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Zamorakianism is not freedom!

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Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Sir Ike said:
I wonder...it seems like after the last revision the elders would anticipate the rise of complex life on the next cycle. Surely they would have emplemented some sort of counter mechanism akin to birth control, if! They don't want us here.


Let's see here:

Sentient life is not supposed to arise on the perfect world, but Vorago originates on Gielinor, which suggests that he was created by the elders. His earliest known activites? Rampaging before being defeated by somebody using the Maul of Omens (suggesting he had attacked mortals).

Jas' Catalyst is linked to the Dragonkin with a curse that both empowers them and drives them to kill any and all who use the Catalyst (aside from, presumably, herself and her siblings).

The Heart of Gielinor, which collects and directs all of Gielinor's anima (their food source), is protected by Telos who shares many similarities to Vorago (which would hint at him having been created by the elders as well).

That enough bug zappers for you?

Edit: I should also point out that there were no elder artifacts last cycle as they were created to make up for Mah's loss. This means no gods, and so no significant interplanar travel (like say, races populating worlds other than their plane of origin) as you'd not have elder blade opened or god magic powered portals. As such, the elders' defense mechanisms really don't appear to have taken this into consideration (ex: the kin's inability to kill sufficiently strong false users).

12-Jul-2016 03:50:24 - Last edited on 12-Jul-2016 04:15:01 by Hguoh

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Sir Ike said:
I recall reading somehwere some time ago that sentient life is an exceptionally efficient 'Anima generator'. I expect the elders, especially Jas, to be vastly more wise than Zaros or even Guthix. Given that she is associated with time, she probably has the ability to bend spacetime into a window, to see all possible futures and all possible pasts. (Too bad elder scroll is already patented, that would make a sweet artefact...but I digress)


1. The theory that sentient life creates more anima comes from Zaros. It is currently unconfirmed.

2. I would also like to point out that, prior to this revision, the elders only had one experience with sentient life: the Dragonkin. So it's not like they've had much to observe when it comes to anima production.

3. Jas is associated with time, yes. However, this does not mean that she can control time (kinda like how Mah is associated with potential and yet could not prevent her own corruption). Given Jaskra's chamber, Jas appears to only have the ability to view the past and present with no hold over the future or any other ability to manipulate the time stream. I'd also like to point out that the only thing capable of manipulating time, the Amserdrwys, was made by mortals when it essentially willed itself into existence.

12-Jul-2016 03:56:51

Sepulchre
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sepulchre

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1. I think sentient life is actually the result of imperfect anima, and that all living beings are made of anima. That being said, Zaros is probably right, about living beings generating more anima than the Elders realize.
2. I agree, the Elders themselves have probably never dealt with mortal life before, aside from casting them into the abyss, as Wen**a put it. That is, not until the Dragonkin escaped there and came to the Elders. I remember seeing somewhere that Mah herself was the Elder God in charge of keeping mortals in check, or making sure they didn't get too powerful. Ironically enough; it was the replacement of her, the Elder Artifacts, that would allow mortals to gain such power. It is possible that the Dragonkin were meant to be another failsafe incase mortals gained too much power, though Jas seemed to put too much faith into how strong the Kin would become when the Stone was used.
3. I don't think any being has control full over time, I think some beings are blessed with the power to see through it. Seers can see into the future, but the visions don't come at will, they come when they may. JasKra seemed less able to see into the past so much as it seemed able to see into the mind of any who willingly presented their mind to it, hence why we were forced to gather our memories to prove we weren't there to harm it. The Key itself I believe was created by Guthix and/or Seren at some point, though how it can travel through time I'm not sure. Personally I say crystal magic.
A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

12-Jul-2016 04:47:32

Sir Ike

Sir Ike

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1. The bug zappers seem to only guard certain locations or things, and not actively seek out the destruction (or regulation) of life. So either they're malfunctioning, or weren't programmed to meddle with life.

2. Good points about elder artefacts not being around on the last cycle. I hadn't considered that they had no previous experience with lesser gods. However...

3. Has it been confirmed that Jas cannot see into the future? Looking at the bit about seers, how they can see but not at will. And also the key. That seems to suggest that this universe is governed by laws even it's "creators?" have no control over, if Jas indeed can't manipulate time.
Are there things even higher than the elder gods? Beings that don't require a physical form or food source? Perhaps the universe is the result of a big bang and the elders are just primordial elementals that sprung into existence and absorbed tons of energy in its infancy due to abundance and no competition.

4. The concensus of you 2 seems to be the elders don't disavow the existence of sentient life, as long as their power levels don't exceed 9000. The dragonkin can be called a failed failsafe, which would lend reinforcement to the idea that Jas can't see into the future.

12-Jul-2016 05:16:20 - Last edited on 12-Jul-2016 05:39:19 by Sir Ike

Sepulchre
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,496Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
If Jas had complete control over time, none of us would exist. She could technically turn back time after each failed attempt at creating a perfect world, until they got it right. Then there would be no need for so many "imperfect" worlds in each cycle. A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

12-Jul-2016 05:54:20

ZAmorakZaros
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2013

ZAmorakZaros

Posts: 7,545Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tempra said:
NotFishing said:
Tempra said:
joking or not that's not a word you should be accusing people of being. they would tear down a peaceful civilization because that's what they are accustomed to. what else would you call a creature if it grew up on a world with volcanic activity, thunderstorms and lighting strikes?


Azzanadra, Kharshai, and Wahisietel are nothing like that. The Mahjarrat are not without reason, and you should not advocate their destruction just because a large number of them are bad. Zaros grew up on the same world, and he is nothing like what you describe.
we don't even know him that well

Seren grew up there. Is that enough?
NO
I do not ship ZamorakxZaros.
I follow them. And Marimbo, the best t5 god.

12-Jul-2016 19:57:22

Sir Ike

Sir Ike

Posts: 112Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Ah, but if controlling time requires vast amounts of energy, which it most likely does, then the creation of Anima generators (each greater than the last) is still necessary. Because there's the potential to gain more power to create even greater worlds. Simply going back in time would not only take a big chunk of energy and leave Jas weakened, it would also put her in a past environment and in the presence of a less efficient generator. Then there's the issue of transporting several of her sisters back as well, taking even more power. However, with the mah incident, it could be theorized that these Anima generators get a little worse each cycle, leading to the dwindling numbers of elders. But that could be written off as a small design flaw, which they are improving upon*

**;DR: seeing the past and future is trivial, but transporting a physical form to different points in time takes huge amounts of energy, even for elder gods. It wouldn't help them.

But anyway, this is a very convoluted subject and we could be here a while. I only brought it up to focus attention away from petty disagreements for a time.

13-Jul-2016 03:47:31 - Last edited on 13-Jul-2016 03:57:58 by Sir Ike

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