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Discussion of Magic V2

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Ferocire

Ferocire

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Magic has no PvP variety at all. This is a discussion to address this problem.

This thread is very detailed, so for those who just want to glance through it-important parts are underlined.


THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MAGIC, IT IS ABOUT THE LACK OF VARIETY. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT REVAMPING MAGIC, IT IS REGARDING THE LACK OF WEAPON AND ARMOR CHOICES.


So please, if you want to talk about mage's effectiveness or viability..take it to another thread.


The Problems


Magic currently works via a combination of accuracy, damage consistency and combat utility rather than KO potential. This means that to a mage, dps is everything. TB is also currently crucial to getting kills outside of hybriding. This means that only the SoTD is viable. Everything else has insufficient dps and nothing else enables standard magicks to have the same damage output as ancients. This presents a problem for mage weapons, but I'll address that later. h

The problem with armor is that farcasting is counter productive in lower levels of the wilderness making it to where we have to fight at melee distance. This severely limits the effectiveness of most mage gear making it to where only Ahrim's is viable.

Because of these things, magic is extremely item dependent as SoT* and Ahrim's are necessities for 1v1 PvP. There are no other options. Refer to the next section for proof of this.

UPDATE


Sara strike is still not quite up to par with Z flames due to TSoTD's higher accuracy compared to SoL, but it is viable enough to use now. A little bit of progress has finally been made for mage's variety.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:54:54 - Last edited on 09-Feb-2018 17:04:41 by Ferocire

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The Math


This section is intended to help demonstrate just how bad our options are.

Reminder: Farcasting is not a practical option as it will simply make opponents turn on overheads and try to escape. In order to actually get kills in lower lvls of the wilderness, a mage has to fight at melee distance.The dps and defenses has to be sufficiently high in order to be viable.

For these calculations, I will be assuming a maxed mage vs a maxed piety pker. I will be assuming that the meleer is in d hide and has a slash attack bonus of +133.

Meleer's mage def roll: 107 x ( 98 + 64)= ~ 17,334
Meleer's slash Atk Roll: 118 x (133 +64)=23,246


DFS Tank Gear
T Helm
SoTD
Ahrim top+skirt
Occult
Rune gloves
D boots
DFS
Zammy cape

Stats: ~+83 mage, +225 slash def

Atk roll: 121 x (83 + 64)=17,787
Def roll: 144 x ( 225 +64)=41,616

Atk>Def:
1- ( 17,336/35,576)=
51% hit chance x (37 x.5)/3=3.14


Def>Attk
23,246/83,236=
27% hit chance x (45 x.5)/2.4=2.53



~24% in mages favor.


SoT* replaced with Kodai

The dps advantage would be the same. But this is with ancients. TB is crucial for mages getting kills and fire surge is the best standard spell wand can cast. Shields are also critical as melee has way too high KO potential to be without one. So tome of fire isn't even relevant, not even with fire surge, as the lower defenses helps the opponent more than the higher damage helps the mage. Remember, mage doesn't have KO and venge to compensate for low def as rangers do with their void.

Accounting for this:

Mage dps is lowered to ~2.7
Meleer's remains the same.

A tiny 6% advantage which the meleer could easily make up for with their KO potential.

A mage using a SoTd or any other weapon is the difference between getting a kill and getting destroyed. The differences in viability is extreme.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:55:12 - Last edited on 18-May-2018 15:42:36 by Ferocire

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Armor


Well, we finally have a GWD equivalent-Ancestral. I am not sure if it'd be viable for PvP purposes, but the stats seem reasonable enough and it looks good for PvM.

It would be nice to have a more defense focused set, but for awhile, I consider ancestral enough.

As such, instead of getting more armor, perhaps we could get more shields as mentioned by XZairX. Currently the only mage shields are malediction ward, wyvern and arcane, all of which are expensive for PvP purposes.

Malediction-arcane provides the combat stat ranges of +12-20 mage attack with +50-80 melee defenses. This provides plenty of room for lower level alternatives.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:55:21 - Last edited on 31-Dec-2017 18:08:06 by Ferocire

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Weapons



As mentioned earlier, the main problem with mage weapons is that they would have to be implemented in a way that makes them a viable alternative to Z flames which means they either need access to something like Teleblock, high enough dps to outdamage heal rates (which would need some major balance checks to prevent it from being OP), or some degree of KO potential.

The criteria that should be meet with a new mage wep is as follows:

1.Has to be viable to get kills
2. Should be balanced with hybriding
3. KO potential-if any, should be balanced in line with mage's accuracy, damage consistency and utility
4.Doesn't necessary need spec, but a spec could perhaps give a otherwise ordinary mage weapon a viable use.
5.Dps should be comparable to SoT*-no higher unless tradeoffs are present. Should be less depending on the specific advantages the weapon might have.



There are a few ways I can think of that would accomplish all of this:

A staff with a heavy damage boost, but very low accuracy. According to some quick calculations, something around +45% mage damage and +2-3 mage attack would be reasonable.

A staff with a built in spell which has lower damage then Sot*, but being a built in spell enables the use of venge combos. This would have significantly lower DpS than sot*, but the venge gives it a very controllable degree of minor KO potential.

A staff with average stats, but a decent spec. This wouldn't directly address the problem, but a good spec wep could compensate for the lack of dps of lesser weapons making them more viable.

Guthix equvalents to SoT* and SoL-perhaps the easiest (but boring) option.

A weapon with a passive effect that works only with elemental spells. (Within reason) With the release of the fire tome, possibilities like this has been made available. The loss of defense from using the tome keeps it balanced.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:55:36 - Last edited on 08-Feb-2018 20:35:30 by Ferocire

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Remember, this is a discussion regarding mage's lack of equipment variety and possible ways that new equipment could be viable yet balanced. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of magic

Melee and range have each gotten 2 weapons specifically designed for PvP. Magic is the only skill which has not gotten any PvP updates, leaving it as the only one left.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:55:44 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2018 01:14:43 by Ferocire

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Future Concerns


There has been a push for forced skulls in BH worlds lately and a BH rejuvenation is apparently planned for sometime next year. I have several issues with this:

Skulls are not even the issue, the lack of risk is.

Forced skulls would overall harm the PvP variety of the game. Items like Elder maul are not viable for skulled pkers as it doesn't have enough dps as a primary and it doesn't have enough KO potential to give up a ags or claws for. But if one is unskulled, it might would be viable as a mixup option as they could still have a good spec weapon and could still have a good primary weapon. But it doesn't just harm item variety, it kills off entire builds. Forced skulls would be very counter productive to increasing PvP activity.

Forced skulls would kill the magic skills viability in lower levels of the wilderness. Unlike melee or range, mages do not have the luxury of just grabbing some rune or d hide and a glory. Occult and Ahrim's are very much necessities as using everything else would be like a lvl 100+ meleer pking with a amulet of accuracy using iron armor.

The issue is the lack of risk. Why should a mage...who's already risking 1.5-3x more than most of their opponents, have to risk even more just to be viable while melee can have the most reliable KO potential in the game while risking 150k or less?

A minimal risk requirement is all that's needed. This would address the issue of people who try to unskull while having no higher risk and it would address the issue of skulled pkers risking nothing but crap like d hide chaps. But unlike forced skulls, variety would not be effected, mages' viability would not be destroyed, and builds would not be killed off.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 06:55:52 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2018 01:16:50 by Ferocire

Nex Addict

Nex Addict

Posts: 2,535Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I wouldn't consider Ahrims Pricey but I understand the point being made in terms of the risk.
I'm sure other armour can be created/designed to be at a much lower price compared to Ahrims.

I'm not a pvp fanatic so obviously me considering ahrims not pricey is biased.
I do agree Magic needs a bigger variety of equipment, obviously as you've stated keeping in balance.

To my surprise this is probably the first thread that isn't trying to buff magic and over-the-top things in it. Magic does have a good DPS rate, but I think magic personally could do with some updating further down the track anyways :P
Fast Effigy

02-Oct-2015 15:36:47

Ferocire

Ferocire

Posts: 10,976Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Well, some of the content mentioned in here actually are over the top tbh-but unlike the weapons of pre eoc like polypore, these would have significant tradeoffs in a attempt to better balance them. Now that doesn't mean they would be balanced though, which is one of the points of this thread-to go over all of the things that could be possible, potential problems with them, etc.
OSRS Mage Tank.


Believe magic to only be for support? Think again. It's just as valid of a Pking style as melee and range is.

02-Oct-2015 20:09:39 - Last edited on 02-Oct-2015 21:12:35 by Ferocire

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