Forums

Jagex Contradicting COC?Thread is locked

Quick find code: 278-279-764-66098026

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
This may sound ridiculous but.. I've created this thread because I've been forced to question whether Jagex is moderating RSOF with full awareness of the Code of Conduct (COC).

Recently, I've received this reply from a particular Jmod:



It's abundantly clear that politics and religion are permissible on RSOFs as per the COC (please look at point 5);



In the first image, the Jmod expresses the opposite. He's not even arguing based on context. He's attempting to state a rule. A rule that had been changed ages ago.

Furthermore, politics and religion is as controversial as it goes. Are you saying that controversial topics, are not allowed on RSOF? Where is the line drawn? Well let me tell you Jagex, that the line was removed by your colleague in the past - we are able to maintain controversial topics provided its done with dignity and respect.

This issue prompts questions like;

How long has Jagex been operating misguidedly?

How has this affected the quality of response to FMR appeals?

How has this affected the community?

How has Jagex's misguidance led to the community's misguidance? How has Jagex's misguidance influenced the forum moderating guidelines which affects the community?

Though one can argue that I'm being petty, I believe that there needs to be a reasonable level of transparency if Jagex intends to maintain a fair system and sound sense of procedural justice. Especially since the words of a Jagex staff member is taken as precedent by the community.

(To be clear, this isn't an argument about my appeal to Jagex. In fact, I don't disagree with the Jmod's response (except for the line about controversial topic). I wasn't entirely against with a particular Fmod's action, but felt that the moderated action could've been based on a different, more reasonable justification. I felt that communication is key. But that's not the subject at hand)
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 08:43:06 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 09:01:49 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Archaeox said:
Predictions:

1. This thread will attract the usual crew of haters and negative posters, who will jump at the chance to criticise Jagex and its employees.

2. You will be reminded that discussion of moderator (including JMod) actions is to be restricted to the Forum Moderation Review thread and this thread will be locked.


Hahah love you, Archaeox.

Sometimes it feels like we're trapped in limbo doesn't it?

In my defense though, I had attempted to approach the subject as respectfully as I can. Plus, Im not talking about my appeal here, but that Jagex has provided evidence that they're not entirely versed with the COC.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 08:51:08 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 09:21:56 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tuffty said:
You missed the point in point 5.

Though politics and religion threads are now permitted,
they will be moderated to a greater extent than other content
as it is easier to cause offence and upset in those subjects.


I can't answer for others but thats how I see it.


I hope you're not thinking that I created this thread without reading the entire sentence of point 5. Regulars in Off Topics are aware that controversial threads are heavily moderated. We don't even need to read the COC for that, we can just look at the trolls and fmod response.

No, you missed the point of this whole thread and what the Jmod said. He said:

"We
don't allow
topics that are controversial like race, religion, etc.."

If he had said "Though we allow topics like race and religion on these forums, the thread had gotten out of hand" it's a different story and of course I wouldn't have made this thread.

Secondly, he's alluding that controversial topics along those lines aren't permissable.

Tufty, you were here prior to the latest change of the rules. I'm not sure about you, but I remember there were arguments about controversial topics and how such topics had no place on the forums yadayaya. Mod Kalaya (and I'm assuming the rest of CM) made the decision which appeared more in favour of controversial topics (by allowing politics and religion). Which means it didnt matter if you thought you liked controversial topics or not, the decision had been made.

The fact that this particular Jmod is arguing with that old mindset shows he hasn't updated himself.

Edit:

Prior to this thread, I re-read his post at least about 4 times to see if it was possible that the Jmod was stating the rule in the context of my appeal. But it didn't seem to be the case. It appeared as though he was stating an outdated rule.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 10:40:25 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 10:44:31 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
FiFi LaFeles said:
The JMod is, indeed, stating the exact opposite of the CoC by saying that topics like race, religion etc are not allowed.

Religious topics most certainly are and there's at least one long-standing thread on Christianity. Idk about Race - can't remember seeing one apart from the crap troll thread currently in OT.

Maybe the JMod didn't get the Memo.

Fortunately the bulk of the moderating on the forums is done by the FMods, who are entirely aware of the contents of the CoC.


Yes, I do agree that at the very least our Fmods are versed in COC.

But in response to your earlier sentences - it does concern me, primarily because he's CM.

I don't remember if the Jmod came before or after the latest change of the rules. Either way, it's a worry. If it was after change of rules and the Jmod was inducted into community management, then you start to question if it was an effective induction, if the Jmod had revised the CoC, if there's been a communication breakdown etc. - because all of this affects the community. What's worse is that he operates FMR. If it was before change of rules, then Lord knows what's happening in CM at that point of time.

I hope I'm not the only one who sees why this is important. The FMR is the community's platform to voice out against actions that may have been unfair. So it *has* to be effective, sound, fair and with minimal lapses.

Otherwise people are just gonna take it to Reddit or Twitter, which will get a more adverse reaction from the community, straining the relationship between Jagex and the community.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 10:57:24 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 11:01:35 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tuffty said:
@Chief Elf

I get what you say about it. It's confusing.

I'll pass it along and see how it goes.

I read it to say it will be moderated more then any other thread but I seem to have misread it too. :P

I remember Mod Kalaya and the great changes She made. Miss her around here. But Mod Meadows is here now. He does a great job. ;)

Edited. Passed along as promissed. ;)


Yes thank you, I appreciate that! Sorry if it was confusing at the start, I get that it might've been alot of words.

I think misreading is fine, we all make mistakes. I guess this thread also offers a chance to correct mistakes and misunderstandings.

Yup, I remember Kalaya she was great! Meadows is great too, love him! Not sure about how he deals with the moderation side of things, but we appreciate his visibility here not only on Twitter, but the forums as well.

Edit:

I don't really expect much on the outcome of things.

So, we may or may not hear from Jagex which is fine. At the very most, I think Jagex may just dispense a message to us and then they'll have a chat with the relevant Jmod. But at least there is some awareness.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 11:06:10 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 11:12:22 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tophurious said:
what has our curator been up to lol we need him in this time of crisis


Sorry not sure who the curator is, hahah.

Edit:

Which reminds me, do we have a Head of CM atm? I forgot who replaced Mod Balance after he left or if he did get replaced. (I hope I get some leeway for going a little off topic, at least we're still talking about CM).
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 11:06:37 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 11:07:57 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tophurious said:


I guess that is my point in making that statement. If FMR fails, people are upset --> they go to Reddit, which is an already volatile place --> makes it even more volatile.

If people feel that Jagex cannot offer them a fair system, I feel that definitely impacts the relationship between community and Jagex.

Tophurious said:
Chief Elf said:
Tophurious said:
what has our curator been up to lol we need him in this time of crisis


Sorry not sure who the curator is, hahah.


our wonderful mod meadows of course.


Ahh okay! Team Meadows! <3
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 11:10:00 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 11:10:40 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thunder Jinx said:


Might be based on the individual.

I think what you're referring to is that they ask for some feedback (I guess on how to improve the game to tempt you to stay as a member). Some individuals may appear to be ranting more than they're providing feedback.

I can understand why quitting threads are not allowed. I remember back then when EOC came out alot of people threatened to quit Runescape and spammed the forums. So it actually became a guise for spam.

So all in all, it might look like spam.

As for that particular situation, it seemed atypical that a lock had been applied without justification, or maybe the Fmod was late in replying with a justification. Either way, I hope it got sorted out in FMR.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 11:19:40 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 11:21:09 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Louiellen said:
Tuffty said:
You missed the point in point 5.

Though politics and religion threads are now permitted,
they will be moderated to a greater extent than other content
as it is easier to cause offence and upset in those subjects.


I can't answer for others but thats how I see it.


Yes, Off Topic forum operate under this policy.

Chief Elf need not worry, as actually, only Mod Meadows is the sole Community Management Jmod who has the capability to "rewrite the code" so to speak.

Other Jmods only helps with watching-over FMR, so that the chance of backlog will be lessened.


So far haven't had any problems with Mod Meadows, and I'm certainly not calling for a change in the rules.

Just pointing out that the community has a reason to worry when a Jmod is discovered to be postulating something contrary to the rules.

But I understand that at the very most, a discussion between the particular Jmod and CM is the only thing they can do.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 12:49:20

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Louiellen said:
Tophurious said:
Louiellen said:
Chief Elf need not worry, as actually, only Mod Meadows is the sole Community Management Jmod who has the capability to "rewrite the code" so to speak.


perhaps this is why we should worry


Worry for something that the Jmod said to him, which does not actually rewrite anything?

That message Chief Elf received was an exclusive feedback for him, for his report in FMR and does not apply for the rest of the forumers. Remember, reporting in FMR is hidden, we don't know the contents and context of Chief Elf's report and he is restricted, he cannot reveal his own report for us to discuss publicly.

Chief Elf, it is better if you go back to FMR and seek clarification. Since it is really delicate to discuss the context of this case, without us knowing your own report there. You are the only person that knows the entire story, your report -- we only saw the public response of a Jmod.


I've already addressed it in FMR and awaits his response.

I'm quite certain that I don't need to discuss the context of my case (I'm not allowed to anyway). As I've mentioned, the Jmod stating that rule was not based on context. As I've said before, I re-read his post at least four times to determine if it was contextual before creating this thread.

The Jmod stated the rule because I firmly believe that he thought the rules were as such. This could've been potentially problematic for the community. As you can see from previous posts, people are concerned.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 12:56:11 - Last edited on 29-Apr-2019 13:00:27 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Louiellen said:
From my perspective, and I am confident the rest of the fmod team agrees with this. There is nothing changed with the way the Off Topic forum operates. A level of leniency has been granted before, and no one from the chain-of-command has made any changes yet. That's the only confirmation I can give you, Chief Elf.


Loueiellen, I'm not entirely sure if we're both on the same page here.

I'm not asking for changes to the rules, or questioning the rules. I'm not also not asking for less or more leniency. Perhaps, you're reading the Jmod's post as a whole and attempting to contextualise things.

I'm highlighting the fact the Jmod stated a certain rule which does not apply here to the forums, in fact it contradicts a current rule we have.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

29-Apr-2019 13:05:52

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thank you very much everyone for all your help and feedback.

Thank you also Mod Meadows, for fully considering my case! I appreciate it! Yayy, the curator!

Also, I apologise if I've made anyone upset.

Light Gaia said:


Then it wouldn't be a secret!

Louiellen said:


Just to clarify once again that I'm well aware there had been no rule change to Off Topic since Mod Kalaya's update on the rules. Mod Kalaya had allowed politics and religion to be discussed.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

30-Apr-2019 18:18:23 - Last edited on 30-Apr-2019 18:23:00 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Louiellen said:

We (fmods) too looked for Mod Meadows, as we have not received any memo about any change of procedures for Off Topic section.


Oh I see, I might've misunderstood. I thought you assumed that I had observed changes to the rules but you meant that you and your team had to verify if there were current changes to the Off Topic rules which could've explained why the Jmod responded like that.

Yeah and even before I created this thread I had to reread the rules again in case I wasn't going crazy.

I had wondered if you locked the thread because it wasn't exactly clear where to tread from there. I assumed you were deliberating on how to participate on the thread from the position of an Fmod.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

30-Apr-2019 18:31:55 - Last edited on 30-Apr-2019 18:36:19 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
NexOrigin said:
Shame that those in charge of the rules don't know the rules...

But how could they? How can any of us know what the rules actually are?


In this particular case, the rule is quite apparent - politics and religion are permissible. All of us are expected to know the rules, including the T&C. The rules aren't that long.

In real life however, you cannot plead ignorance if you commit any crime or tort.

NexOrigin said:

The rules are contradictory... the TOC says one thing... the RuneScape Rules say something else... the COC again says something different... the Forum Offence thread again says something different...


Could you please identify which rules are contradictory.

NexOrigin said:

When questioned on which rules take precedence in the forums, we get told that the issue will be escalated, and someone will come to clarify it. However, that never actually happens.

We get answers like this:


Haha, I just saw your thread, Nex. I'll read it later *eek so excited*.

Anyway, I would've responded a little differently than Poerkie.

This is what I believe the Jagex company should've done and I'm assuming they did:

Jagex establishes Terms & Conditions which is most likely reviewed by a lawyer. T&C takes precedence. Jagex creates the Rules of Conduct based on the T&C. The Code of Conduct is created and acts like substantive law specified for the forums.

In real life, it's common to find one law contradicting another. But that's why we have Courts because judges will interpret the law. In Runescape, I don't believe this should be the case. But I'd like to know any examples of one.

So in response to your question, I'd like to make this statement:

An individual should conduct themselves based on a law that a reasonable man would find to have the least damage to the community, and maintains the highest degree of fairness.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

01-May-2019 04:55:59 - Last edited on 01-May-2019 04:56:50 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
2_Tron said:


It seems pretty apparent to me.

Individual: "We don't allow topics that are controversial like race, religion."
Code of Conduct: "Though politics and religion threads are now permitted."

It's quite reasonable to determine that those two statements contradict each other. Most of the participants in this thread have agreed and identified the mistake.

It doesn't appear to be a matter of interpretation. This would've been a matter of interpretation:

Individual:

"In this circumstance, controversial threads should be avoided."
"Based on the context, the particular controversial thread should not have taken place."

If you feel that it's contradictory, can you please justify why it's so? I'm interested to know if there's a blunder on my part.
...

To use your phrasing Tron (hopefully without coming off overtly conceited), with a good amount of common sense, one can see where the mistake lies and why it can affect the rest of us.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

01-May-2019 11:45:59 - Last edited on 01-May-2019 11:57:02 by Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
FiFi LaFeles said:


I quite agree with you actually Fifi. In my earlier post I said that I had only expected for there to be a conversation between the CM team.

When Meadows reopened the thread, I believed the thread had achieved one of its primary objectives.

I contemplated on how soon I should request for a lock of the thread because in the past, something similar happened to one of my threads. Then, I immediately requested for a lock and then I thought of new points to discuss about and went "Oh shoot, I wanted to talk about x and y!"

So I'm giving it a bit of time to see if there's any constructive discussion that can be made before I decide to lock it.

Another reason I made this thread was that I hoped this would become a signal for Jagex to refresh themselves with the rules, whenever they can. Though I'm pretty sure they already know it inherently, its important to remember how much weight the words of a golden background has.
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

01-May-2019 11:54:30

Chief Elf

Chief Elf

Posts: 4,923Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
NexOrigin said:


Oh that's so interesting! Very sharp, almost forgot about the Forum Offence. I wonder why Kalaya didn't take it down after she updated the rules. Maybe they might've missed it. You know how it feels when you're so used to something, or you walk past something so often for so long that you don't notice the tiny changes?

Edit:

Maybe you can recommend on FH to have it removed or updated?
LGBT
|
Mental Health
|
Sweaty Fingers
|
Mod Meadows

01-May-2019 12:00:20 - Last edited on 01-May-2019 12:03:18 by Chief Elf

Quick find code: 278-279-764-66098026Back to Top