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The Garlandia Accords

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Kopaka
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2017

Kopaka

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Bearing in mind I am a complete noob for lore, but I do have all the quests done aside from 'Phite club, so I at least have some smattering of knowledge but not very well developed.

I have seen many people take serious issue with Saradomin's treatment of Garlandia.

I do not think it is a kind act toward her or her people what he did, obviously.

I'm just wondering what the people who thereby condemn Saradomin entirely think was the appropriate response to her rebellion?

As I see it there could be several alternatives to what happened:

Exile her. This would remove her from the public eye and allow Saradomin to proceed with preparations. The downside to this is it would be extremely likely for numerous Icyene to join her as a rebellious group since her ideas were simply put away but not addressed directly.

Attempt to win a public argument against her, to persuade the Icyene, even if it was impossible to change her mind that war was inevitable. The problem with this is it would take time, it would open up the very real possibility for more Icyene to get drawn into her pacifism. More than anything this would likely just be a waste of time when there wasn't time to spare.

Privately try to convince her of the errors in her ways. Again this falls into taking too much time and more than likely Saradomin knew he was not going to be able to change her mind.

Public shaming in a less violent way, to discredit her. This could still accomplish his goals but would take a lot more finesse to pull off in a sufficiently convincing fashion, especially given her status among her people.
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23-Nov-2017 10:46:14

Kopaka
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2017

Kopaka

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Now a lot of what I just said sounds pretty tyrannical, which is a word I have seen used to describe Saradomin before. In general, taking it upon yourself to act on behalf of a sovereign people group will take away their sovereignty/rights, which is unarguably tyrannical.

One could compare it to a parent taking away their child's freedoms to protect them. This action would usually be seen as appropriate up to a certain age. For a parent to continue removing freedoms of their child once the child is old enough to understand the consequences of their actions would usually be seen as detrimental to the child's progression into adulthood and learning responsibility. That being said, if the parent truly believed that they were saving the child's life by doing so, they would feel justified, and I can't really say I'd disagree. The word child is used here simply in reference to the parent-child relationship, not to indicate age.

So I guess I don't really know where I stand on this. On the one hand I think Saradomin is more or less acting as a parental figure to the Icyene. The argument for me becomes one of whether this was appropriate. If I personally was in a loving relationship with a lesser race of creatures who faced extinction, I feel like I also would want to do whatever it took to protect them. I can relate to his feelings about that.

Anyway I hope to foster intellectual, emotional, and above all respectful discussion on this topic!
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23-Nov-2017 10:46:19 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 10:52:17 by Kopaka

Kopaka
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2017

Kopaka

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I am not sure if I'm supposed to put spoiler tags or give spoiler warnings, but honestly if you are in the lore discussion forum and you click on a topic to read it you have to expect to potentially have things spoiled, no?
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23-Nov-2017 10:53:34 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 10:54:06 by Kopaka

MystLunaris
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2017

MystLunaris

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I'll bring up the same points I usually bring up.
Kopaka said:

Exile her. This would remove her from the public eye and allow Saradomin to proceed with preparations. The downside to this is it would be extremely likely for numerous Icyene to join her as a rebellious group since her ideas were simply put away but not addressed directly.

She was already exiled, in addition to having her wings ripped off she was left behind while the other Icyene migrated north. It's supposed to be a death sentence, the Icyene with their wings ripped off are left out in the cold where food supplies are scarce and their chance of actually surviving the winter is slim to none.

This is another one of the things that really makes me hate Saradomin he claims he hated ripping her wings off and didn't want to do it and regretted doing it immediately afterwards.
So why then did he also make the punishment a death sentence by banishing her?
I'm pretty sure he would've already made his point just by ripping her wings off. And if he regretted what he did and wanted to prove that he wasn't just cruel but actually supportive then letting her stay and helping her survive through the winter would've shown that.

It's basically like he just throws her away and hopes everyone will forget about it.
He does a similar thing to Sir Owen, not even showing any real remorse or any willingness to try and correct his mistake. And even telling Sir Owen that if he tries to talk to the Temple Knights they'll destroy him.
Now, why would they do that when Saradomin can just tell them not to?
Seems pretty obvious to me that Saradomin has no intention of telling them as he'd have to admit to another failure and he prefers to keep trying to run from his guilty conscience.
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23-Nov-2017 12:40:21 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 15:00:11 by MystLunaris

MystLunaris
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MystLunaris

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Second, there are many more actions he could've taken than those.

Option 1:
Teleport the Icyene to another planet. Now some people may argue that he may not have had the power to do that and really I agree that until the mods say if he did or didn't we have no real way of knowing, however that doesn't mean that there isn't enough evidence to put forward a pretty strong position that he could've.
Firstly we know he's transported Icyene across worlds before, due to the fact that there are Icyene on Gilenor. Secondly, we know that he probably transported a large amount of them since he brought them over to Gilenor, along with large forces from various other races. This is ironic of course because he's shown he's not willing to transport them places to save them from dying in a war, but transporting them across worlds so that they can die in a war he's perfectly fine with.
Thirdly we know he knows about various different worlds that the Icyene could've inhabited, as he already transported humans to various different worlds to start colonies.
Fourthly, portals probably don't require that much energy to make, although there's a lot of contradictions with this the only real evidence to back up portals requiring a lot of energy is with what happened between Zaros and Loarnab. Of course, the mods have said they require a lot of energy. But Saradomin, Bandos, Armadyl and any other gods involved in the Gilenorian or Naragun God wars, would've also transported their armies with relative ease. Even Icthlarin managed to transport 500 Mahjarrat all the way from Frenesake to Gilenor.
Honestly, Saradomin could've even portalled in reinforcements to help the Icyene fight.
Or potentially, made a deal with the attackers and find them a better homeworld to live on.

Option 2:
Make a barrier, many other gods have shown the ability to do this, sure it takes a hell of a lot of energy, but unlike Guthix or Jododu Otoku he wouldn't have had to do it on a planet size scale.
(Continued)
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23-Nov-2017 12:41:41 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 17:12:26 by MystLunaris

Lethalintent
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Lethalintent

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It was not appropriate at all, explained masterfully by Mystlunaris above.

I appreciate the fact that there was a war, and in war you need the right mindset. You can't be talking about peace or laying down to die, Garlandia was not wrong to want that, but it wouldn't of ended well if she had gotten her way.

However, what Saradomin did was disgusting. There wasn't any dialogue between the two, there wasn't any reasoning or apology given at the time, he simply rose from his seat, summoned them all to the courtyard, mutilated her and left her to die, and it's only by the good graces of her race helping her that she even lived through to today to tell us this story.

Saradomin proved that day to his supposed "Beloved" favored race, that if you speak out against him during times of war, you won't be listened to, your voice will not matter, you'll merely be left to die to serve as an example to frighten everyone else to not do the same.
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23-Nov-2017 13:11:19

Elf of Seren
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Elf of Seren

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Lethalintent said:
and it's only by the good graces of her race helping her that she even lived through to today to tell us this story.



Can you source this?

~~~~

I agree with everything said above, btw. He's a monster.

Original message details are unavailable.
You say that as though it were a bad thing. People need to be led. They need governments. They need leaders. They need structures. Freedom doesn't mean anarchy. Just as control doesn't have to mean slavery. I offer guidance and leadership. Law and order. Under my 'control', people could thrive. Everyone would have the reassurance that they know where they belong and how they should behave. The people crave. Deep down everyone wants to know where they sit in the world. What you call control, I would argue is true freedom


Also a bit of a narcissist, possibly delusional (but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in thinking that he knows everything that needs to be known. He seems to have done decent in keeping New Domina up these last few millennia), given this quote.
I am not my god.
~~~~~
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23-Nov-2017 15:04:36 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 15:07:41 by Elf of Seren

Lethalintent
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Lethalintent

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Elf of Seren said:
Lethalintent said:
and it's only by the good graces of her race helping her that she even lived through to today to tell us this story.



Can you source this?


Unfortunately I can't, if I'm wrong and she survived on her own initiative, then that's fair enough.
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23-Nov-2017 15:20:58

MystLunaris
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MystLunaris

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Lethalintent said:
Elf of Seren said:
Lethalintent said:
and it's only by the good graces of her race helping her that she even lived through to today to tell us this story.

Can you source this?

Unfortunately I can't, if I'm wrong and she survived on her own initiative, then that's fair enough.


Her survivng completely on her own is what the transcripts from her wiki page imply.
"Player: What is life on New Domina without wings?
Garlandia: It is unforgiving. On our homeworld, we migrate regularly from one continent to another. This is to keep in the sun. To be in the cold is almost certain death. Without wings, I could not migrate. I endured the cold for what seemed like forever - basking in the fleeting sun. But I survived when others could not. I did not survive unscathed. My skin has shed its colour - a reminder of the sacrifice I made to be free of a god."
Although I know there have been a few additions and revisions of this story is in various places.

(Continued)
It's implied in the statements made by Garlandia that by that point Saradomin had already made the City of New Domina, a floating Island that would always follow the sun so that the Iycene didn't need to fly and migrate away from their homes but could stay in their homes all year round.
And I do have to give Saradomin credit there that's a really good and thoughtful gift, the thing is though, that it seems like this whole city is able to house all the Icyene.
And so back to my argument about barriers and not even having to spend the energy to make a barrier on a world scale... Well, I think you see where I'm going with this.

Really there were peaceful options all the time, but Saradomin just chose to ignore them and he does this time and time again.
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23-Nov-2017 15:30:42 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2017 21:10:51 by MystLunaris

Mewzard
Apr Member 2018

Mewzard

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Well, on this issue, mods have given a few bits of info. A few months back, I asked Mod Stu about the opposing group of the Icyene to see if maybe there was some hope for a peaceful solution:

"Mewzard
Jan 22

@JagexStu Were there any good people among the opposing group of the Icyene on their home world? And if so, what happened to them?

Mod Stu‏ @JagexStu
Jan 23

Some are calling it genocide. It was more like eradicating a plague, or extermination of a lethal swarm. It was kill or be killed."

So clearly, the peaceful solution was not an option. So, why this particular punishment?

From Runefest's Lore Marathon (thanks to Rubic for this quote):

"They clip the wings of wrongdoers, and strands shunned Iceyne to be stuck in the winter alone.

It isn't barbaric but a long honored tradition."

So, for good or ill, this punishment is an old Icyene one, and one they don't have a negative view on.

I'm not fond of what happened either way (I'm always down for a strong bout of mercy and people bettering themselves), but it never hurts to have clarification of how and why events happened.

Regardless of whether one believes it was the right decision or not, Saradomin definitely seems haunted by it. That description of the events the way they were told is one only one who has lied awake in bed many times hearing those sounds to their detriment would tell. It was not a proud recounting, it was a horrified one.

The outcome for the Icyene's survival worked out...but even when we succeed in making good things happen, if we have to take a path that negatively impacted others, it can still hurt.

Hopefully, the World Guardian can guide Saradomin to making fewer decisions like that, and finding more that help many without such harsh costs.

23-Nov-2017 17:12:31

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