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Re: world guardian and the SoJ

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Selethiel
Apr Member 2016

Selethiel

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So recently completed "Dishonor among st Thieves" and found something very peculiar that seems contradictory. Zamorak states that after contact with the Stone of Jas, he has absorbed energy and become a lot stronger but you, the player, because of your WG status can only temporarily channel this power.

What's interesting is the following:

1) WG is a 'boon' bestowed upon the player by Guthix at his death that seemingly grants immunity to divine magic, even from gods on the same level if not stronger than him (Zaros).

2) Guthix gained practically all his power from Elder Artifacts - the SoJ in particular, in essence, his power is derived entirely from his contact with the SoJ.

3) Yet despite this, somehow your status as WG can over rule power that is derived from the SoJ.

How can Guthix render the player 'unable' to permanently benefit from contact with this item? This would seemingly imply that Guthix's strength was in fact, equal to that of an Elder God as his 'boon' somehow has the ability to permanently block energy even from Elder artifacts! However, one must note that Guthix's strength is entirely derived from elder energy... so apparently his strength, that comes from the SoJ, can nullify the SoJ...? (Note that the player only got a mere fraction of it)

So basically, we have a deceased god who somehow is able to block the SoJ from permanently affecting the player because WG, and who can somehow block divine energy from stronger gods (ie: Zaros as Zaros survived an attack by the Staff without dying while Guthix died in mere moments).

This just doesn't add up.

On one hand, the lore seems to imply that Elder Artifacts are items of power beyond that of any god, that's why everyone wants to obtain them. At the same time, a former deceased god is able to block power that is gained from these artifacts despite the fact that these artifacts are the pinnacle of power beyond that of any god besides the elders themselves?

Not quite consistent.

16-Jun-2016 11:34:10 - Last edited on 16-Jun-2016 11:39:49 by Selethiel

AesirWarrior
Nov Member 2017

AesirWarrior

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I believe the idea was that Guthix created our god protection by manipulating the anima mundi somehow, not just taking a portion of his power and creating a shield out of it.

You could also argue it might be similar to the enchantment placed on Mjolnir in Marvel comics in that it has continually strengthened itself over the years and now even its creator can't lift it.

Regardless, I think it's more complex than Guthix using X amount of power to negate Y amount of power. You don't always need an equal amount of power to... Divert it, or keep it out. Perhaps the shield gains more power from the very divine energy it's trying to hold out? Imagine it like a bubble around the player. The player is not affected by the energy, but the bubble just grows stronger.

Most lore points toward Guthix being either equal or more powerful than Zaros btw. Guthix only died because he allowed himself to die.
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I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?
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16-Jun-2016 13:50:11

Baxtorian
Jul Member 2009

Baxtorian

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Selethiel said:
stronger gods (ie: Zaros as Zaros survived an attack by the Staff without dying while Guthix died in mere moments).


That does have an explanation: Zaros shed his body while Guthix wanted to die.

JMods when asked to compare the 2 always ducked that. I guess which one was stronger will remain forever unsolved.

Oh, and no topic: I don't think we should be looking for a lore explanation there. It would be OP if we could become gods, but now the way we operate has given us a reason why we can beat some epically strong entities like Nomad. Possibly Dragonkin in the (near?) future(who are equal to tier 5).

16-Jun-2016 15:35:59 - Last edited on 16-Jun-2016 15:37:36 by Baxtorian

Solanumtinkr
Jul Member 2009

Solanumtinkr

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Guthix drew knowledge from the SoJ, not power and using a link to the Anima Mundi he became very powerful indeed. Never forget that the Anima Mundi contains enough energy to feed multiple Elder Gods. meaning that even the smallest % would be far more power than any other god weilds, even with the Stone of Jas.

At the end of the day, our ability is down to applied knowledge, not power. Guthix is also one of the few that has visited the Void Realm ad he had the Elder Sword spluttering happily away near by. All that would be more than enough to work with.
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16-Jun-2016 15:49:18

Selethiel
Apr Member 2016

Selethiel

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The entire "allowed himself to die" seems a bit strange actually, Guthix in TWW stated that he could have stopped Sliske at any time prior to his being attacked, but that implies that once he was struck by the staff he was a dead man, no ifs no buts. So he could have stopped him before the attack but not during or after.

Zaros on the other hand withstood such an attack and continued to fight on. In fact, were it not for him "tripping" - will cover this later - Zamorak would have been the one headed to an early grave as all the lore has so far has indicated. It was the "trip" that led to his - Zaros- loss, not the act of the Staff being driven through his back.

The part where the Staff is called the "Siphon" actually makes this make sense. Simply impaling someone will only create a puncture wound, nothing more. In a divine being, this is hardly damaging as they have no actual body that relies on functional organs that would be damaged as mortal beings would. What the Siphon would need, is a receiving end. That is, an in, and an out. So Zamorak being impaled on the other end provided this as Zaros then had his power "siphoned" out, and into Zamorak upon which Zaros was greatly weakened.

Guthix's death, however, throws this into the wind as he was struck by a magical attack, even if it was through the Staff it is still, a magical attack, even if from a Mahjaraat, it's still, simply a magical attack that a god should be immune to. There was no receiving end as in the case of Zaros, so the idea of Guthix dying is actually very strange and not fully explained.

But either way, so far it seems like a fraction of residual energy from Guthix is enough to overpower an Elder Artifact - this is... not consistent with what the lore says about Elder Artifacts being immeasurably powerful beyond that of any god as any god that possesses them is augmented further without exception. This is only possible if the artifact is stronger than the god in question.

16-Jun-2016 16:22:53

Selethiel
Apr Member 2016

Selethiel

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One could theorize that the SoJ serves as a link or draws upon the AM for energy as well, in this case, the SoJ serves as a direct link to the AM and one can gain strength via absorption of this energy. It is stated in lore that Elder Artifacts are but tools that the Elders use to shape the AM with. In essence, each of them serves but a function to manipulate the AM.

This makes it make even less sense, since then Guthix's boon on the player as WG is enough to block the energy of all of Gielinor channeled through the SoJ from permanently augmenting the player, so somehow, instead of absorbing it and having it augment them - as any other creature would - Drakan for example, seems to be 5x the size of his compatriots, no doubt due to the SoJ - the player due to being WG is somehow completely immune.

This would place the player in a very interesting position, they are literally - outside the plane where they can be affected by AM... far as lore is concerned, is that even possible? Everything on Gielinor is conceived by AM, literally everything, divine or mundane, or is it?

Then there is the issue about WG's divine immunity, assume AM is not divine energy as it's the energy that created everything, so if the SoJ simply is a channel for AM, whatever Guthix placed on the player should have no effect at all... but it does. So refer again to the above point about the player being outside the plane that can be affected by AM.

Oh how the plot has twisted since 13 years ago (or more for some others) when you started out as a lowly peasant on tutorial island.

16-Jun-2016 16:29:45 - Last edited on 16-Jun-2016 16:45:22 by Selethiel

N7spongy

N7spongy

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Baxtorian said:
Selethiel said:
stronger gods (ie: Zaros as Zaros survived an attack by the Staff without dying while Guthix died in mere moments).


That does have an explanation: Zaros shed his body while Guthix wanted to die.

JMods when asked to compare the 2 always ducked that. I guess which one was stronger will remain forever unsolved.

Oh, and no topic: I don't think we should be looking for a lore explanation there. It would be OP if we could become gods, but now the way we operate has given us a reason why we can beat some epically strong entities like Nomad. Possibly Dragonkin in the (near?) future(who are equal to tier 5).
I remember it being stated a long time ago that Guthix was stronger than Zaros, but only by a bit.
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16-Jun-2016 20:00:18

Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

Maiden China

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your 2 is wrong. Guthix did gain a bit of power from elder artefacts, but most of it was gained from the anima mundi... which all the other gods never really bothered to deal with.
That's what kept the edicts up, and that power now keeps you immune to divine magic. (I think that's mentioned in seren's part in the book of the gods)

Guthix didnt gain anywhere near as much power from the SoJ as sara and zammy since guthix isn't really as hated by the dragonkin as they are... their hate for guthix is closer to the hate they have for the player who's barely used the thing at all

guthix was stronger than zaros (than any of the younger gods, really), but not by an amount that really would have mattered. The not-death thing zaros did is something all tier 2 gods can do
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17-Jun-2016 00:47:50

Sepulchre
Feb Member 2019

Sepulchre

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The barrier of the Edicts was made from the power of the Anima Mundi. This is indeed where Guthix gained a lot of his power. Most of his use of the Stone of Jas was in creating Runestones, as seen in the Meeting History quest. The idea that the Barrier of the Edicts was able to keep the gods out probably meant that it was something made to block divine energy, specifically any gained from contact with Elder Artifacts.
Skip some few thousand years and he is dying. In his dying moments he gives a much weaker version of that power to the World Guardian, the power of the Anima Mundi to block divine energy. You can basically consider that part of what Guthix gave us is a tiny Edicts Barrier, and as such, divine energy is (for the most part) unable to pass through it.
As for us being particularly adept at channeling it temporarily, I have an idea on that. The Anima is what the Elder Gods feed on, it's what gives them energy and allows them to live. Through feeding on Anima, they become able to produce divine energy. Because the two are so connected, though the Anima Mundi shield we have prevents divine energy from coming in, it almost acts as a conductor to the divine energy. Not only does this allow us to channel more without absorbing it, it is also what allows us to hold on to the divine energy for as long as we want, even after breaking contact with the Stone itself.
A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

17-Jun-2016 04:59:54

Baxtorian
Jul Member 2009

Baxtorian

Posts: 6,311Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Selethiel said:
The entire "allowed himself to die" seems a bit strange actually, Guthix in TWW stated that he could have stopped Sliske at any time prior to his being attacked, but that implies that once he was struck by the staff he was a dead man, no ifs no buts. So he could have stopped him before the attack but not during or after.

Guthix's death, however, throws this into the wind as he was struck by a magical attack, even if it was through the Staff it is still, a magical attack, even if from a Mahjaraat, it's still, simply a magical attack that a god should be immune to. There was no receiving end as in the case of Zaros, so the idea of Guthix dying is actually very strange and not fully explained.


Think of it as a niche power. That is not more powerful than T1 but has some unique qualities. Guthix had a great understanding of how the whole god/anima thingy works.

[You can get electrocuted by a wire that doesn't have isolating piece of rubber around it. Now, the small tube of rubber protecting You from it isn't anything dangerous - try to beat up someone with it. However, it stops You from potentially lethal electroution.]

Can You give us the quote of how he could only stop Sliske till his attack? And even then, JMods said numerous times - Zaros shed his body, which died. Guthix didn't. Guthix said he would welcome his death.

And what Sliske used wasn't a Mahjarrat magical attack. It was an Elder-God-weapon magical attack.

17-Jun-2016 09:31:19

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