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The Fundamental Problem

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Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Ok, I'll preface this post by personally saying- Overall as a whole- that the Mining and Smithing rework is fantastic. You guys have done an awesome job at evaluating these 2 skills in terms of usefulness, impact, "feel", everything really. Creating use out of a skill such as smithing that had been waysided by power creep. Making mining and smithing scale with levels- creating options for players while still not overriding demand on core PvM drops. Making Melee Power Armor that better scales through its set effect for bossing that prework would have otherwise been "impossible", far too challenging, or was just generally ignored due to better means available (I.E. Magic/Ranged).I mean honestly I could create a huge list of what makes it right.

The problem that I see, however, is NOT how these skills impact current PvM- but how they impact surrounding skills. It would certainly be a different matter altogether if the rework took into every consideration that smithing itself impacts (which would be fletching, in some manners crafting) but the most impacted skill by far would have to be Invention. I wouldn't be ignorant enough to believe that there wasn't any consideration on its part- I mean you went as far as to create salvage items (that clearly are there for more than just "High Alch" drops, and even going as far to update the spring cleaner with it), but I can't help but to feel as if there was a huge oversight on this part as well.

What I mean by this specifically as the damage it seems to have created in (VERY) specialized instances. For example, we'll look at a couple of components. The first I will demonstrate is
Direct Components
.

21-Feb-2019 06:23:55

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Direct components have always been a "difficult" or expensive material to muster up. They have a very limited table, and the items that were "made" or found to get these components are virtually non-existent- i'd even go as far as to say generally speaking, if you were crafting these things to sell, level up with, or break down, you were usually taking astronomical losses from it- far far beyond that of any other "uncommon" component. Lets take a list of what these Items are/were:

-Pickaxes (Cost analysis calculator)
-Spears and hastae (Cost analysis calculator)
-Cannonballs (Cost analysis calculator)
-Blunt salvage (Cost analysis calculator) <---Created in rework
-Battleaxes (Cost analysis calculator)
-Gizmos and relics

So here were delve into a serious problem; these items generally aren't created even pre-work. These items also aren't atypical drops. Pickaxes? Spears and Hastae? Battleaxes? Lol. Maybe rune ones. Those are being alched, or if they were being salvaged at incredible "losses". For that 25k if sold or alched, they could have easily went out and "Bought" 10 steel battleaxes, had 10 chances at at 61% chance for junk- or 1 chance at 37% junk - to ultimately attempt to get direct components. Unfortunately while I can't pull prior numbers, this works out to be ~57k per direct component via steel Baxes, or ~175k per direct component via rune Baxes. 300% difference. Blah Blah blah, very specialized scenario- people will generally always take the cheaper solution anyways, right- and you certainly can't expect to balance such a vast, dynamic library of items to have ultimately near or equivalent values- and I'm certainly not dense enough to believe or expect that either.

But that's where we run into the CORE problem. Speaking post rework, Steel battleaxes are not created. Spears? Not created. It took me ~12 minute to make an inventory out of curiosity. Ok, so functionally spe

21-Feb-2019 06:24:05 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 06:39:07 by Cynikull

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Well, that's ok and all, but I'm not sure if that was completely and thoroughly examined, especially considering lower levels trying to skill up invention, or get some "nice" perks on their items such as biting. It also has created a void in general speaking of your more common parts that otherwise were able to steadily come in from your "garbage" items created.

Ultimately, I feel as if anyone creates a new character, sure, they won't know any better- they're going to pay XXX to get this perk, these parts, whatever. As a vetted player, however, I know better. And if the inflation had been a reasonable amount, I probably wouldn't be here right now typing this post. If parts weren't harder and harder to come by for some of the even "consumable" invention items, we wouldn't be here. But this is where we are now, and I feel like we have quite a ways to go from where we are currently to better rectify and resolve this general void that's now been created, and as time progresses, I think this will only escalate.
Please, I understand that this was a very specific example I gave, but this honestly encompasses such a wide array of other items, other parts, other drops, and salvage is just not near close enough or equitable resolve to this fundamental problem
. The worst part about salvage under rune is that for the most part, they are just not obtainable on the GE- no one sells them as either they have a spring cleaner and/or are already dismantling themselves- but even then the "good" dismantled parts were already a very rare drop to find to begin with (I.*. not many monsters dropping battleaxes etc.)

I feel as if your team at Jagex has done a freaking phenomenal job at creating invention, your reworks. How many problems they ultimately solve and fix over how many they created is unbelievable. You've created money funnels, created use out of otherwise "junk" items, sparked demand on even older content... Truly astonishing.

21-Feb-2019 06:24:14 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 06:53:13 by Cynikull

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'll just wrap up with this;
There are many ways to resolve this. Some far more simple than others.
Your team is unbelievable, imaginative, creative, and seem to have a far better grasp of MMO economies than you did 10 years ago ( I swear to god when I was 18 I could have single-handedly resolved more issues than your entire team could, and now that we can objectively observe some of the choices that were made- god they were awful. Little to no grasp of impact, balancing, etc.). That's a far different story today. You know what you're doing, so I don't feel as if I even need to suggest these, but its a good starting point, and I'll keep them super simplistic as they really don't need explanation or need to be poked holes in- they're merely a start in the right direction:

1.) Much, much faster smithing times for items below a certain threshold, say below Mithril, adamant, steel, whatever that may be. You can keep the current feel and appeal of "actual" smithing with your items that actually require "artisan" or expert level crafting. Your necro, your bane, your Elder Rune, etc. Just ultimately these lower tiers are meant to be just that. Cheap metals, cheap manufacturing, you're inexperienced at creating them- it makes sense. Even more sensibly is the fact that at high levels of smithing, these items should be able to be produced in much higher volume. This will cetainly need fine tuning as you don't want this to be a "primary" and prefered way to level, but again, a start.

2.) Expanding your salvage drops. Some salvage such as "Bladed" and "Plated" appear at astronomically higher rates than your "Blunted" or "Spiky". This was merely done because the items the monsters dropped prior correlated with these fields- I get that aspect, but since creating the void in mass produced items, this has evidently dramatically created higher need for these items.


I hope your team looks into this and I certainly look forward to future content. Thanks!

21-Feb-2019 06:24:21 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 07:02:57 by Cynikull

Rikornak
Oct Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 5,378Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Actually - I like it. Your suggestion 1 is reasonable. It manages to keep the best of both worlds, but...

- For balancing reasons it should be a) optional and b) offer drastically reduced xp (e.g. only 10 % xp per bar). I could highly imagine if it were to abide to progress mechanic with the very same xp rewards it could become as a training method much, much better than it is supposed to be.

As for your second suggestion: It might be worth reviewing monsters that dropped bars previously (or for the sake of simplicity just monsters that took an hard hit with the rework) and replace parts of the spirits dropped by salvage - preferably more exotic ones.
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

21-Feb-2019 07:36:30

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Thank you for the feedback =) I certainly appreciate that you took the time to thoroughly read through and check out some (reasonable) alterations across the board that would immediately relieve some of the stress placed on aspects of invention, while holding the intent of post-rework smithing.

I believe with your suggestion, that would be a fine way to tune it to better accustom and acclimate global pricing in a way that wouldn't be such a "shock" factor that has currently been placed on it.

As for whether 1 is completely viable or not, I still pretty strongly feel that salvage is not quite in the correct spot regardless of whether some interpretation of 1 is put into place. As you stated, the "exotic" drops now place a pretty remarkable cap and hard funnel on mats such as:

Spiked
Crafted <--- Although this one is found in many other areas, lightly impacted
Light
Precise <---Also found in many reasonable areas in other categories of items, lightly impact
Swift <--Hugely affected negatively
Direct <--Also largely impacted
Stunning

As these are the categories that "Blunt" & "Spiky" salvage are found in.



Again, thank you for the feedback!

21-Feb-2019 08:05:20 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 08:13:23 by Cynikull

Rikornak
Oct Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Rikornak

Posts: 5,378Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
CuddleBucket said:
What about making salvage smithable?

It would take 5 ticks to make (3s) & cost 2 bars for tiny, up to 10 bars for huge.


Those numbers are horribly balanced. Including my two postings from your thread in here:

10 rune bars for the equivalent of 40k is still a bad joke.

A rune bar has an alch value of 250 coins - so to be fitted in the formula it needs to be 32 bars per size (since it's 8k coins per size) - so 160 bars for an huge item.

Next balancing problem: XP needs to be drastically cut per bar.

Let's say a huge salvage uses 160 bars (it just can't be less due to the alch value): 160 rune bars are normally worth 38400 xp (or 240 per bar), so something working could be cutting the xp by 100 - giving 384 xp per salvage smithed - considering the speed you suggested. It still would be faster than regular smithing, but likely much more expensive (as I highly doubt rune bars will ever drop close to those 250 coins alch value)
Improvements: Tooltip / (F2P) QoL v2
Quick Fixes: Invention

21-Feb-2019 18:18:13 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 18:19:32 by Rikornak

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
CuddleBucket said:
What about making salvage smithable?

It would take 5 ticks to make (3s) & cost 2 bars for tiny, up to 10 bars for huge.


Those numbers are horribly balanced. Including my two postings from your thread in here:

10 rune bars for the equivalent of 40k is still a bad joke.

A rune bar has an alch value of 250 coins - so to be fitted in the formula it needs to be 32 bars per size (since it's 8k coins per size) - so 160 bars for an huge item.

Next balancing problem: XP needs to be drastically cut per bar.

Let's say a huge salvage uses 160 bars (it just can't be less due to the alch value): 160 rune bars are normally worth 38400 xp (or 240 per bar), so something working could be cutting the xp by 100 - giving 384 xp per salvage smithed - considering the speed you suggested. It still would be faster than regular smithing, but likely much more expensive (as I highly doubt rune bars will ever drop close to those 250 coins alch value)


Very thoroughly put out, and I don't think Rikornak was shooting the idea out entirely, but I. would be incredibly imbalanced if it was put out in the manner you suggested Cuddle.

It would definitely need some pretty large tuning or overhaul attatched to it, which im not sure would be worth the labor they'd need to put forth in it when other more viable options are open where the numbers can just be tuned and tweaked, lowering base exp, diminishing returns on multiple items (or Make X options)- there are far more simpler options before having to go that route. Viable, but probably not a realistic expectation as that would also need to be tuned (basically in the way Rikornak was saying)

21-Feb-2019 22:31:01

Cynikull
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Cynikull

Posts: 258Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
CuddleBucket said:
What about making salvage smithable?

It would take 5 ticks to make (3s) & cost 2 bars for tiny, up to 10 bars for huge.


Those numbers are horribly balanced. Including my two postings from your thread in here:

10 rune bars for the equivalent of 40k is still a bad joke.

A rune bar has an alch value of 250 coins - so to be fitted in the formula it needs to be 32 bars per size (since it's 8k coins per size) - so 160 bars for an huge item.

Next balancing problem: XP needs to be drastically cut per bar.

Let's say a huge salvage uses 160 bars (it just can't be less due to the alch value): 160 rune bars are normally worth 38400 xp (or 240 per bar), so something working could be cutting the xp by 100 - giving 384 xp per salvage smithed - considering the speed you suggested. It still would be faster than regular smithing, but likely much more expensive (as I highly doubt rune bars will ever drop close to those 250 coins alch value)


Very thoroughly put out, and I don't think Rikornak was shooting the idea out entirely, but I. would be incredibly imbalanced if it was put out in the manner you suggested Cuddle.

It would definitely need some pretty large tuning or overhaul attatched to it, which im not sure would be worth the labor they'd need to put forth in it when other more viable options are open where the numbers can just be tuned and tweaked, lowering base exp, diminishing returns on multiple items (or Make X options)- there are far more simpler options before having to go that route. Viable, but probably not a realistic expectation as that would also need to be tuned (basically in the way Rikornak was saying)

21-Feb-2019 22:31:09

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