each claiming a right to it. Then Zamorak returns to further escalate things as he seeks to reclaim the Empire's territory for himself and everything hits the fan.

The only other known stable settlements during this time were Hallowvale and Prifddinas. The former, as we know, was toppled and taken by Drakan with the aid of Zamorakian forces (something that can be attributed both to the expansionist mindset of the empire, and could be seen as retribution against the Saradominists who had invaded prior to the time that the campaign had begun). Priff, on the other hand, firmly stayed out of the God Wars, with only few citizens deciding to go and fight only to later fall to infighting due to the ambitions of two clans to eclipse all others.

28-Aug-2017 18:52:09

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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In comparison, modern states are far more stable. The closest we see to an attempt to expand is Trollheim's attempts to take/destroy Burthorpe/Taverly which haven't been particularly successful and Vanescula's aborted invasion of Misthalin. I suppose you could have jump started a God Wars that way, with Bandos attempting to conquer Asgarnia leading to retaliation from Saradominists (and inevitably Armadylians), only to have Zamorak take swoop in while their armies are elsewhere and take the kingdom with Kinshra and Zamorakian mages.

Perhaps that's what Bandos intended with the start of WE2 prior to Armadyl showing up. Make a big weapon, blast a big chunk out of Falador, and get the ball rolling.

Perhaps that's why Saradomin was not there to protect his city (and eventually Armadyl). By letting some die first, he'd instill a sense of urgency in his remaining followers, making them realize that they wouldn't be left alone anymore if they let the forces of the other be. Humans are the most prolific sapient life on Gielinor and most follow him, so its not like he can't afford to lose some. That's certainly in line with this particular quote of his:

Some must die so all can live. Sacrifices must be made for the greater good.

:as well as his demonstration with Garlandia. Heck, he could even pass of agency for the event onto Bandos, which reflects how the Temple Knights take care of less tasteful tasks quietly and with less tasteful methods (ex: the blood ritual used to bless the Salve which was then covered up).

On the other hand, Armadyl, being the naive do-gooder he is, immediately jumped in and risked his life to prevent Bandos from utilizing his weapon (hypocritically creating the same threat he sought to prevent), giving Bandos a new target to use his weapon on, still start a war, and gain some points toward receiving the SoJ (another way to start war), while Zamorak sat back waiting for the resulting chaos to give a time to strike for his own ends.

28-Aug-2017 19:08:38 - Last edited on 28-Aug-2017 19:14:49 by Hguoh

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