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Zamorak vs. Zamorakianism

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Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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Hello, lore community. It’s me again, Skystone Jexel, with another unpopular opinion. This time, I’m going to be tackling Zamorak. Admittedly, I think the community cuts Zamorak and his philosophy too much slack, and there are a number of problems I have with the idea of strength through chaos, but I believe there to be one fatal flaw with Zamorak that I haven’t seen anyone talk about yet: he is incompatible with his own philosophy.

To see why this is, let’s take a look at what exactly the Zamorakian philosophy is:

“Great creation can only follow great destruction. We all progress more quickly when chaos reigns. But following Zamorak is about personal gain also. Like Zamorak, we should all be ready to take power when offered.” -Moldark


“He has taught us that order leads to stagnation. Only through chaos can we change for the better.” -Bilrach


“His theories resonated with me in a way I cannot quite describe. They taught me that fortitude is built in the face of adversity.” -Moia


“As Zamorak seized the power of godhood, so should you seize all power within your grasp, find strength in the chaos of Zamorak!” -Zamorak’s Book of Chaos


The Zamorakian philosophy stresses that one should always be advancing and taking advantage of opportunities to seize more power, but what does this mean for Zamorak? At the moment, Zamorak is an enemy of Saradomin, Zaros, Seren, and Armadyl, and seeks to defeat them.

“Vengeance is never far from my mind. Retribution will come to those that have made the mistake of crossing me.” -Zamorak
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

20-Mar-2017 01:21:29 - Last edited on 21-Mar-2017 18:58:27 by Jexel L

Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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However, if Zamorak managed to defeat the other gods, there would be nobody left who could provide any meaningful opposition to him. Zamorak’s philosophy would dictate that he should then seize all power within his grasp. As an immortal being, he would have an infinitely long life unless he was killed. With an infinite amount of time, nobody to oppose him, and a drive to advance and increase in power, Zamorak’s power would grow and grow and grow until eventually he controlled the entire universe.

But here’s the problem: If Zamorak controlled the entire universe, it would create order. The Zamorakian philosophy states that order is harmful, and thus, Zamorak would become an affront to his own philosophy, no better than Saradomin or Zaros.

The only way Zamorak could avoid this would be if he were to stop gaining power, but if he were to stop gaining power, he would stagnate, and would still become an affront to his own philosophy.

It seems, then, that chaos has only two possible outcomes in the long run: order or stagnation, thus causing the very thing it is meant to prevent.
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

20-Mar-2017 01:22:04 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 01:25:33 by Jexel L

Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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“But wait!” you might say. “That argument relies on the assumption that the one following the philosophy is immortal! That doesn’t stop mortals from following it.”

There are a couple problems here, though. To start with, Moia, demons, and the Mahjarrat are all biologically immortal. That’s every member of Zamorak’s inner circle except Daquarius. Even if you take immortal beings out of the equation, there’s still the problem of governments becoming too powerful. What if one country proved more powerful than the others and managed to conquer the world? You would then have a world that resembled a Saradominist one with its order. One could argue that Zamorak would intervene if such a thing were to happen, dismantling the dominant empire and returning the world to a state of chaos, but this is also in opposition to Zamorak’s beliefs, as interfering to enforce chaos would in itself be a form of control.

“Chaos is not a game where you can pull the strings. Only an imperious Zarosian would believe they could play puppet master.” -Zamorak


Based on what I have argued, I have come to the conclusion that strength through chaos is a self-defeating philosophy, able to exist only temporarily before order or stagnation inevitably arise. If you think I’ve overlooked something or that there’s a flaw in my reasoning, please feel free to post any counter-arguments you may have, just as long as you keep things civil. The intention of this thread is to question and to promote new ways of thinking, not to get into a factional dick-measuring contest.

Thanks for reading, and have a nice day!
Skystone Jexel
, Supreme Warden of The Skystone Order and
Saradominist
Lorehound

The sword of the righteous and the shield of the defenseless.

20-Mar-2017 01:23:07

Bloodcount

Bloodcount

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Every time I think about an in-game character growing more powerful, I think about what Jas told Zaros. Basically, to paraphrase, there is a level of power which Zamorak has not yet obtained (proven by his losing to Zaros in CoM), and then there is a level of power which Zaros has not (and seemingly, cannot) obtain, which is Elder Godhood.

Zaros (at full strength) is apparently much stronger than Zamorak. Zaros, so-far, has not found a way to ascend past tier-2. It may turn out true that one who is not an Elder can never become an Elder. Would this mean that they have to stop trying? If there's an unobtainable power goal, then Zamorak and his followers can never become absolute.

Therefore, Zamorak's philosophy would require that Jas be correct when she said that one cannot become an Elder.

Thoughts?

20-Mar-2017 01:51:29

Giras
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Giras

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Nice bait Jexel, but the problem lies in the fact that there's always going to be room for improvement. Even the elder gods aren't completely omnipotent, there's always the possibility to become even stronger or to find new ways to utilize power.

As for Zamorak controlling the universe... you do understand that there is literally not one instance of Zamorak going around imposing his rules on how people should live right? Zamorak ascendant over his enemies would only mean that he'll have the satisfaction of killing blue boy and basically nothing else as Zamorak doesn't go around blowing up civilizations for not kowtowing to him. Zamorak has also never said that order is harmful, only stagnation and the cessation of improvement.

Even your example of civilizations, is assuming that the civilization doesn't have internal conflict. Even should one faction emerge victorious there will always be sub-factions within the faction much like how one political party can have multiple wings. The beauty of it is that as long as free will exists, there will always be dissent, chaos, and room for improvement.

This thread is basically one big strawman, with little to no nuance.
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20-Mar-2017 02:17:02 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 20:11:08 by Giras

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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I'll have to echo Giras, too many assumptions for this to be very coherent. The real kicker is right here, though:Jexel L said:
...I believe there to be one fatal flaw with the philosophy that I haven’t seen anyone talk about yet: Zamorak is incompatible with his own philosophy.
A 100% untrue statement. Zamorak being incompatible with the philosophy has no bearing on the validity of the philosophy itself.
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Mar-2017 03:07:58 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 03:09:33 by Raleirosen

Rifleavenger

Rifleavenger

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This argument is the same one that The White make against the Chaos alignment in Shin Megami Tensei 4. It's a general argument against Chaos in most of the series. It works in SMT's grim setting where you can count on mankind and demonkind alike to never really learn from their mistakes. Were this that setting, I'd agree with you, since Chaos could be counted on to stick to its guns unto it's own destruction.

But Runescape is a far more optimistic game. Zamorakians may never be nice, but many of them would likely stand back before allowing their own acquisition of power to undermine their worldview. I still find it an ugly and reprehensible view, but we're not going to have SMT/Dark Souls cycles where both sides are absolute monsters and neutrality is impotent.

You can say that checking one's own ambitions now and then violates the philosophy, but very few philosophies can be 100% consistent in practice. Zamorak was ready to die to Zaros in order to save the other Mahjarrat (as he saw things at least), even though that would mean giving up not only his power, but his life.

Giras said:
You do understand that there is literally not one instance of Zamorak going around imposing his rules on how people should live right?
Zamorak obviously has a strong opinion on how people ought to live. Even if he doesn't "force" people to obey direct commands, any dissenters would have to fend off his followers schemes at their own expense, and if they advocated an opposing viewpoint he disagrees with (ex. Sara or Zaros' ideal civilizations) he'd likely attack them as threats to chaos. He's not an isolationist like Seren; in serving the ends of his followers he is helping determine how those who oppose them must live. Zammy also threw some fireballs around a village to liven them up a bit, forcing them to abide by his dictates instead of respecting their right to continue living "stagnant," but peaceful, lives.

20-Mar-2017 05:11:07 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 14:01:20 by Rifleavenger

Elf of Seren
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Elf of Seren

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Giras said:
Nice bait Jexel,


Literally me rn.

~~~~

If he is serious, I think he's either oversimplifying Zamorakian Philosophy to a point where it isn't even his anymore, or his bias is too strong to really see anything beyond "He is my enemy. Everything he thinks is flawed. He must be killed."

Beyond that, I mostly agree with Giras and Raleirosen.

Giras said:


As for Zamorak controlling the universe... you do understand that there is literally not one instance of Zamorak going around imposing his rules on how people should live right?


Except for this comment. In The Song from Before the War, it states:

Original message details are unavailable.
Mazakon's authority made Tasgall sound like a child arguing with his elders. "Kidnapping, torture and brainwashing, I know. I am grateful to the Army of Saradomin, but..."


I don't think it's much of a leap from there to being told how to live your life. I mean, the brainwashing is kind of a big indicator of that.
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20-Mar-2017 08:25:54 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 08:26:27 by Elf of Seren

Raleirosen

Raleirosen

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Rifleavenger said:
This argument is the same one that The White make against the Chaos alignment in Shin Megami Tensei 4. It's a general argument against Chaos in most of the series. It works in SMT's grim setting where you can count on mankind and demonkind alike to never really learn from their mistakes. Were this that setting, I'd agree with you, since Chaos could be counted on to stick to its guns unto it's own destruction.
+1 for SMT references
Patrolling Lore FC almost makes you wish for a Great Revision.

20-Mar-2017 09:31:13

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Literally no example of Zamorak going around imposing his on how people should live?

Robes of Subjugation
Chaos Dwarves (accidental, but it happened)
Commanding the Twin Furies track down and kill Vindicta when they wanted to take revenge for their fallen sister
Zamorak's Coup (yes, the empire was corrupt, but the end result was him imposing his own beliefs on the Zarosian loyalists against their will)
He led one of the 4 most significant factions in the first Gielinorian God Wars during which he deliberately acted to conquer the other 3's territories and people (he even took it upon himself to blow himself and the other 3 gods up so as the 'free' the people of Gielinor)
The village he set on fire in his Book of the Gods

One man's liberation is another's oppression, every righteous rebellion a selfish usurping of power. It's always a matter of perspective, and Zamorak's 'liberation' of mortals is as much an imposition of his own beliefs on mortals as any of the other 'hands-on' gods.

Heck, even Guthix imposed his own beliefs on mortals when he forcefully removed the other gods from Gielinor (as evidenced by the efforts their followers went through to get them back). You can debate all you want as to whether Zamorak was acting in the best interests of mortals (or at least with the intent to do so), but to argue that he doesn't go around imposing his beliefs about how mortals should live is sheer folly.

20-Mar-2017 13:11:47 - Last edited on 20-Mar-2017 13:18:47 by Hguoh

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