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clarification on ban evasion

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Immortalized

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hello, while discussing with a fellow forumer I realized that there is no actual clarification about evading a forum ban.

for those who don't know, evading a forum ban can be done by purchasing membership on a new account and continuing to post on the forums after your original account was banned.

since getting banned in the first place is such an unlikely thing to happen with the new, too relaxed forum rules, I wanted to ask if evading a ban is against the rules? to me it seems pretty pointless to allow someone to evade a ban on a new account. it takes far too many hoops to jump through in order to get a user banned in the first place, it seems very messed up to me to let them just post on a new account because they paid you more.

please clarify, preferably a jagex moderator.
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15-Dec-2018 19:08:51

Immortalized

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relevant discussion that led to inquiry:

Draco Burnz said:
Immortalized said:
Draco Burnz said:
Immortalized said:
Draco Burnz said:
^Ppl do get removed though, its just that as long as they adhere to the rules, they can use another acc.


well of course u think this, but i think that is not true. that sounds like evading a ban to me.


Proof that it isnt true?


well someone was banned and began posting on an alt, and a jmod banned the alt. so I consider this example as proof.


Maybe due to the fact the alt wasnt abiding by the rules.

It doesnt disprove the fact that if they are they can post.
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15-Dec-2018 19:08:56 - Last edited on 15-Dec-2018 19:11:13 by Immortalized

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I think the ban is intended for the individual, not the account

this is verified by their in-game ban policy, where they ban all known accounts for actions such as RWT/macroing, even if one account specifically did not engage in the behavior
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15-Dec-2018 19:46:53

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Twillow said:
There is no rule that would prevent a user who is banned from the forums from posting with an alt account, provided that the alt account is not used to continue with rulebreaking or the same type of behavior as led to the ban in the first place.

Just like in game, if an account is banned, a player can still play on an alt, provided the alt account follows the rules of the game.


Also, from the Forum Offence System thread in Community Home:

Users found to be circumventing forum bans solely to disrupt the forums by using throw away accounts risk action being taken against their main game account. This is also true for users who decide to disrupt the forums on throw away accounts (regardless of whether or not they are evading a ban).



TL;DR: Alts are innocent until proven guilty.

thanks, do you know why fmods say things like "take some time away" from the forums then? if they know the user is allowed to return on a new account in a few seconds
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15-Dec-2018 19:58:45

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Louiellen said:
Just establishing 2 facts that may help with the discussion:

1. Yes, we have to jump a lot of hoops to perform the forum ban ritual. I cannot go to the details, but it is not something an fmod wants to do if given a choice. To describe my feelings when doing that can be summarized in one word: 'uncomfortable'. I think the banning ritual complexity is designed like that so that we are forced to make sure the forum mute to be imposed is correct in the first place. I'm not interested of asking that to change, the current system keeps us in our toes, to think nth times before we make our judgement call.

2. Fmods have no facility to detect if an erring forumer that got banned earlier bypasses the ban using another account, unless the erring forumer himself/herself admitted it. Unless it is super obvious that disruptive ForumerX and disruptive ForumerY are just controlled by the similar person behind the keyboard, we cannot jump to conclusion. Only Jmods have the tools at their disposal to fully detect if a case of bypassing a ban using another account to continue the earlier disruption is really happening.

thanks for clarifying this as well

I did not know that you guys actually choose not to ban people when the opportunity presents itself, very disappointed to hear this
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15-Dec-2018 20:02:19

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Draco Burnz said:
Immortalized said:
do you know why fmods say things like "take some time away" from the forums then? if they know the user is allowed to return on a new account in a few seconds


Its probably so the person might actually think about what they done and that most ppl probably dont auto hop on an alt.

Plus if you're allowed to play the game on an alt, it doesnt make sense for the same rule to apply on forums.

an interesting point, although I think the consequences are felt more when an in-game ban lands since you lose all your progress. you don't really lose anything meaningful on the forums.
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15-Dec-2018 20:04:56

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Louiellen said:
We can never compare the ingame ban from a forum ban, they are two different things.

The ingame pmod-applied mute also comes with an automatic forum ban, for the protection of RSOF. It is a defensive mechanism, so that the player muted ingame will not cause disruption here in RSOF as a retaliation. A forum ban does not equal to an ingame mute/ban, unless a Jmod intervened and believe an ingame punishment also has merit due instance of misbehavior in RSOF.
never intended to convey it should

I just know that your actions in game can affect you here, and if you get multi-banned for RWT/macroing it affects your forum presence on multiple accounts as well.
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15-Dec-2018 20:12:45

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FiFi LaFeles said:
Immortalized said:
I think ban evasion should be against rules if it is not already, otherwise bans are useless.



I was perm forum banned - oooh probably about three years ago. No under the old 'strike' system but in one hit, personally by a JMod who no longer works for Jagex.

I checked with another JMod who told me it was perfectly fine to make another account to post on forums with provided that the new account did not break any rules.

And here I am.

So unless something's changed it is not viewed as ban evasion by Jagex unless the new account breaks forum rules.

thanks for your feedback. I think this situation is a little different as you did not return immediately afterward? although finding a potential grace period is subjective itself.
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15-Dec-2018 20:13:46

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Louiellen said:
Not really, we are well trained to handle instances when a forum mute is required.

Let me put it this way, if the erring forumer can be nudged to the right direction through a post hide or thread lock, or even a plain explanation through our forum responses, we will choose that action instead of the very complicated, uncomfortable and inconvenient forum ban ritual.

It takes a lot of guts (or stupidity) for a forumer to get an outright forum ban nowadays. The leniency is here because the community asked for it, it was granted.

From what you have described it sounds like only the most obvious offenders get actioned, rather than the subtle ones who intentionally skirt the gray lines.

I think that is largely unfortunate, since these people are chronic abusers of the forums and will otherwise never get banned because of the process you have described as being too uncomfortable.

And I am guessing with the knowledge that even if you went through this process they could readily return, you are also even less likely to take care of them.



Personally I never asked for lighter ban policies and I assume anyone who did is not part of the community here anymore. But that is an interesting way to pin the blame.
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15-Dec-2018 20:18:59

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Louiellen said:
Immortalized said:
Louiellen said:
Not really, we are well trained to handle instances when a forum mute is required.

Let me put it this way, if the erring forumer can be nudged to the right direction through a post hide or thread lock, or even a plain explanation through our forum responses, we will choose that action instead of the very complicated, uncomfortable and inconvenient forum ban ritual.

It takes a lot of guts (or stupidity) for a forumer to get an outright forum ban nowadays. The leniency is here because the community asked for it, it was granted.

From what you have described it sounds like only the most obvious offenders get actioned, rather than the subtle ones who intentionally skirt the gray lines.

I think that is largely unfortunate, since these people are chronic abusers of the forums and will otherwise never get banned because of the process you have described as being too uncomfortable.


The bottom line is the availability of the tools at our disposal. Again, as I said - only Jmod accounts have the tools to fully determine with 100% accuracy that disruptive forumerX is also disruptive forumerY. We are limited by the tools provided to us, and we cannot jump to conclusion. The only exemption to this is if disruptive forumerY admitted openly that he/she was disruptive forumerX, and he continues his/her disruption.

Jagex CM reviews the forum mutes applied, and from their end - they can make judgement calls beyond what can an fmod can do. With the powerful tools at their disposal they can determine that disrputive forumerX is also disruptive forumerY.

Thanks for the info. I did not know beforehand that you were unable to tell beyond the same certainty regular users had. That is unfortunate, and I hope maybe in the future Jagex does something to empower you guys more. It sounds like there is not much you can do currently.
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15-Dec-2018 20:37:09

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thanks for all the feedback. this has been very educational to me. from what I gathered here:

- repeat offenders are banned very rarely
- repeat offenders can return immediately on alt accounts
- most of the moderation team agrees with these policies

sounds awful
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25-Dec-2018 06:18:56

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Louiellen said:
Immortalized said:
thanks for all the feedback. this has been very educational to me. from what I gathered here:

- repeat offenders are banned very rarely
- repeat offenders can return immediately on alt accounts
- most of the moderation team agrees with these policies

sounds awful


How do you go about it, if you are in the fmod position?

try actually banning repeat offenders, so we don't have the problem in the first place
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25-Dec-2018 16:40:08

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Louiellen said:
Immortalized said:
Louiellen said:
Immortalized said:
thanks for all the feedback. this has been very educational to me. from what I gathered here:

- repeat offenders are banned very rarely
- repeat offenders can return immediately on alt accounts
- most of the moderation team agrees with these policies

sounds awful


How do you go about it, if you are in the fmod position?

try actually banning repeat offenders, so we don't have the problem in the first place


Like I said, we treat each account as a separate case. As we lack the necessary tools to confirm erring PlayerX is erring PlayerY. That tool is strictly Jmods-only. If PlayerY gets muted, it is because of his misdeads here in RSOF as PlayerY, and not as PlayerX who was earlier banned.

I see repeat offenders on the same account. it's not even being taken care of at that level.
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25-Dec-2018 18:22:13

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Louiellen said:
Exposing IP addresses of forumers, even to a trusted volunteer group like the fmods will open a lot of legal can of worms for Jagex. If there is no legal barrier for such implementation, such tool could have been delegated to us decades ago.

convert the ip to a hash and show it to moderators

you cannot reverse hashes and it easily allows moderators to match the same person

honestly it is trivial to solve these issues
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25-Dec-2018 18:23:42

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thanks for the cleanup. it does look easy, although i report these things a lot and usually don't even get a response on forum help. can check my posting history on there to see what i mean.

back on topic now...
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26-Dec-2018 23:19:25

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