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Miu

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HeroicSnorro said:
While I wholeheartedly agree with the notion of removing TH Jagex have stated a long time ago that they need it to survive at all and getting us quality RS3 updates. [...] the quality of the updates has not increased over the past few years (in my opinion), updates do not happen as often as they used to and instead we're getting more and more TH promos (which is not what we meant with updates, by the way).

Jagex are making record profits right now, and as of yet we are seeing a general decline in the amount of non-microtransaction related content.

I know why it's happening, and that's money. As long as the players keep feeding TH it won't go away, and the more people who keep on using it the bigger it will get.


Agree with all this. Treasure Hunter needs to go, or RS3 needs to go f2p. A subscription-based model with game-impacting MTX is abhorrent. Take one or the other, both is not only greedy, but a detriment to the longevity of the game.

F2p + MTX means plenty of new players that would try to join the community and invest in the MTX. P2P with no (game impacting) MTX gives people a reason to play, it shows integrity in the game's vision. P2P + MTX is just a turnoff, and I'm sure it pushes new players away because they think the game is just a cashgrab.

At this point I'm convinced that the only reason the game hasn't gone f2p, is just to maintain the value of bonds.
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16-Aug-2017 06:54:44

Miu

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KeKmeleon said:

And this is bad how? maybe some people have jobs, other hobbies, and Zaros forbid! a social life. There is no prestige to maxing out skills in runescape anymore than reaching max level in WoW or reaching the endgame in any MMO. Reaching the endgame is the whole point. Its the reason you grind in the first place! I don't see how allowing people to pay for some bonus exp to speed the process.


In other words... you're paying money to NOT play the game. A fool and his money are easily parted. Engaging in (gameplay-impacting) MTX degrades the experience for players that actually enjoy the game, instead of spending money to prove how much they don't want to play.

It would be understandable on some level if updates came out with a higher level quality as a consequence of this MTX, but at the rate things are going, it looks like all the MTX money is going to support OSRS with their own updates.
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03-Oct-2017 18:49:51

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Draco Burnz said:
Ghosttalon said:
Also, I don't know if you know this, but before TH, income came from membership subscriptions...


TFW membership income wont be enough forever...
That's what Solomon's, Bonds, alternate game modes to encourage accounts like ironman, hardcore ironman, and group ironman (btw all three of those game modes don't have MTX yet somehow they're doing well...) and an entire different version of the game just to encourage subscription is there for.

TH is a portion of jagex's revenue, but I say they lose just as much revenue from disgruntled players that leave due to the aggressive promotion strategies.
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16-Oct-2017 22:29:12

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DarkPdaDude said:
Lol at pretending as if ironmen accounts make for most of the playerbase, LMAO.
My statement was that ironmen accounts were encouraged for additional membership revenue. Just like pures and skillers, alternate account types generate money, and pures are useless in RS3 so it's not a surprise why the gamemode was made.

I have no idea how you made the leap from that statement into deluding yourself into thinking I said something about ironman mode being more popular, but apparently the mere thought of that is enough to send you into an overly defensive tirade of incoherent rage.
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20-Oct-2017 07:50:25

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
That's what Solomon's, Bonds, alternate game modes to encourage accounts like ironman, hardcore ironman, and group ironman


What do different acc modes have to do with paying the bills?:@


Multiple accounts paying for membership means more money. Different account modes encourage extra accounts, which means low level content is accessed even if the players themselves aren't new to the game. It also increases bond demand. Different account modes also attract players that might not have alts otherwise, so it's a good financial decision.

It was not uncommon for players of Runescape to have multiple accounts with membership at the same time, especially pkers with their pures. Pures aren't as relevant anymore in RS3, so ironman is filling that gap, so to speak.
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24-Oct-2017 00:34:37 - Last edited on 24-Oct-2017 00:35:34 by Miu

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ALBUS POTTER said:
I don't see the problem. It's been part of this game for 5 years now. I'd agree with you if this post/rant was created within a reasonable time-frame of when MTX was released (2012), but 5 years?
You mean in the squeal of fortune forum that was removed? What a shame this thread wasn't there so it could have been scrubbed.

ALBUS POTTER said:
That's enough time for you to max off spins, then for new players not receive those benefits. That doesn't seem fair does it?
Same could be said for halloween events that gave tons of xp lamps, but those got removed, didn't they?

ALBUS POTTER said:
Plus this is a MMORPG that has survived for 11 years without any in-game purchases. It survived purely on membership payments.
Tell me any other MMORPG that has achieved anything close to that.
11 years of no in-game purchases make it that much more depressing. Not even sure what you're trying to convey with this, but it's honestly not helping your point in any way.

ALBUS POTTER said:
I think a game that's been alive for 16-17 years, especially with the state of games in this decade, have a right to offer people these benefits. People don't want to grind years for end-game content. (Majority of players are after mid-max tier gear).
And players have a right to voice their discontent at those "benefits".

ALBUS POTTER said:
Most people who play games lose interest in a game after 3-5 months. If they can speed up their gaming process by offering quicker levels, they will stay interested in the game.
Runescape 3 still has players because the game has incredible retention value, and only pissing off the player base in the extreme can make people quit. You know, the "you'll be back next week" joke. 3-month gamers weren't jagex's target audience until they opted for maximum extraction.
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29-Oct-2017 07:17:02 - Last edited on 29-Oct-2017 07:17:26 by Miu

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ALBUS POTTER said:
- They will lose staff members or work on less projects to improve the game. (No one works for free. Also if staff get pay-cuts they are obviously going to find a better job).
In 2015 Jagex had over 480 employees. As of 2016 they have about 320. Of the employees, about half the devs are now working on oldschool. They're making record profits and they're already downsizing in staff for more money. They can afford to cut some MTX too and please the playerbase.

ALBUS POTTER said:
- Membership prices will go up. Enough to pay for all the current staff (possibly x5 what we already pay). But this would make even less people want to play this game (what's better?).
Removing TH wouldn't magically remove Jagex's revenue from Solomon's, bonds, and membership. Again, they're making record profits and with the level of MTX in the game they could go f2p and still be generating money. But yes, an increase in membership cost would be preferable over selling xp on TH.

ALBUS POTTER said:
- If they lose too much money/profit the company maybe sold off again. Which is a gamble; the game could die, the game could turn purely into MTX, who knows?
You mean what's already happened? Jagex is already being passed around the Chinese like a cheap whore.

ALBUS POTTER said:
- Or they could just liquidate the company.
Okay, so you're clueless. Thanks for clarifying. Even if a company is losing money, it's often less expensive to continue running the company and continue generating revenue (even if the net income is at a loss) than to liquidate it. But it's making more than enough in net income so I have no clue why would you would even say this other than your own ignorance.

You haven't made any valid points and are just engaging in typical pro-mtx doomsaying. You yourself said the game lasted 11 years without them.
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29-Oct-2017 07:27:49

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Draco Burnz said:
Again, no one person can speak for the whole community.

You few ppl are the ones who dont like it, not the rest of us.


Love how you do the exact same thing you tell others not to do. Rather than try and derail the thread with statements that you can't back up with evidence, let's steer the thread back on course with the facts. Membership revenue is greater than MTX revenue. So why not improve the game for new players to encourage them to keep playing?

Blackwing said:
Jagex's financial statements prove that membership revenue is much greater (almost 20 million £) than microtransaction revenue, as you can see here:



You can find the statements on the Companies House website, and even though we don't yet have the statement for 2017, you have to remember that the MTX situation was already outright terrible in 2016 and even in 2015, so you can't really argue either that "well maybe they've had a tougher time in 2017", because they already pushed out MTX very aggressively in those previous years. And don't forget that MTX revenue includes TH, Solomon's store and bonds, meaning that out of the MTX revenue you see listed there, only a part of it comes from TH.

So really, they wouldn't have to substitute TH for anything else; they could just go back to Solomon's store additions, which are fine since they're mostly cosmetic AND guaranteed, so they don't prey on gambling addictions.[/lightskyblue]
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21-Jan-2018 15:11:55

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
So why not improve the game for new players to encourage them to keep playing?
Tells me not to derail thread and does the same thing.
It's not derailing. Some say MTX revenue is necessary, but it's not. Membership makes up more revenue than MTX, and a stronger playerbase means less reliance on MTX.

Reminder: This thread concerns treasure hunter, not all forms of MTX in the game. Reminder: the MTX numbers posted earlier are the whole: TH specific revenue is even less. It's not necessary. It should be removed to encourage growth in the playerbase. (LMAO how can one of the reasons for removing it be derailing???)

Draco Burnz said:
Whos to say new players wont enjoy th and actually stay because of it?

Yes i know the same could be said about the other side but once again, you think you know how other ppl will react when you dont.
It's delusional to think people would stay for treasure hunter. You couldn't have picked a worse time to make this foolish statement. Public reaction to lootboxes, MTX, and gambling-esque paid content are at an all time-low. Players hate this kind of garbage in games.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-good-loot-box-or-microtransaction-w508742

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/loot-boxes-have-reached-a-new-low-with-forza-7s-pay-to-earn-option/

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/257387-gamers-hate-buying-loot-boxes-games-using


So again, try to back up your statements with
evidence
. I do know how people will react... because I don't live under a rock.
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21-Jan-2018 19:42:04 - Last edited on 21-Jan-2018 19:46:43 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Runelower said:
Loot Boxes are absolute shit in terms of PR right now, yet so many people defend this shit here on RSOF, how so?


Good question which is actually answered repeatedly by the players themselves who hate TH but instead of quitting, they bought Primier Club memberships year after year.

With or without TH, players will still pay. Only idiots will remove TH to make themselves less money. :D:D

If TH is really "bad" for PR, why do these people who think it is "bad" PR still pay for Primier priviledge in a "bad" PR game? Does it make them part of the "bad" PR? :D:D

Actually a lot of players have boycotted premier club this year and have not renewed their membership when their last premier club expired.

Secondly, the gold injected into the game through TH actually causes inflation. Treasure Hunter actually makes everyone earn LESS money, as gold has less value.
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04-Feb-2018 00:03:47

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Dilbert2001 said:
I read these "boycott" things in all kinds of game forums but when their financial reports came year after year, there have never been any sight of boycott or girlcott. :P

I meant Jagex would be idiots to remove TH to make them less money, not the virtual "money" that has no real world value and the players can't even own IRL.


Well this is runescape we're talking about, not other games. Either way, we won't see the fruits of the supposed boycotts this year until the fiscal year is over and it's 2019. No point making blind speculation and unsupported claims.
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04-Feb-2018 04:32:04

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Dilbert2001 said:
Aha! So you realize it is useless to make "blind speculation and unsupported claims", right?

Jagex is the ones that knows. They are the ones pocketing the money. They run TH. Players play games and pay for TH if they want to., or not if they don't want to. Really simple. :D


Right. And players leave games that have rampant MTX and lootbox systems. TH dissuades people from joining the game.

Miu said:
https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-good-loot-box-or-microtransaction-w508742

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/loot-boxes-have-reached-a-new-low-with-forza-7s-pay-to-earn-option/

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/257387-gamers-hate-buying-loot-boxes-games-using


You also have to realize that membership profits exceed TH profits.



TH profits are only a fraction of MTX profits. Jagex could shift content from TH onto Solomon's as well as into the game as non MTX content.

In doing so, Jagex would:
- remove the unpopular lootbox system
- still be making MTX money from bonds and Solomon's,
- be making the game more attractive to new players by removing the unpopular Treasure Hunter that serves as a detriment to player retention as well as new player acquisition.

Like you said, players play games because they want to, and public sentiment is at an all time low for lootboxes.



Fun fact: The week of Nov 12, 2017, was the lowest average population week of RS3 in history. The Friday of the very same week, was the release of Battlefront 2, the game that sparked lootbox controversy worldwide and has spurred on lawmakers to try to take on these lootboxes.

MTX content like that has a measurable effect on the playerbase, as data has proven. Jagex can decide to either care for their playerbase, or care for a couple whales while the rest of the game stagnates.
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04-Feb-2018 05:27:11

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Dilbert2001 said:
I guess to these "a lot of players" the "P" in PR means private to themselves. But it is obvious this kind of "bad PR" TH or lockbox equivalence is hardly "bad" to the PUBLIC sector or else they won't sell.


PR, referring to the public, as in the people at large, not just runescape players. It's already known most of the RS community will lap up whatever Jagex gives them. New players? Not so much.

You've been unable to refute anything, just arguing semantics when you don't have data. Funny how you claim to be against blind speculation, when you've now gone even below that and are just trying to weasel your way around the information that proves, that, yes, lootboxes are bad PR.

Miu said:
Miu said:
https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/features/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-good-loot-box-or-microtransaction-w508742

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/loot-boxes-have-reached-a-new-low-with-forza-7s-pay-to-earn-option/

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/257387-gamers-hate-buying-loot-boxes-games-using


You also have to realize that membership profits exceed TH profits.

public sentiment is at an all time low for lootboxes.



Fun fact: The week of Nov 12, 2017, was the lowest average population week of RS3 in history. The Friday of the very same week, was the release of Battlefront 2, the game that sparked lootbox controversy worldwide and has spurred on lawmakers to try to take on these lootboxes.

MTX content like that has a measurable effect on the playerbase, as data has proven.
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06-Feb-2018 18:08:48

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Dilbert2001 said:
I didn't speculate and I never even mentioned anything about "blind speculation", let alone endorse or oppose it. Somebody mentioned it, perhaps it was you? It won't matter to me who anyway.

I only used real data. There is no sign of "bad PR".


Only used real data? You haven't used any data at all. Meanwhile I've provided several sources of bad PR at large in response to lootboxes.

Dilbert2001 said:
So you realize it is useless to make "blind speculation and unsupported claims", right?
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07-Feb-2018 01:23:48

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:
I didn't speculate and I never even mentioned anything about "blind speculation", let alone endorse or oppose it. Somebody mentioned it, perhaps it was you? It won't matter to me who anyway.

I only used real data. There is no sign of "bad PR".


Only used real data? You haven't used any data at all. Meanwhile I've provided several sources of bad PR at large in response to lootboxes.

Dilbert2001 said:
So you realize it is useless to make "blind speculation and unsupported claims", right?


Of course I can't use any REAL DATA because there is no such thing on the invisible "bad PR". Can somebody show me where it is please. :D


So you didn't use data. Thanks for making that clear. You may as well be arguing that "PR" doesn't even exist.

We should remove TH just in case that nasty bad PR thing is real though ;)
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07-Feb-2018 01:35:47

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Do not twist words. You never show any data that anybody can use, unless you are telling all our 260 mil RS players that only "wise" players can see it. ;)


Are you just going to keep ignoring data and then say there isn't any? What the hell, lmao.

Miu said:


Fun fact: The week of Nov 12, 2017, was the lowest average population week of RS3 in history. The Friday of the very same week, was the release of Battlefront 2, the game that sparked lootbox controversy worldwide and has spurred on lawmakers to try to take on these lootboxes.
These numbers get even more depressing when you realize that the RS3 concurrent player count includes lobbied players that are AFK, as well as RS3's bots... You keep going on about a lack of data, but you can't even support the claims in your own posts.

If you honestly believe that there were at some point 260 mil non-bot players that engaged with the game, the current playerbase would be a small fraction of that.

Using the numbers from 2016's subscription revenue, on average there were 500,000 members each month during 2016. (total sub revenue divided by yearly membership value = paying players)

Half a million. If there were 260 million players, then 259.5 million players would not be playing today. That's a less than 1% retention rate. There's your bad PR.
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07-Feb-2018 02:01:13

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Dilbert2001 said:
LOL. Who or what is "fun fact"? And how is that "public"? How he, she or it got this "data"?



I thought this was pretty standard knowledge but I guess not everyone knows where to find data.
http://www.misplaceditems.com/rs_tools/graph/

Original message details are unavailable.
How it works

Every five minutes, a perl script contacts the front page of Runescape and scrapes the displayed number of online players. This is the total number of players in both versions of the game.

A second request scrapes the number of online OSRS players. The difference between the OSRS and total players is the number of EOC players

The data is stored in a database for later retrieval and analysis.


Dilbert2001 said:
How come lower population every year actually gave Jagex higher subscription, year after year?
Rising membership fees, premiere membership. Also, remember, that number only takes into consideration payers,
not
active players.

Don't forget, the revenue numbers also include membership for OSRS. OSRS players jumped up quite a lot in 2015 and had sustained growth throughout 2016.

Also those numbers are for 2016, while the misplaced items population data is more recent.
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07-Feb-2018 02:18:54 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2018 02:23:21 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
LOL. You don't get the point. Again... WHO the hell is that whatever source you pulled up? I can put up anything that shows Jagex is 9000% better "PR" than a few years ago but then somebody will just ask "WHO is dilbert2001 and how does that graph show bad PR? Where did he pull that data out?"

Bad PR? Why do people still pay more? And really only revenue and profits shows good or bad "PR" to the investors, their employees and players who want to play this game because money keeps this game going. :)


??? It's a bot that scrapes the population data off of Jagex's own sites every 5 minutes and comes up with accurate numbers.

It's data. It's accurate. It explains in clear terms how the data was derived. You're now engaging in an appeal to authority, which is fallacious in nature. First you say there's no data. Then you say there's no real data. Then just because YOU don't know where the data is coming from, it must be wrong? (hint, even JMODS have commented on the site. It's a well known tool.)

If you want to keep redefining PR to yourself over and over again, feel free. But I'm not going to spoonfeed data to someone that is unwilling or unable to comprehend it.
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07-Feb-2018 02:44:08 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2018 02:55:00 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Appeal to "authority"? WHO is the "authority"?
You doubted the veracity of the data because of the "lack of authority." An ad hominem appeal to a lack of authority would be a more appropriate term for your fallacious argument. But you don't seem like a native english speaker, let alone latin, so I didn't want to overwhelm you.

Dilbert2001 said:
And I don't care who want to define or redefine his/her/its own "PR". The fact remains there are more good PR money going to Jagex years over years.


See? You're making unsubstantiated claims again. We don't have the data for 2017 yet, so your claim that there's "more good PR money" is, once again, blind speculation. Meanwhile, we DO have data that players are opting to play OSRS over RS3. One of the major benefits of OSRS is less emphasis on micotransactions. They do have bonds, but they don't have weekly Treasure Hunter promotions blotting out the sun.
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07-Feb-2018 03:09:18 - Last edited on 07-Feb-2018 03:09:57 by Miu

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Draco Burnz said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Appeal to "authority"? WHO is the "authority"?

And I don't care who want to define or redefine his/her/its own "PR". The fact remains there are more good PR money going to Jagex years over years.


Exactly.


Unfortunately there is not much evidence for his statement at the moment, so, no, not exactly.
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07-Feb-2018 03:17:04

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Dilbert2001 said:
Your "data" showed the "bad PR" population drop started from 2013 through 2016 but yet already revealed REAL WORLD DATA showed good PR revenue and profits rise all through those years.

It is easy to see despite of your "bad PR" claim, it did not affect the good PR people to continue to give Jagex more and more businesses in all those years. :)


First off, we're discussing the future of the game, not the past.
Secondly, the original PR claim was in reference to gaming as a whole and not Jagex in particular.

Anyway, we don't have the data for 2017's revenue yet, so we can't say for certain. It wouldn't surprise me if 2017 had higher MTX profits than 2016. The pushback against MTX didn't start until after Menaphos.

It's not MTX alone that has culminated ill will against Treasure Hunter - it's the drought of content between June 2017 that has continued even up until today. In order for Treasure Hunter to be considered damaging to the game, we'd have to see membership go up and MTX profits go down for the 2017 report. (Membership going up would be as a consequence of people playing OSRS instead of the MTX ridden RS3.)
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07-Feb-2018 03:30:40

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Dilbert2001 said:
Past, now or future, there is no indication whatsoever the kind of "bad PR" you mentioned affected the good PR business success that Jagex enjoyed. If you really have to find a correlation, it only shows the worse PR (again, by your definition) the more positive it affects Jagex's good PR business success.


MTX promotions had gotten so bad and the outrage was so much that even Jagex admitted it was becoming an issue. If all you care about is Jagex's bottom line, feel free to donate all the money you have to them. The issue is that none of that money is coming back into the game. Jagex has RECORD BREAKING PROFITS and yet the content is subpar, consistently.

RS3 had the lowest average players in its history last november. Apparently RS3 dying and OSRS scraping up the majority of the playerbase is good PR according to you.

The point is, even if Treasure Hunter was removed, Jagex would STILL be making enough money to support RS3, the quality of RS3 would increase and would have a healthier playerbase that would be more able to sustain growth. The reason they'd still have enough money is because there are other forms of MTX, like bonds that can be bought on EITHER game.

Right now the playerbase is strangled underneath content developed solely for temporary MTX promotions, while lasting content has been at an all time low.
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07-Feb-2018 03:47:23

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
You need to realize regardless how much you hate MTX and how "bad" (you think) it affects "PR", all businesses strive for the good PR that they can show on their balance sheets to their investors and employees.

The cat that catches the mice is a good cat. The better the balance sheet, the better PR the company is with Wall Street, and the better position they are in Main Street and the eyes of their own employees.


Do you have a point to all this? Because you're replying to me without even following anything discussed. I don't think you know what PR is, either, given the way you're using it. You're also not using any data to back up your opinions, so I have no clue what you're even on about.
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07-Feb-2018 04:06:35

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07-Feb-2018 04:20:27

Miu

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*steps over the last few pages and brings this discussion back to the forefront*

Blackwing said:
Acra said:
Support, I've been a major participant of TH over the years and I'd love to see it gone. However, I don't see it leaving as it generates a lot more revenue than monthly membership cost.

Edit: If they did remove it they'd have to substitute something else and that could be worse.

That's false, actually; Jagex's financial statements prove that membership revenue is much greater (almost 20 million £) than microtransaction revenue, as you can see here:



You can find the statements on the Companies House website, and even though we don't yet have the statement for 2017, you have to remember that the MTX situation was already outright terrible in 2016 and even in 2015, so you can't really argue either that "well maybe they've had a tougher time in 2017", because they already pushed out MTX very aggressively in those previous years. And don't forget that MTX revenue includes TH, Solomon's store and bonds, meaning that out of the MTX revenue you see listed there, only a part of it comes from TH.

So really, they wouldn't have to substitute TH for anything else; they could just go back to Solomon's store additions, which are fine since they're mostly cosmetic AND guaranteed, so they don't prey on gambling addictions.
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07-Feb-2018 04:45:14

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Exit Wound said:
scousy said:
Th doesen't pay for updates anyway so why keep it?


if i had to take a guess it probably keeps jagexs parent company happy... do any of u ever stop to think jagex isnt their own entity anymore? everything they do they have to answer to someone else first...lets just say they did remove TH...whats next huh? legitimate gold selling thats NOT in the form of bonds? XP packs that can be purchased for any skills? max level characters for a couple hundred bucks? increased monthly membership? maybe jagex wont care bout the loss of income but there parent company sure as hell will n best believe theyll find 1 way or another 2 make up for it


Treasure hunter pretty much is goldselling and those xp packs. Plus TH hasn't stopped jagex from increasing membership prices before. I don't get what this post is trying to say - TH is already that bad.
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17-Feb-2018 23:19:16

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scousy said:
The same ppl who defend th are the same ppl who say adding some of these promotional items in game would be too op. Please explain to me how th is balanced when we get promotions 24/7? If I suggested to add proteans as in game content those ppl would say that is way to op but if it's on th it's balanced. Proteans are ridiculously Common on th even if you don't buy keys. Proteans only give xp, But they will defend the nonstop 24/7 xp promotions like smouldering lamps and say it's balanced. You can already buy maxed accounts for $15000, to be honest that's pocket change irl with today's economy.


Now please tell me how adding proteans as in game content is too op compared to the 24/7 xp promotions? We get xp promotions almost every week or once every 2 weeks. I mean, proteans only give xp, just like th does so it seems balanced. :P
really makes you think..
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04-Mar-2018 05:28:44

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Doorknob747 said:
If you think about it, you only have the F2P portion of the player base complaining on that thread than on this one.


What does that even mean? F2Pers are complaining about Treasure Hunter, asking for it to be removed from F2P and made members only? Sounds like TH is a blight wherever it is and should be removed outright, with relevant equipment made into real content or shoved back into Solomon's.
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20-Mar-2018 00:37:41

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Dilbert2001 said:
TH is MTX. SGS is also MTX. Jagex and its employees live on MTX.
No, they live off membership subscriptions. As already proven in this thread, most of Jagex's revenue is from membership, not MTX. You can remove the MTX from the game and Jagex will still be going strong. You can't remove the game from the MTX and keep earning revenue, can you? ;)
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20-Mar-2018 21:48:34

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Yes, but MTX is not just TH. We're not asking for a removal of all MTX, just treasure hunter. The majority of Jagex's revenue is from membership. The majority of MTX is from members.

TH is not the sole revenue in terms of MTX, it is a subset of it. A subset of a minority of Jagex's revenue being removed will not break them.

Removing one part of MTX in order to facilitate more membership will generate more revenue than trying to milk the game by forcing TH forever. Last double xp weekend, for the first time ever, OSRS averaged more players in spite of RS3 having double xp. Declining members means less MTX revenue as you can't get MTX revenue from people that don't play.

Less MTX, more players, more revenue, more membership, healthier game.
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21-Mar-2018 02:11:21

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Dilbert2001 said:
What real world evidence shows Jagex will make more money from subscription if they remove TH? We only see the responses of the 30 users in the forums and some of them like TH too.

30 x $8 x 12 < $3000 a year.

Yes, everybody can suggest but good luck if you think Jagex really care about that $3000 a year that (1) isn't guranteed, (2) they will pay on time and (3) they won't charge back and remove TH that gives them a fortune? :D:D:D

Declining members? Big fat stupid joke as I have mentioned REAL WORLD FINANCIAL REPORTS showed members have been rising and are expected to rise this year and at least next. Oh should Jagex be shaking in their Ranger Boots if all these 30 players in the forums quit. :D:D:D


You've mentioned but you haven't offered proof or any links.

Dwindling players =/= dwindling members. People can pay for membership and not play the game (which is what premier membership encourages for some). If people are paying for membership but not playing, they're probably not engaging in MTX.

Seems like it would be a better idea to encourage premier membership and reduce other MTX, because MTX only works when a subset of the population is a "whale". Less players = less whales, which is obvious. You can reduce the amount of MTX but with more players you're more likely to hook someone that spends a ton, than you are to bleed your playerbase dry and hope those whales never die.
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21-Mar-2018 02:38:33

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Dilbert2001 said:
I have mentioned and provided links in many threads about the Jagex official financial reports. If you haven't read it, here it is, with English translation and comments from some reddit users:

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/77uptr/according_to_shanghai_fukongs_financial/

And this is a report from financial analysts on Jagex's 2017-2019 fiscal years:

http://vip.stock.finance.sina.com.cn/q/go.php/vReport_Show/kind/search/rptid/3894458/index.phtml

Note that Jagex's net income in the coming year is expected to jump more than 8% from 297 mil RMB to 323 RMB, or USD 51.68 mil.

Now, can you please show us the REAL WORLD facts about declining members and losing profits? :D:D:D


Doesn't separate membership from MTX revenue so no clue what you're trying to say with this.

Secondly predictions aren't proof or evidence. Anyone can make predictions.

Thirdly I said dwindling playerbase of RS3, not dwindling membership. We all know membership is going up thanks to OSRS.

You do realize the whole POINT of proof is to back up what you say? Linking something unrelated and trying to use it as proof for statements that don't correlate makes no sense.
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21-Mar-2018 04:37:41 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2018 05:12:12 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
When said it 9000 times from the perspective of a business, RS NEXTGEN, RS3, OSRS, MTX, TH, Premier Club or whatever don't make any different to Jagex and its investors and the business/financial sectors covering them.

The bottom line remains they are very profitable and going to be even more profitable with their TH initiatives. Nobody cares about the $5 subscription somebody in the forums and Jagex won't even care to use that $5 bill to wipe their nose. It is hilarious somebody think Jagex will throw away $50 million a year just for $5. :D:D:D

You are also wrong in every respect regarding OSRS and MTX but I'll leave the other forumers to enlighten you because


Membership isn't even 5 dollars for new subscribers (you know, the ones TH scares away). And OSRS does have MTX in the form of bonds. You seem to be under the belief that TH is the only form of MTX that causes cash to flow into Jagex's pockets. If that's the case you're sadly mistaken.
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21-Mar-2018 22:22:30

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
Membership isn't even 5 dollars for new subscribers (you know, the ones TH scares away)


Last i checked membership is now 10 USD.

So this is false.
I just said membership isn't 5 dollars. ??? Yeah it's like 8-10 USD. Did you misread?

Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
). And OSRS does have MTX in the form of bonds. You seem to be under the belief that TH is the only form of MTX that causes cash to flow into Jagex's pockets.


Ofc some might consider bonds MTX, but most of the OSRS ppl youd ask would say otherwise.
It's not about what people "OSRS ppl id ask" consider MTX. It's considered MTX in Jagex's revenue, which is where it matters.
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21-Mar-2018 22:37:51

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
I just said membership isn't 5 dollars. ??? Yeah it's like 8-10 USD. Did you misread?


Nah you're just trying to save your hide.

Its 10 USD and everyone knows it.

Heres what you said:

Miu said:
Membership isn't even 5 dollars for new subscribers (you know, the ones TH scares away)


Isn't even means that it isn't 5 dollars. In my particular case perhaps it would have been better phrased as "no longer 5 dollars." You'd have to deliberately go out of your way to misinterpret my message in that way, especially since it has little bearing on my post itself. You've already been told to stop arguing semantics so you should probably stop.
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21-Mar-2018 23:10:50

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Dilbert2001 said:
Blackwing said:
Traeh said:
I thought OSRS was completely separate from RS3 , feeling silly not knowing

It is completely separate; nothing can be transferred from RS3 to OSRS and vice versa. > )


Absolutely, completely, totally, definitely 100% incorrect since you can convert RS3 gp to OSRS gp. Not only Jagex said they do not prohibit, you can even see many threads in the forums on such offers. :D:D:D


Trust trading to swap gold isn't allowed on the forums and if you see any of that you should report it to forum help.
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17-Apr-2018 22:15:14

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Blackwing said:

Any sort of trust trading IIRC is nowadays allowed on the forums, as long as it's placed on the appropriate subforum of course. (Well except maybe DMM swapping under the current rules, heard it had stricter rules this time but not really sure how it works.)


No, other trust trading is allowed, but gold swapping is still not allowed to be organized on the forums.

See here Quick find code: 319-320-51-64255724
Which is still considered part of the forum rules.

You can also see here Quick find code: 94-95-486-65989354 for an example of the rule still being applied post forum rules changing.
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18-Apr-2018 00:19:35

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Dilbert2001 said:
RS3 and OSRS are seperate games but their economies are tied because gp is allowed to be transferred between them.


That's completely nonsense. Using that logic you could say World of Warcraft and OSRS are linked because you can give someone WoW gold and they'll give you OSRS gold. Both forms of gold originate from their respective games. Whether it's allowed or not has no bearing on whether they are """linked""" or not. Yeah, you can trade OSRS gold for RS3 gold, but the gold in OSRS still came from OSRS, and the gold on RS3 still originates in RS3. No gold is being exchanged between the games, it's just trading hands on their original games.
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18-Apr-2018 00:22:57

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:
RS3 and OSRS are seperate games but their economies are tied because gp is allowed to be transferred between them.


That's completely nonsense. Using that logic you could say World of Warcraft and OSRS are linked because you can give someone WoW gold and they'll give you OSRS gold. Both forms of gold originate from their respective games. Whether it's allowed or not has no bearing on whether they are """linked""" or not. Yeah, you can trade OSRS gold for RS3 gold, but the gold in OSRS still came from OSRS, and the gold on RS3 still originates in RS3. No gold is being exchanged between the games, it's just trading hands on their original games.


When two players are EXCHANGING gold between 2 games, they are not just "giving" or "gifting" each other player gold. They are trading gold.

When two players are trading WoW gold for OSRS gp they are real world trading. It is not allowed per Jagex's EULA. You can't say they are just "giving" or "gifting" each other gold and gp.

However, it is not real world trading when a RS3 player trade gp for OSRS gp with an OSRS player because Jagex approves it.

Trading and "giving" or "gifting" are totally different things. :D:D:D


Whether or not jagex approves makes no difference, as the gold still originated in their respective games. The economies are not linked as no gold is actually transferred between games, it's merely changing hands in the games the gold came from.
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18-Apr-2018 00:56:23

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Dilbert2001 said:
RS3 players who get 9000 bil gp from TH can convert it to OSRS gp and be way way way way way ahead of OSRS players. It is an undeniable fact. :D:D:D
That is correct, but the RS3 economy is the one that will suffer inflation as a consequence. No OSRS gold is created as a consequence of RS3's MTX activities.
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18-Apr-2018 02:19:20

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:
RS3 players who get 9000 bil gp from TH can convert it to OSRS gp and be way way way way way ahead of OSRS players. It is an undeniable fact. :D:D:D
That is correct, but the RS3 economy is the one that will suffer inflation as a consequence. No OSRS gold is created as a consequence of RS3's MTX activities.


Who care about the economy or inflation if they are going to get a lot of gp from TH? They are not going to grind their gp. Economy doesn't bother them. They just get gp from TH and use them in both RS3 and OSRS to be better than the others. They pay to win in RS3 and also in OSRS. Good for them if that's what they care. :D:D:D


I'm glad you recognize that aggressive MTX practices and short-sighted whales are damaging to the game and the economy. Good for you if that makes you happy.
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18-Apr-2018 04:42:23

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Dilbert2001 said:
Konota said:
Runelower said:

What is the reason RS3 active population has declined from 39k to 24k active players in the last 3 years?

Let's see.
- New top free games that are released on the market (Fortnite for example, roflstomping most games atm)
- 07 Scape taking away some players (hence the reason why I do not support more versions of Runescape, 2011 for example)
- Shitty updates in batches, broken promises, ...
-


I mean, everyone seems to blame MTX for lack of players, but based on what?


Actually active RS3 members have risen to 723.3k. Remember, OSRS and RS3 members are subscribed under the same plan and able to play both games. Besides, OSRS are also affected by the MTX from RS3 because gp can be exchanged between both games.

The current top 10 PC video games according to SuperData Research are:

1. League of Legends
2. Dunegon Fighter Online
3. Fantasy Westeard Journey Online II
4. Crossfire
5. PlayerUnknwon's Battlegrounds
6. Fortnite: Battle Royale
7. World of Warcraft
8. World of Tanks
9. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft
10. Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

All of them have a lot more MTX than Runescape and most of them are fully supported by MTX without subscription.

In fact, all except WoW are free to play and not MMO. Pay to play MMO are dying, not Runescape, not MTX. That's the real fact. :D:D:D


PUBG isn't free2play lmao

According to this sort of data runescape would be making more money if they went f2p and upped the MTX even more... but instead they raised the subscription price. A greedy act of desperation? Or will we be seeing a reduction in MTX in the future?
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22-Apr-2018 22:26:53

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Dilbert2001 said:
PUBG isn't f2p but it is also not an MMO. LMAO :D:D:D

RS may make more if they go fully f2p, particularly in Asia years later when MMO and subscription deteriorate more, but 723k members are good enough now. :D:D:D


It may not be an MMO but the average round still has more players than some rs3 worlds, lmao....
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23-Apr-2018 01:35:48

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Dilbert2001 said:
Doorknob747 said:
Blackwing said:
https://youtu.be/BQcsORIwkSo?t=7m3s

Satire. > )


TH earned, Dung XP from lamps does not come with Dung tokens included. So basically useless for F2P players who find dungeoneering rewards very useful.


Neither do members get any DG tokens with the DG xp lamps from TH.

DG token boxes are also a TH reward both members and free players can get.

Members and free players get equal treatment in that aspect. :D:D:D

Guys can we get back on track please? Whether members or free players get DG tokens or not isn't really relevant as to whether TH should be removed or not.
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30-Apr-2018 22:59:09 - Last edited on 01-May-2018 03:08:31 by Miu

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Ashlin107 said:
But you didn't say why these games are being called illegal although there are no laws around them as you claim. Again Belgium is just going after the larger games first. Then when that's all said and done they'll naturally move on to smaller companies like Jagex. That's how law enforcement works take out the big offenders before moving onto the small time offenders.

As for the Netherlands well that doesn't change the fact they are going after those publishers or that Belgium are hot on their heels as well. Soon the rest of the EU will follow suit too.

But it would seem your unwilling to argue about this or are unable to. But that won't change the fact that governments are working against Loot Boxes.

As for "it takes time". You don't understand how laws are implemented do you? Governments need to give people time adapt to laws particularly when businesses are involved since they'd need rewrite their plans to make sure they are in line the new laws and make the necessary changes. That goes double for the gaming industry. Since getting rid of loot boxes isn't as simple as highlighting the code that relates to loot boxes and pressing backspace.


Well said.
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02-May-2018 19:27:42

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Dilbert2001 said:
"one analyst sees spending on loot boxes increasing by over 62 percent in the next four years to become a $47 billion piece of the industry. By then, loot boxes will represent over 29 percent of all spending on digital games, the analyst said, up from just under 25 percent currently."


People are expected to spend 62% more on loot boxes over the next 4 years too.


That's what one analyst said. That's not a crystal ball. If you're not willing to discuss what's likely to happen in terms of legislation in the future, then why are you discussing one person's opinion on something that hasn't even happened yet?

I advise you stick to your own mantra: Dilbert2001 said:
I am not here to argue about hypothetical events and personal beliefs . I am here to discuss with facts, facts and nothing but facts. :D:D:D
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03-May-2018 02:56:40 - Last edited on 03-May-2018 02:57:27 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Blackwing said:
0815 said:
As for the topic: As long as there are customers who are buying there will be Treasure Hunter content. Those in favour of TH, continue buying, those against, stop buying. At the end of the year the numbers matter.

If only Jagex figured it out that long term, they'd make more money from subscriptions and cosmetic MTX if they scrapped the P2W MTX. Hell, even keeping bonds would be fine, as they actually do a lot of good, while TH does nada in that regard. > )


I bet they know what they are doing, and doing right. That's why Jagex is making 28 mil 43 million British Pounds net profits in 2017. :D:D:D


That's probably because they didn't spend all their money on another failed MMO/card game attempt in 2017. All those Transformer Universes and mechscapes and Chronicles really take a big cut of the profit.
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03-May-2018 18:16:19

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Dilbert2001 said:
TU and Mechscape haven't been a financial factor for Jagex since their 2015 report at all. Nobody know about Chronicles since Jagex never announced information on individual titles. "Really take a big cut of the profit"?


Yes, part of the reasons profits have been so high lately is Jagex isn't wasting their money on some other game that never turns out. Seems like we'll be getting another one, soon though.
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04-May-2018 03:29:25

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
Well, they just removed Chronicle's ability to buy the currency used to open card back lootboxes. Seems mtx didn't help this Jagex game stay afloat...


Yet it wasnt due to mtx that cause chronicle to go under, it was due to this:

https://puu.sh/AiEbz/7d4dc3027f.png
I don't think Chronicle failed due to random posts on reddit. I trust if you have any opinions on Chronicle, that you'd be able to say something in your own words rather than selectively snipping someone's post from another site. :@
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08-May-2018 23:53:39 - Last edited on 08-May-2018 23:54:31 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:
No Steam games except their own work for long. ;)
Chronicle was removed from steam i'm pretty sure.


No. Jagex removed Chronicle from their own sites and handed it over to Steam on a silver plate months ago. Now they are removing it from Steam too. :D:D:D
You genuinely don't understand the relationship between Jagex and Steam, if that's what you think.

Dilbert2001 said:
Remember we used to see 2 kids playing Chronicles in many places in RS3? They removed it a few months ago. That's the time Jagex pulled their own support and turned it over to Steam. They also removed the forums from their own official site.

In fact, if you check Jagex's official blog, you can see the last post before today's announcement was Oct 2016. :D:D:D

https://www.rschronicle.com/blog

The comment on Reddit was right. Jagex pulled the plug on Chronicle long ago. :(

However, this has nothing to do with MTX or not. Can you say Funorb is closing because of MTX too? Of course not because it is 100% subscription based. :D:D:D
And that... has nothing to do with what I said. One thing's for sure, though. Funorb survived longer without MTX than 8realms, war of legends, chronicle, and transformers did, and they all varying levels of MTX.
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09-May-2018 05:36:41

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Draco Burnz said:
Miu said:
I don't think Chronicle failed due to random posts on reddit. I trust if you have any opinions on Chronicle, that you'd be able to say something in your own words rather than selectively snipping someone's post from another site


Please read said post as it explains why it went under...

Plus that is my opinion on the matter thus it only makes sense to just show it.

I trust you have the ability to read what was said.
A forum is a place to discuss your ideas, not post random pics of other people's posts online. If you have nothing to contribute, just don't post.
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09-May-2018 05:37:48

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UrekMazino said:
You saying only 22% of gamers display p2w is soooo misleading. From the report your provided:

68.6% say cosmetic only is ok
22% dislike pay to win
5.8% say they don't purchase them
2.4% say they'd rather pay up front
1.3% say they're a fan

Remember, we're talking about TH here, TH is a form of MTX that provides in game advantage. Those 896 voters (huge sample size btw /s) saying cosmetic only is ok will definitely say RS3's TH is not ok as it gives in game advantage by allowing you to skip over some progression.

If I'm interpreting "I'd rather pay up front" correctly, it means that those players would rather buy a full game that has no MTX/p2w feature. And the "I don't purchase them" players are indifferent to MTX/p2w but do no participate it in.

So even if you exclude the 2 types of players mentioned above, it would still mean that a whopping 90.6% of the voters would not be ok with RS3's TH (and 98.7% if you include them). That is in no way a vocal minority of players being ok with p2w.

Agreed, thank you for the contribution Diblert :)
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29-May-2018 22:01:54

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Blackwing said:
Billiebear said:
To state it another way, with 5 large packs, 6 medium, and 10 small protean packs, which in total is nearly impossible to acquire in a reasonable amount of time, I got just over 700k xp. This means little to someone fighting for max or 200M xp.

A whale-like key buyer wouldn't settle for that; they'd spin for much more than that. And you gotta remember, those 700k exp you got from proteans, is 700k exp less resources used from the regular game, so the prices of existing resources drops accordingly from decreased demand.


This is a very good point and an often underlooked aspect at how the artificial injection of items into the economy through MTX can impact the economy. Even untradeables released through treasure hunter can damage the price of goods, hurting skillers, pvmers, and overall - just hurt everyone playing the game that doesn't make use of those rampant MTX.

Another example of how TH is degrading the experience for everyone.
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31-May-2018 23:16:06

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Dilbert2001 said:
Breakdown of Jagex's 2017 Revenue from official financial Fukong Financial Report:

Membership: £38.33 mil
TH: £22.42 mil
Runecoin: £2.48 mil
Bond: £20.19 mil
Advert: £0.33 mil
Others: £1.36 mil
=
Total: £85.13 mil

Member headcounts went up from 720k to 760k. Membership fees rose but the much better than expected big jump in revenue came mostly from MTX. Membership contributed only 45% to Jagex's total revenue last year.

So as predicted and mentioned many many times in these forums, Jagex's MTX is going to catch up to their peers. So don't even think about getting rid of MTX. It is just impractical since subscription is not going to make a game company much money, Jagex included. :D:D:D

Also, the more interesting fact is revenue from Runecoin is only 11% of that from TH. SGS doesn't seen to be doing too good. :D:D:D

http://file.finance.sina.com.cn/211.154.219.97:9494/MRGG/CNSESH_STOCK/2018/2018-6/2018-06-02/4491886.PDF


This is really interesting, thanks. The money from bonds is very close to that of TH. I'm also confident that if TH was removed, bonds would pick up the slack.

You also have to realize that the majority of active users are already on OSRS, and thus the only MTX they have available is bonds. We'll see bonds continue to make up a larger part of jagex's revenue.

The "11%" statistic you posted is completely misleading because there's no reason to compare the two in that way except for a sense of scale. It's not useful.

Better breakdown of percentages:


TH: £22.42 mil = 49.7%
Runecoin: £2.48 mil = 5.5%
Bond: £20.19 mil = 44.7%
MTX profit total: £45.09 = 100%
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04-Jun-2018 19:41:58

Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
One player's "confidence" doesn't mean much to a the top and bottom line of a game with 260+ mil players unfortunately. Jagex knows the best. They know what's the best things to do. They know what the world think and are doing the best things.
If you say so.


Dilbert2001 said:
Keep going back to the OSRS vs RS3 issue doesn't mean anything to the top and bottom line of Jagex whatsoever as I mentioned numerous times both OSRS and RS3 members are under the same subscription.
The point I was making with that statement is that bonds represent MTX that is available through OSRS. As OSRS's population increases, so too will the purchases of bonds for OSRS, and so too will the percentage of bond's contributing to the total MTX revenue. Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough for you.

Dilbert2001 said:
Runecoins can't be used in game, TH, buy subscription, etc. They can only be used to buy SGS items. It is a SGS specific currency. Low runecoin sales figure shows clearly low SGS sales.
False, runecoins can also be used in certain events in the "fallen nihil" style. If anything it also shows that those events have done very little to boost runecoin purchases.
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04-Jun-2018 21:28:42

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
We players, again, don't know how many of these Jagex paid members are from RS3 or OSRS. Only Jagex knows. But whether these OSRS or RS3 players buy bonds, they are all good and their purchases count toward the same Bond revenue put down on their financial report. The bottom line remains it doesn't matter to Jagex if OSRS or RS3 players buy Bonds because it is the same money they are treated equally in their financial reports.
True, but to say it doesn't matter is silly. If Jagex doesn't see bonds doing well on RS3, they may add features such as using bonds to unlock runemetrics, bank presets, etc etc. If they want to encourage bond usage on oldschool, they can add things like the ability to use bonds to bypass namechange's delay timer, which they did. What bonds are doing and where is certainly important, and I don't think a player can simply say it "doesn't matter." As you're so quick to claim, only jagex knows if it matters or not ;)

Dilbert2001 said:
And the fact is the revenue from RS3 and OSRS players combined on Bond was still less than the revenue from TH that only RS3 playes opened their wallets for. So even if you insist, all the money from Bond Jagex reported in 2017 all came from OSRS, it was still less than the revenue from the RS3 only TH.

That revenue is part of "the others", which is not more than only 1.3 mil pounds. It is not even half of the already low 2.4 mil pounds from Runecoin. Besides, goods from these couple of small MTX sales events were the similar or even the same cosmetic items from SGS, not the xp boosts lamps/stars/protean and common resources from TH. Even if you combine the revenue of "the others" and runecoin, they are still only 17% of TH.
Once again, false. The data says "Runecoin" of which the fallen nihil sales are part of. If the data said "Solomon's" you would be correct. So either you're wrong now, or your old data was wrong.
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04-Jun-2018 23:00:18

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
***
IF
*** Jagex doesn't see bonds doing well on RS3/OSRS, they may...

Yes, right...
*** IF ***
... But saying "IF Jagex this" and "IF Jagex that" without being Jagex themselves and without any data showing such "IFs" still don't mean a thing. And even if the "IF" clause happens, what is the "THENs"? It can be anything. Thanks for your comment or "confidence if...." even without actual factual information anyway.
I'm not sure what prompted this confusing post, but all those examples I mentioned are factual things that have actually already happened. Somehow I think you realize that, though, since you snipped out all the facts and fixated yourself on the word "
if
."

Dilbert2001 said:
If Runecoin included "fallen nihil" sales and such, then it only means even less players are paying real money to buy SGS items. It only means TH is even more important than SGS.
It absolutely does include fallen nihil. Actually.... It even includes people that have bought runecoins, but haven't spent them on anything. Again, the category is "Runecoins," Not SGS. If the category was SGS specific, it would be leaving out all those unspent coins.
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05-Jun-2018 00:49:43 - Last edited on 05-Jun-2018 00:56:02 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Jagex added more usages for bonds not because they thought "if" bonds were not doing well. On the contrary, it has been doing very well but Jagex wanted it to bring in even more money. Same thing with TH. They kept adding new features to TH obviously not because they thought "if TH was not doing well", it was just because they wanted it to make more money.
Hasn't addressed anything I said, once again focusing on semantics and "if" instead of factual information. Of course Jagex cares about the performance of each segment individually and will modify it to capitalize on that performance.
Dilbert2001 said:
FACT: TH + Bonds are bringing in more revenue than membership. MTX is more profitable than subscription for Jagex in 2017.
Two things wrong with this. One, combining these two things is completely meaningless data except for in a sense of scale. And one could easily go around and apply the inverse, membership + bonds is greater than TH. No point to that though, like adding apples and oranges.
Secondly this thread is about TH, not MTX as a whole, please try to remember that.
Dilbert2001 said:
FACT: MTX is doing well, and getting better and better. That's not an "IF", it is a 2017 Jagex Financial Reoprt FACT.
See above.
Dilbert2001 said:
Doesn't it remain the same FACT: SGS is not brining in much money, in fact, far less than TH in 2017? It is crystal clear. So much for "remove TH and put everything in SGS? Good thing Jagex did not listen to this "important if".
The point is to remove TH and apply its content elsewhere, like SGS. SGS would of course become more profitable if it had more cosmetics, but no one ever argued that SGS makes more money, you may wish to read before replying. If you think the cosmetics shouldn't be added to SGS, that's fine by me :)
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22-Jun-2018 16:49:43 - Last edited on 22-Jun-2018 16:51:50 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu, you are still arguing about semantics without any data of your own. For the 9000 times, it is still your own opinion without any data to support your claim "SGS would of course become more profitable if it had more cosmetics". Where did you get the "of course" from?
IF you understood the post, it would be obvious. Cosmetics get released on TH all the time. People buy TH keys because they want those cosmetics. If those cosmetics were released on Solomon's instead of TH, then the revenue from TH would be diverted to Runecoin purchases instead. That's fairly simple.

Dilbert2001 said:
Good thing Jagex knows their business. That's why they made more money from MTX and among MTX, TH gave them more money than the other 2 means in 2017. That's the fact.
They also know RS3's popularity is dwindling, which is why they implemented OSRS, which now has twice as many concurrent players as RS3.

Dilbert2001 said:
Good thing Jagex already told everybody twice TH is here to stay. Good thing Jagex amplied their statement by physically adding TH to the event calendar, hence establishing TH as a regular RS content instead of just a distraction.

Don't like that? Too bad but nothing you can do except don't pay TH and don't look at the TH events in the calendar.
Or one could just play OSRS, along with the other 67% of the userbase. When TH is removed, maybe RS3 will be worth salvaging. :)
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27-Jun-2018 02:28:53

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:
You still don't realize Jagex doesn't care who play RS3, OSRS, both, or none as long as they pay.


And as long as they pay, jagex doesn't care if it's TH or Runecoins making the money, do they? ;) Thus remove TH and put the cosmetics there.


But "they" are paying 9 times in TH than Runecoins, so TH is here... and let me remind you, you can see the TH promotions in the in game Calendar.

They are running Boneyard now. Don't miss it the opportunity. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Seems like TH isn't making enough money, time to get your battlepass.
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30-Jun-2018 00:52:04

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Dilbert2001 said:
Of course companies are already looking to make even more money. Nobody ever make "enough" money when they can make more.

PUBG made $700 mil in 2017 but of course that' s not enough so they put in Battle Pass last week.

Time to get your TH keys
AND
Runepass. :D:D:D
An apt comparison to a dying game ;)
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30-Jun-2018 01:49:24

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Dilbert2001 said:
Funorb doesn't exist any more and it had no MTX whatsoever. RS Classic will soon cease to exist and it also has no MTX whatsoever. Why just compare any game to 8Realms but not all the games in Funorb and RSC?


Why did Funorb and RSC die? Lack of players and lack of monetization strategies.

Why did 8realms and transformers universe die? Over aggressive monetization strategies at expense of the game. Which of those two situations sounds closer to RS3's situation? The player count speaks for itself, I'm sure you can figure it out. ;)
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02-Jul-2018 19:49:49

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
LOL@"Winding down" x 9000!!!. Perhaps Santa Clause said that.

RunePass certainly can't get membership. RunePass certainly can't get TH keys and there'll be no instant mega xp for the Biggies. RunePass certainly can't get the actually useful SGS items like bank slots and keepsakes. And more importantly, those who only want instant xp, gp and good looking cosmetics without playing the game much certainly won't benefit.

Sure, it is a blessing in disguise for Jagex, as it is an extra MTX way for more revenue, ala the PUBG style. Words of Wisdom: you never have enough ways to make enough money. :D:D:D

However as a player, I like RunePass although I don't spend RC for it in this cosmetics "only" stage. It gives me an option though. More choices are always good.


Once again, you completely ignore both the context and the content of my post to post some long-winded irrelevancies and platitudes concerning profitability.

Mod Osborne claimed that RunePass is a 'test to see if we can pull back from other things like Treasure Hunter." Pulling back, winding down, either way we didn't see a TH promo this week, and as a successor to fallen nihil style events, this should sell more runecoins and inject less XP into the game.

While I'm not happy with Runepass at its current state (specifically awarding fallen star and lamps, among other items), it holds promise in raising that low runecoin bottom line you're so concerned about. ;) Which in turn lessens TH promotions, as has already been proven this week.
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05-Jul-2018 22:10:50

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Once again, you completely ignore both the context and the content of my post to post some long-winded irrelevancies and platitudes concerning profitability.

Mod Osborne claimed that RunePass is a 'test to see if we can pull back from other things like Treasure Hunter." Pulling back, winding down, either way we didn't see a TH promo this week, and as a successor to fallen nihil style events, this should sell more runecoins and inject less XP into the game.

While I'm not happy with Runepass at its current state (specifically awarding fallen star and lamps, among other items), it holds promise in raising that low runecoin bottom line you're so concerned about. ;) Which in turn lessens TH promotions, as has already been proven this week.


Again, you are arguing about meaning of words and semantics again? But sorry, I have no interest in it whatsoever.

Just to be exactly clear, what I meant was TH is not going away. TH is continued to be promoted. Jagex never said they won't sell TH keys anymore. And the reason? And the reason? Because TH is 26% of their revenue, almost 10 times as much as RC
I haven't argued any semantics in that post, so you may wish to read it over a few times and try to get a grip on what my post actually says and not what you think it says.

And, just like you state, runecoins aren't making as much money, and thus runepass is set to raise the runecoin to TH ratio in terms of profitability.
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06-Jul-2018 03:34:21

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
I haven't argued any semantics in that post, so you may wish to read it over a few times and try to get a grip on what my post actually says and not what you think it says.

And, just like you state, runecoins aren't making as much money, and thus runepass is set to raise the runecoin to TH ratio in terms of profitability.


Just to tell you can say "pulling back" is the same as "winding down", but I have no interest to even talk about that. You can go ask an English professor if you like though.
Once again, you're ignoring context. That statement was actually a dismissal of your attempt to argue semantics. You may wish to practice what you preach, and stop taking issue with specific language. You can ask me for clarification (which I did provide if you tried reading the post in context instead of claiming I was arguing semantics). You can also ask your teacher what words mean, if you really need to.

Dilbert2001 said:
LOL@"Winding down" x 9000!!!.


Dilbert2001 said:
There is still nothing to show "runepass is set to raise the runecoin to TH ratio in terms of profitability". Can you show proof please.
Mod Osborne has claimed runepass is a success, we'll see some numbers once the event is over :)
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06-Jul-2018 16:47:39

Miu

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Original message details are unavailable.
Honestly, I see avenues like Runepass, or improved versions based on your feedback, as better for the long term than Smouldering Lamps etc. We are experimenting, and I feel this is a positive

Original message details are unavailable.
Genuinely, no. It’s not something that has motivated us. So many of the team are active players and they want to explore ways of making money that is better for the long term of the game


Some quotes from Mod Osborne from reddit. Imgur tags aren't working atm.
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06-Jul-2018 16:52:10

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Every Day said:
Unpopular opinion here:
I think RuneScape 3 should go F2p, and Jagex should 'double down' on the RunePass idea. By this I mean offering more inspiring rewards, as a result of investing more MTX development time into it, and making the Pass challenges more unique, instead of just gain one million experience points. I also don't think that it is essential for the RunePass to offer significant experience rewards either, as if the cosmetics are awesome - they will sell the RunePass without P2w experience gain.

If the revenue generated from the RunePass is considered 'good', then I think they should tone down the amount of Treasure Hunter promotions massively; I don't consider the base Treasure Hunter experience to be that P2w, as experience is granted to a much more minor degree.

What do you think?


Currently the aggressive monetization combined with membership is really unappealing. going f2p would help that in regards to new player, but would it help the longevity of the game? Also, you can't have both. Runescape going f2p would definitely mean more TH promotions.

Also, "going f2p" in this context means removing the membership subscription and letting everyone access formerly members content, before someone starts trying to argue semantics bullshit again.
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20-Jul-2018 05:01:16

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Every Day said:
I also think that the game needs to be available on the Microsoft store, and steam to access a wider audience of potential players; a F2p MMORPG with nearly 2 decades of active development, with a fair business model has the capability to become really popular.


I don't think catering exclusively to windows 10 users will help reduce any of the MTX.
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29-Jul-2018 18:09:15

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Two weeks after the CEO's "interview" and "growth" statement, RS3 reaches its lowest average concurrent playercount of all time.

The average gamer doesn't play online games 8 hours a day. They also don't play runescape. And why would they, with rampant TH and content droughts for 3 months?
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06-Aug-2018 20:20:17 - Last edited on 06-Aug-2018 20:25:00 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Suppose there are 2 games A and B. Game A has 600k players who only play 1 hour a day, slightly higher then an average gamer does and Game B has 150k players who play 8 hours a day. What does it mean?

Well, on an average day, we will see Game A with an average of 25k players online while Game B will see a 50k player average.

Which game has the bigger active population? Of course, Game A has 4 times the actual population of Game B although some unofficial tools from an unofficial source will show Game B has twice as many "concurrent players" than Game A.


Suppose there are 2 games, A and B. Game A has 480k players who play 1 hour a day.
Game B has 900k players who play 2 hours a day.

Well, on an average day, we will see Game A with an average of 20k players online, while Game B will see a 75k average. Which game has the bigger active population? Of course, Game B has over twice as many times the population of Game A, despite Game B playing for longer each day, and also in spite of the delusional cries of Game A's sycophants. ;)
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06-Aug-2018 22:09:03

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:


Hey look, taken directly from the homepage. I'll let you figure it out on your own. I even did the scary math for ya!


Stop lying to yourself. You know very well from your last post that the "supposition" of how many hours your so called "concurrent players" in Game B can mean totally different things for the actual population of Game B.

To further your argument, please show how many hours do these OSRS players play on the average in an average day first. And don't forget to show the source. Don't just tell us it was "2 hours". It can be 8 hours, 24 hours, or if you really insist... 1 hour. But regardless, without any extra information, your argument is totally, absolutely, completely, 100% discredited, shattered and destroyed already. :D:D:D:D:D:D


We're not dealing with suppositions, which you started with. We're dealing with facts. The fact is, OSRS is growing, and RS3 is stagnating, as numbers on the official Jagex homepage clearly state, and as the interview with the CEO clearly shows where the growth is coming from. There's no indication that playtimes between OSRS and RS3 are any different, so any claims that they are different require the burden of proof. The average player doesn't play runescape, so to call upon some arbitrary poll from some no-name website claiming players average 1 hour a day is irrelevant.

So until you provide some sort of proof that OSRS players play longer than RS3, it seems we'll just have to come to the conclusion that players of both games play approximately the same amount of time, lending credence to the clear truth that OSRS is simply more popular. After all, shouldn't RS3 be filled with people working long hours for their runepass?
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06-Aug-2018 23:47:21

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Miu said:
Dilbert2001 said:


Hey look, taken directly from the homepage. I'll let you figure it out on your own. I even did the scary math for ya!


The facts in question can be found at the top of any runescape.com webpage. Hope this clears things up for you!


Yes, the fact and only fact that is shown on the top of any runescape.com webpage is just the current number of Jagex playes, not their total population. That we all know and has been clarified by Jmod Rowley.

https://i.redditmedia.com/ti9vhhVvaPhd7RyreyTWYcWdrnJ8hy0JKyox4mjrr98.png?s=a5e834fa27ea36c3c1806972f21a56c9


Stop strawmanning. No one ever claimed concurrent players were the total population.
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07-Aug-2018 00:02:49

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
TH is not going to be removed for the very obvious $$$ reason.
TH is not the sole form of microtransactions revenue, yet it's the one that has the heaviest impact on the game in terms of content and "integrity." If jagex wants to see active players rise up, then TH is the one to go. It's all a matter of what's worth more. A few whales, or an active playerbase. Currently Jagex is opting for the former, but it cannot last forever.

Dilbert2001 said:
TH is obviously still going and everybody can see in game. Mark your calendar.

Jagex is actually making TH a better and better deal by the week. This week, we see Prismania being upgraded with bonus xp in the last 2 days.

A week or 2 earlier, Umbral Chests made debuted alongside TH keys
Have they? I didn't notice. Seems Jagex has no longer been posting in the Treasure Hunter forums, nor have they posted treasure hunter updates on the main page in over a month. Seems like they finally realized that aggressive MTX is a bad look. Of course, they're still addicted to that pay2win $, but it's a small step.
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09-Aug-2018 21:55:50

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Alpha Trion said:
I actually came on the forums because I don't see Treasure Hunter plastered EVERYWHERE all over the home page.

That is refreshing and nice actually.


Treasure Hunter is like wanting to go to my favorite restaurant, that I had gone for years, and having to slog through endless rows of slot machines-just to enjoy what I once had. Or going to your favorite restaurant every day and having to refuse an advertisement for a casino that's shoved in your face.



I really dislike TH. But I stopped complaining about it, and just play other games now.

I used to play this game a ton. But TH is just repulsive. It makes me want to run away every time I see some gigantic monetization window appear.

I haven't logged in a while, I'm betting I am still forced to see the treasure hunter dialogue box every new day. Why can't that be toggled off?


Agreed. I just wonder if the lack of announcements is their new policy going forward, in an attempt to avoid backlash, or if it's just during this content drought so it doesn't look like TH has been the only update bigger than a patch for a while.
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10-Aug-2018 16:12:15

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
"I just wonder if the lack of announcements is their new policy going forward, in an attempt to avoid backlash, or if it's just during this content drought so it doesn't look like TH has been the only update bigger than a patch for a while."

New policy? I think it is more like new marketing tactics. There are only a handful of players in the forums. It is a lot more worthwhile to shift the marketing focus to attract the players who actually play the game. That's why you see not just the original login GUI but also the In-Game-Calendar with TH promotions well documented on it.

I don't think TH is ever meant to be a "big update". You can see from the size of the product team. It is a small effort with big, really big return game content. Good idea for Jagex obviously.

There is no "content drought" regarding TH neither. Boneyard, released in June, is a new TH promotion. There have also been patches to TH offers too, like the Double Dragon Chests have found their ways into the Mysteria Promo, and Primania saw the last 2 days of the event rewarding extra XP the last 2 promo too.


I was discussing the Runescape homepage, not the forum.
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10-Aug-2018 16:37:21 - Last edited on 10-Aug-2018 16:38:50 by Miu

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eeping said:
The problem with removing Th at this point in the game is that it's been in the game far too long.

Yes that includes the SoF too, they've taken their tole on the game and have already given an unfair advantage to many players, for example allowing famous youtuber A Friend to max with ease.

Many others may have also done this.

Meaning any new players will be at a disadvantage.

No support.


And how long were rat pits in the game before they were removed? How about that halloween event that ended up being some of the fastest XP in the game, why aren't you complaining about new players being disadvantaged since that's no longer around? If you acknowledge it's an unfair advantage, then it only makes sense to get rid of it.

Besides, new players at a disadvantage is far better than a lack of new players at all.
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25-Aug-2018 17:18:14

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Draco Burnz said:
Example, IMO comp cape is unfair so it should be removed right with your logic?
Pay attention to context, we're talking in terms of unfair advantages. If comp cape was only available for a limited time, then you might have a point.
But as you yourself stated:
Draco Burnz said:
You're pretty much comparing apples to oranges at this point.


Anyway the intention was that the person I originally quoted acknowledged it as a problem, but felt it had to stay just because it's been around too long. If the game is bleeding, are you just going to let it continue to do so, or do you stauch the flow?
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25-Aug-2018 22:46:23

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18-Oct-2018 19:37:09

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18-Oct-2018 19:39:30

Miu

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Fortunately, Jagex has finally provided us with some evidence :D And we can finally put to rest some faulty assumptions some have used to argue that RS3 somehow has a higher playerbase than OSRS.

http://file.finance.sina.com.cn/211.154.219.97:9494/MRGG/CNSESH_STOCK/2018/2018-6/2018-06-02/4491886.PDF

According to this, both runescapes have a total of ~765,400 members.

According to the Runefest OSRS presentation, OSRS has 550,000 members.


OSRS accounts for 70% of the total membership.
RS3 accounts for 30%.

94k concurrent players total as of right now.
68k on OSRS. 26k RS3.

72% of the concurrent playercount is OSRS.
28% of the concurrent playercount is RS3.

Is this consistent with our findings using the active playercount? Absolutely, a margin of difference of only 2%, which could be attributed to bots if you wish.

So
70% of the playerbase is OSRS in both concurrent playerbase and in total subscribers.
But only 30% RS3?
Why?

Probably TH. You can debate that. But you can no longer believe or debate that RS3 somehow is more popular through pitiful mental gymnastics, lest you ignore mod rowley and the rest of Jagex :D
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18-Oct-2018 20:46:19 - Last edited on 18-Oct-2018 20:51:06 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Fortunately, Jagex has finally provided us with some evidence :D And we can finally put to rest some faulty assumptions some have used to argue that RS3 somehow has a higher playerbase than OSRS.

http://file.finance.sina.com.cn/211.154.219.97:9494/MRGG/CNSESH_STOCK/2018/2018-6/2018-06-02/4491886.PDF

According to this, both runescapes have a total of ~765,400 members.

According to the Runefest OSRS presentation, OSRS has 550,000 members.


OSRS accounts for 70% of the total membership.
RS3 accounts for 30%.

94k concurrent players total as of right now.
68k on OSRS. 26k RS3.

72% of the concurrent playercount is OSRS.
28% of the concurrent playercount is RS3.

Is this consistent with our findings using the active playercount? Absolutely, a margin of difference of only 2%, which could be attributed to bots if you wish.

So
70% of the playerbase is OSRS in both concurrent playerbase and in total subscribers.
But only 30% RS3?
Why?

Probably TH. You can debate that. But you can no longer believe or debate that RS3 somehow is more popular through pitiful mental gymnastics, lest you ignore mod rowley and the rest of Jagex :D


OSRS members are RS3 members too. They can also play RS3 too. Being OSRS "members" don't exclude them from being RS3 members. Your numbers still show absolutely nothing about RS3 members.


We know which game is more popular. Thanks.
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19-Oct-2018 06:00:37

Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Not just sharing the same membership plan, the 550k "OSRS" members don't mean they don't play RS3. Suppose there are 9 RS3 forum users but only 1 for OSRS now, it definitely doesn't mean there are 9 times RS3 forum users to OSRS.

And without these "daily events", RS3 would have like 3 main updates the next 12 months instead of 7 main updates just in this next 3 month Winter season. Also, the RS3 content team would be down to like 20 members instead of 75 now.


550k OSRS members don't mean they don't play RS3.

That's what the concurrent player count is for. 70% of the online users are OSRS.
70% of total membership is OSRS.

137k /r/runescape subscribers
2,300 online.

255k /r/2007scape subscribers
8,600 online.

OSRS is larger by every conceivable metric, as has been proven by Jagex's own statistics, community population tracking, financial reports, reddit population and subscriber count, and even the homepage. Apologies that this seems to invalidate your fanfiction and strawman arguments.

Now, are you going to continue making faulty assumptions so you can try to pretend RS3 is more popular? Or are you going to address the issues that are causing RS3 to hemorrhage its playerbase?

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19-Oct-2018 17:14:16

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Keep spamming the same unofficial Jagex "source" doesn't mean a thing, especially when it contracts your original post that the Jagex OSRS team's claim of 550k OSRS members.

137k + 255k = 392k subscribers only according to your latest post, way way way way way x 9000 below the 550k from the Jagex OSRS team and the 765k from the official Fukong 2017 Financial report.
You appear to be very confused. Reddit subscribers are simply a metric of popularity or discussion. I didn't claim they represented Runescape subscribers. Those are different things.

Dilbert2001 said:
Meanwhile, the actual official Jagex Seasonal Overall Hiscores show:
34,292 OSRS players
280,159 RS3 players

https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore_oldschool_seasonal/overall.ws?category_type=0

https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore/ranking?category_type=0&table=0&time_filter=2&date=1539966739881&page=11206
LMAO those are deadman seasonals. There are 35k OSRS players in an alternate gamemode for OSRS. That would be like comparing the Dimension of the Damned hiscores. You're comparing apples and broccoli, buddy. Or santa and the easter bunny, which you like to bring up so much. Again, strawman, deflect, irrelevant, spam.
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19-Oct-2018 17:36:39 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 17:37:53 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
You never said Reddit or whatever. You simply said "Runescape subscription".

"137k /r/runescape subscribers
2,300 online.

255k /r/2007scape subscribers
8,600 online."


/r/ indicates a subreddit. This is doubly made obvious as there's no ambiguity in 2007scape, which is not a runescape game, but a subreddit. Do i have to spoonfeed you?

Dilbert2001 said:
The OSRS Deadman Seasonal Hiscore is here:

"https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore_oldschool_deadman/c=eIb7hW0A49k/overall.ws?category_type=0

Even with the key OSRS Deadman event running, the entire duration only drew 288,378 players. Meanwhile, in not even 2/3 of the month of October, RS3 already tallied about the same number of players. :D


You're scrambling to the OSRS hiscores to bring up irrelevancies that you don't even understand. There's two deadman hiscores, one for the main server, and one for seasonals. You're comparing a gamemode that many people don't even play... to RS3 seasonal hiscores which run for a limited time. There is no OSRS seasonal hiscore in the same vein as RS3's. You are immensely confused.

None of which is on-topic.
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19-Oct-2018 17:57:26 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 18:16:07 by Miu

Miu

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Blackwing said:
Miu said:
Fortunately, Jagex has finally provided us with some evidence :D And we can finally put to rest some faulty assumptions some have used to argue that RS3 somehow has a higher playerbase than OSRS.

http://file.finance.sina.com.cn/211.154.219.97:9494/MRGG/CNSESH_STOCK/2018/2018-6/2018-06-02/4491886.PDF

According to this, both runescapes have a total of ~765,400 members.

According to the Runefest OSRS presentation, OSRS has 550,000 members.


OSRS accounts for 70% of the total membership.
RS3 accounts for 30%.

94k concurrent players total as of right now.
68k on OSRS. 26k RS3.

72% of the concurrent playercount is OSRS.
28% of the concurrent playercount is RS3.

Is this consistent with our findings using the active playercount? Absolutely, a margin of difference of only 2%, which could be attributed to bots if you wish.

So
70% of the playerbase is OSRS in both concurrent playerbase and in total subscribers.
But only 30% RS3?
Why?

Probably TH. You can debate that. But you can no longer believe or debate that RS3 somehow is more popular through pitiful mental gymnastics, lest you ignore mod rowley and the rest of Jagex :D

Idk how you found that PDF, but yeah, it does paint the picture that OSRS isn't just doing better for the online player counter, but for the member count as well. Doesn't surprise me at all tbh: P2W games might do well short term, but in the long term, game integrity is what makes a successful game, for which the RS3/OSRS comparison is a testament. > )

Cheers!

The PDF is courtesy of dilbert :)
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19-Oct-2018 18:00:38

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
So reverting back to spamming the same 550k "OSRS" members and try to pretend all of them don't play RS3?

Too bad,
real life live official Runecape Hiscores
show otherwise.

Want to see
more real life live official Runecape Hiscores
?

What about Clue Scrolls? For instance, elite clues?

220,480 RS3 players
198,915 OSRS players


https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore_oldschool/c=JHkm5A2pFgs/overall.ws?category_type=1

https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore/c=myAAXdAQ9sk/ranking?category_type=1&table=30&time_filter=0&date=1539969187529&page=8820

Where did all those OSRS "players" go? Strawman eat them? :D:D:D


Hilarious cherrypicked hiscores. If you go to easy clue scrolls, you get well over 250k OSRS players, vs 180k RS3 players.

It's even more hilarious when you realize that the
RS3 clue scroll hiscores also include nonmembers
....

So the numbers you're comparing to, really have zero relevance at all to subscriber count, membership count, or concurrent players. Those numbers, which are factual, show a clear trend. You can fiddle with the hiscores all you want until it spits out the numbers you want, but that won't make RS3 any more popular. Now get back on topic, please.
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19-Oct-2018 18:27:10 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 18:27:54 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
ELITE STACK said:
Rs3 hiscores have 420k+ in the runescore hiscores needing at least 500 runescore but Hiscores don't mean anything.


Neither does 550k "OSRS" members mean anything to RS3 members since any or all of those 550k "OSRS" members can be active players in RS3 too.


but they're not active. At least, not playing now :)

Sure, they can be "subscribed" to both games. But there's obvious a clear favorite based on how many more are playing OSRS.
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19-Oct-2018 18:28:18 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 18:28:57 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Show proof the RS3 members are not active but the OSRS "members" are always "active" please. At least, we all know we don' thave 550k "OSRS" "members" playing now.

Review this post. Or visit oldschool.runescape.com and subtract the OSRS number from the number at the top of this page to get the concurrent RS3 players.

Miu said:
That's what the concurrent player count is for. 70% of the online users are OSRS.
70% of total membership is OSRS.

137k /r/runescape subscribers
2,300 online.

255k /r/2007scape subscribers
8,600 online.

OSRS is larger by every conceivable metric, as has been proven by Jagex's own statistics, community population tracking, financial reports, reddit population and subscriber count, and even the homepage. Apologies that this seems to invalidate your fanfiction and strawman arguments.

Now, are you going to continue making faulty assumptions so you can try to pretend RS3 is more popular? Or are you going to address the issues that are causing RS3 to hemorrhage its playerbase?

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19-Oct-2018 18:35:55 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 18:36:38 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
You are spamming the same unofficial data over and over and over 9000 times again. They don't show total RS3 and OSRS population. And you even admitted the "Runescape Subscribers" are actually Reddit forum users,
not to be mistaken with actual real life active Runescape players in the games and Hiscores of RS3 and OSRS
.


There's nothing unofficial about the numbers at the top of the screen, dilbert.

First you say that the numbers are somehow "fake" or "unofficial." Then once proven, you say that it doesn't represent the total number of runescape subscribers, which is about 765k according to the quarterly. Then Jagex releases the subscriber numbers for OSRS, which is 550k.

Then you compare seasonals, not even knowing what those highscores represent in OSRS, which is a variant of deadman mode which isn't even active at the moment.

Now what? You're not convinced OSRS is more popular because they didn't do enough elite clue scrolls? Oh, but OSRS did more easy clue scrolls than RS3, so let's not mention that.

Then you conflate /r/runescape with Runescape subscribers. I know you use reddit, so I can only assume this is a deliberate misrepresentation in bad faith.

Just stop moving the goalposts and just get back on topic, please.
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19-Oct-2018 18:47:00 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 18:54:01 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
So I heard people whining crying about Alice being in the game is bad but look not too far away, now we even have Nic physically in the game selling TH items for Alice. Does it bother anybody? I don't think so at all. :D:D:D


Of course it's bothering people. That's why people are turning to OSRS instead of RS3, which accounts for 70% of the subscribers and 70% of the concurrent players.
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19-Oct-2018 19:13:31

Miu

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Blackwing said:
Miu said:
137k /r/runescape subscribers
2,300 online.

255k /r/2007scape subscribers
8,600 online.

I think it should also be added that /r/runescape was created on April 2009, whilst r/2007scape was created on February 2013, so the RS3 subreddit has had roughly 4 more years time to accumulate subscribers, and probably has more "dead" subscribers too (people that have stayed subbed but don't care about the subscription anymore, such as people quitting to OSRS or completely; I don't know how big of a problem dead subs are on Reddit overall, but on Youtube many old channels have enormous subscriber numbers in comparison to the actual views on new videos that they get anymore, even if the channel only focuses around one type of videos), which would explain why OSRS's subreddit is so many times more active, even though they're only about twice the size in subscriber count.

(Inb4 "half of the people active on OSRS's subreddit are bots!".)

---

And yeah, like Miu explained, there is no hiscore for OSRS that works similarly to RS3's weekly/monthly exp hiscores. I wish there was, but until/if that happens, comparing to a harsh PvP game mode that most OSRS players don't care about is comic at best.


Miu said:
The PDF is courtesy of dilbert :)

Oh, I didn't expect people to still play themselves. > )


It happens more often than you think ;)
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28-Oct-2018 22:05:36

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01-Nov-2018 23:44:13

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Told you again, my "statement" was meant to address to Miu's false claim that Reddit "subscribers" have anything to do with Jagex's actual playerbase and profits on Page 73, Post3. I even told him that was not what OP wanted to discuss way way back from his very 1st post.

You just jumped in, but again it is still the same thing... Reddit or whatever fansite/social network "subscriber" numbers are not related to Jagex's own players, let alone profits, and therefore has no meaning to why TH should or should not be removed. :D


We've already gone over this. My claim wasn't that Reddit subscribers mean that OSRS has a higher playerbase. The playerbase numbers itself do, and the OSRS is merely supporting evidence. It's not the claim itself. Please don't misrepresent what I've said, and then make a false argument against it.

Miu said:
There's nothing unofficial about the numbers at the top of the screen, dilbert.

First you say that the numbers are somehow "fake" or "unofficial." Then once proven, you say that it doesn't represent the total number of runescape subscribers, which is about 765k according to the quarterly. Then Jagex releases the subscriber numbers for OSRS, which is 550k.

Then you compare seasonals, not even knowing what those highscores represent in OSRS, which is a variant of deadman mode which isn't even active at the moment.

Now what? You're not convinced OSRS is more popular because they didn't do enough elite clue scrolls? Oh, but OSRS did more easy clue scrolls than RS3, so let's not mention that.

I can only assume this is a deliberate misrepresentation in bad faith.
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26-Nov-2018 18:07:06

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu,

Necroing your own post without adding anything new certainly won't help your case.
It's relevant because you still have yet to refute it. Whining about it being brought up certainly won't help your case.

Dilbert2001 said:
Current Player Online is not the total playerbase as everybody knows.
I never claimed it as such, as you very well know.

Dilbert2001 said:
OSRS have 550k members doesn't mean those 550k members don't play RS3. And you even showed your "proof" from an edited graph shown in OSRS Runefest. Whoever uploaded that graph changed Runescape Members on the x-axis to "OSRS Members".
Edited by who? Tell me which Jmod edited the graph.

Dilbert2001 said:
BTW, the completely factual information about active RS3 members can be easily seen from the Hiscores/Achievements here:

https://secure.runescape.com/m=hiscore/c=kPNj44I7nGc/ranking?category_type=1&table=26&time_filter=0&date=1543260133483&page=24960

Those over 620,000 RS3 unique players are all active since they had to log in RS3 to get listed on Hiscores and Achievements Hiscores only started in September 2018.
We're discussing active MEMBERS. The Highscores and Achivement Hiscores from 2018 includes any FREE PLAYER that has logged on since then. Once again, you try to compare apples and oranges, to support your cherrypicked data.
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09-Dec-2018 17:37:23

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
The real OSRS graph showed Members, not "OSRS Members" on the horizontal axis. They did not say all 550k members are only OSRS but not RS3 members.


Yes. The OSRS graph displayed at the OSRS presentation refers to members of OSRS. Is there some potential overlap between members of RS3 and OSRS? Of course.

However, Just like OSRS members makes up the bulk of total members, and just like OSRS makes up over 75% of concurrent players, and just like how OSRS is more popular on twitch and reddit, OSRS possesses the larger playerbase.

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of an argument. These bits and pieces are supporting evidence of the fact that OSRS is more popular. Misreading things like reddit subscribers don't refute that. Cherrypicked highscore examples don't refute that. The shortest path between two points is a straight line. If the concurrent players are higher, and the number of members are higher from Jagex's own data and financial reports, then clearly OSRS is the more popular game. Even if the reddit subscribers or twitch views weren't higher in OSRS, it wouldn't change that fact. That's why your nonsensical claims about the highscores are a non-argument, and ultimately irrelevant.

I don't care which game is more popular. That doesn't matter to me. I've looked at the facts and came to the obvious conclusion. If RS3 was more popular, I'd be happy for them. But the state of the game is at one of its lowest, as population numbers show.

You seem to have come to a conclusion before assessing the facts, "RS3 is more popular!" and have resorted to blatant cherrypicking. You may as well be arguing that RS3 is more popular because it has more players on the divination highscores. In fact, that would probably be a better argument than continuously misrepresenting my posts.
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09-Dec-2018 21:58:51 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2018 21:59:37 by Miu

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
This is the official OSRS Runefest video put up by Jagex in Youtube. At 2:51, it clearly shows the graph without even a world of OSRS, "Old School" or 2007scape Membership on it. The graph you put up was edited:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET1IazCLsG0

You do realize I left the video title up and the timestamp up deliberately? You know, so people could find it, if they needed to. Congratulations on stepping up from misrepresenting my statements, to misrepresenting the video I've posted. I won't be entertaining the rest of your conspiracy theories, but here's the video for you to review at your leisure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaKUSR5N63c
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09-Dec-2018 22:49:37 - Last edited on 09-Dec-2018 22:51:34 by Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
The voice was not from Jmod Mat K. He did not repeat what Mat K said, which was simply "last year we had 450,000 members. We have 550,000 members this year". The graph also does not show OSRS.
Moving the goalposts. It's a jmod voice. No, it's not Mod Mat K, thanks. The graph clearly shows OSRS, hence why it's recordbreaking, and why it references OSRS updates. It's an official Jagex video, if you have an issue, take it up with them, or Mod Mat K since you want to hear his voice so much.

Dilbert2001 said:
More importantly, all your misrepresentations, including financial data from Fukong Interactive shows no specific RS3 membership information whatsoever.
Once again, you're attempting to refute claims I haven't made. Financial report states the total membership, which is how we deduce the RS3 membership, by subtracting OSRS from the total.

Why aren't there lists for each specific game on the financial report? Because to the investors it doesn't matter which game people are playing. Membership money is primarily from OSRS, that much is obvious.

Why does Jagex list both games at the top of the screen, instead of RS3? Because it looks bad when a game from 10 years earlier does better than your current game.

You love making comparisons to other MMOs, so to further clarify, the reason blizzard no longer lists their subscriber count: because it looks bad. Jagex isn't going to report the pathetic RS3 playerbase when it'll look bad to the investors.
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09-Dec-2018 23:10:35

Miu

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King Tumeken said:
I think TH will fade, though. The gamble isn't even worth it. Runescape is doing really well with profits right now though. Not surprised. I think it's mostly because of bonds and runecoins , not TH because I refuse to believe people are that desperately. . ... in need, that they go ham on TH with their money in comparison to, how they would with bonds and rune coins.

You are very misinformed.
Miu said:
Breakdown of Jagex's 2017 Revenue from official financial Fukong Financial Report:

TH: £22.42 mil = 49.7%
Runecoin: £2.48 mil = 5.5%
Bond: £20.19 mil = 44.7%
MTX profit total: £45.09 = 100%


King Tumeken said:
I just told you how it did. So really, now you can see how it does makes sense why an older, crappier version of this game is more popular.

Runescape needs an entirely new REMASTERING so it could be COMPARABLE to a modern game like we have today. Otherwise, what? This dies, and OS stays around on mobile?


Again, misinformed. You assume change is synonymous with progress, when change into regression is also possible. EoC was, and still is, a watered down and generic combat system for MMOs. It abandoned the principles of what made runescape enjoyable and tried to appeal to the mass market. Tried.

Compare fallout 4 and 76, for example. ;)

I do agree that Runescape needs a remastering, though. We're well overdue for another combat overhaul.
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19-Dec-2018 09:32:44

Miu

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King Tumeken said:
No, no, no, no... please, don't do this! Ahaha. .

I made one assumption. I can't be "misinformed" on an opinion :P


I made an opinion, I made no references; I made no statements with facts or reinforced evidence.


I am not here to debate, or to read statistics and perform a valid analysis. I'm not here to argue. I don't want Treasure Hunter to go :(



So, when you agree that this game needs a REMASTERING you agree with my only point I made, with evidence and a reinforced statement ;)
I am glad though, because if anything, that IS what needs to be done. Jagex needs to take a risk, and go to the bank and get a good loan. I'm not Zeus, but I feel strongly that this game, REMASTERED like Today's Games, would attract new players like crazy. In fact, this could easily become the best game out there if they did so. Runescape offers tons of Freedom, that it's almost like every game inside of one - but it's click-play.

The value of bonds and runecoins together may hardly equal up to the amount of Keys being bought, but I did not make a point on the matter, I made an opinion. I still fail even after reading the evidence you gave me, to believe people pay more for Keys than they do for Coins and Bonds together :P

Lastly, I didn't compare Runescape to Fallout or other MMO's. I compared it to Oldschool and Classic. To say it's not an improvement in graphics or combat would be absurd.

There are so many forums it's hard to stay focused on one, but I hope this settled any miscommunication. Cheers and have a good one!


Apologies if I got a little aggressive there. Yeah I understand what you were trying to say now.
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20-Dec-2018 07:59:45

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
OP created this thread more than 16 months ago but obviously he is still playing actively in this game as he recent busy activity logs shows. Congrats to the WC milestone anyway. :)

Obviously, TH is just a game feature of Runescape. Even people who cried against TH don't seem to be really bothered by TH. Otherwise they wouldn't have bought Gold Premier Club membership again.

Yes, as OP wrote in Post 3 of Page 63 in this thread:

"OP certainly didnt remove himself, just focused on other pressing issues elsewhere. "


Certainly Runescape has a lot of attractive and addicting pressing issues not named TH that even TH "haters" are willing to spend money and time on. :)


This thread is about TH, not OP's highscores or membership status. Playing the game doesn't mean you condone TH in any way, so you may as well drop whatever you're trying to insinuate.
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23-Dec-2018 08:31:50

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
All players, not necessarily OP only, still play RS3 even if they don't like TH therefore there is no reason to "remove it".


"All RS3 Players play Runescape."


Could you say anything more obvious? Yes, by definition, RS3 players play Runescape.
"Therefore there is no reason to remove it."
Dwindling players isn't a reason to remove it? If a small userbase is the goal of TH, then yes, I suppose it has been successful and should be kept in place to keep people from playing RS3.

I want RS3 to succeed, more than just in retaining its most addicted players. That's why TH needs to be removed.
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24-Dec-2018 00:12:32

Miu

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Dilbert2001 said:
Miu said:
Can we please keep this thread on topic? There's already a thread up about the state of the industry at large, we don't need to keep making allusions and false comparisons to other games.


Hmm... I see a lot of people have already made comparisons to other games, starting with WoW comparisons from page 5, post 1 ...and on Page 9, post 7, user Miu replied to somebody's WoW comparison...

There are countless comparisons to different games all over these 78 page and growing thread, with user Miu gain, quoting articles related to a bunch of different games such as Forza 7 on Page 19, post 7. :D:D:D

Hmm... obviously Skull-Inky was not the first one who talked about Activision games or trying to keep making allusions and false comparisons to other games.


Congratulations, are you ready to move on from that now?
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15-Jan-2019 06:20:44

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