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Ancient Drew
Nov Member 2018

Ancient Drew

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Wait a minute, I'm pretty sure they said this about each other.

Zaros:
"He is self-righteous, seeing things only in extremes. It was from him that I first learned of the notions of good and evil. I dismiss such notions; there are only actions and consequences. We agreed to disagree. Everything to him is either black or white,
but he himself exists in the grey. Ergo, he is a contradiction.


Saradomin:
"Ah, yes. The 'Empty Lord'. The lord of the Empty Throne who ruled his empire from the shadows. Another god whose lethargy was stronger than his leadership skills. He ruled from seclusion, letting his own people do the work for him. No wonder he was betrayed. He would have you believe he is a guide rather than a monarch, but he lacks the conviction to truly lead. True leadership is sacrifice. A willingness to give yourself fully to guiding your people."


Note that Saradomin seems to speak in a derisory, almost dismissive tone about Zaros. A little strange for describing a god-emperor that is roughly equal in power to Guthix and had conquered his people by force, no?
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01-Dec-2017 00:23:24

Snowskeeper
Mar Member 2019

Snowskeeper

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The supposed lethargy Saradomin is describing is the main reason that Zamorak, among others, felt it necessary to rebel. And Zaros himself has already admitted that the empire was a mistake, and that it led to a situation he didn't want to be in.

Saradomin isn't making any comments about Zaros' power, or, for that matter, his military proficiency. He's just pointing out, accurately, that Zaros mostly abandoned the project when he decided it wasn't going to work out. I don't agree that conviction is what Zaros lacks, exactly, but I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of it.

I can't believe you made me defend Saradomin.
A Zamorakian lorehound, probably.

01-Dec-2017 07:43:54 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2017 07:54:25 by Snowskeeper

Ancient Drew
Nov Member 2018

Ancient Drew

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Snowskeeper said:
I can't believe you made me defend Saradomin.
Lol. :D

I just find it a bit odd that he would say to the World Guardian that Zaros was lethargic and spoke in a somewhat disregarding tone, given his saying that Zaros claiming the stone would be as bad as Zamorak having it and his initial reaction to being called "Praetor Barbatus" while the pact went ahead. It seems as if there hadn't been any conflict between Saradominists and Zarosians back in the Second Age, and might even have had a peace agreement, yet obviously they had disagreements over philosophy. It might even have been through talks between the two where Zaros learned of the concept of morality.

I myself find no real problem with Saradomin (I know, just kill me), just that he comes off as a bit hotheaded and rushed. I'm even willing to overlook his arrogance as he's from Teragard and was likely one of the first mortals to ascend, and I'd like to see a bit more about his backstory before making any real judgement aside from deeming him a normal human being.
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01-Dec-2017 15:14:29

Cthris

Cthris

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Ancient Drew said:
It seems as if there hadn't been any conflict between Saradominists and Zarosians back in the Second Age, and might even have had a peace agreement, yet obviously they had disagreements over philosophy.


Calm yourself, Elongated Man lol :P

Like I said on the last page, we already have solid proof of Second age military conflict. Both from ingame and a Jmod quote from Mod Jack. You're also reading far too much into a throw-away comment. Saradomin has a hero's complex, of course he's going to talk dismissively about everyone else.

Anyways, here's the evidence again.

-The service of our lord took us on long expeditions, exterminating Saradominist filth, and the other generals had time to forget Viggora's Folly. Secretly, I planned to return. I could augment my fortress, add-higher levels and deeper dungeons, fortify the surrounding lands, make it a truly magnificent achievement, and thus earn respect for humankind.

(Declaration of Viggora)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original message details are unavailable.
Okay let me clarify.

I'm not saying that the Zarosian Empire had slaves. (Although I'm also not denying that they did.)

What I'm saying is that from Saradomin's POV, the happy, joyous people of Saradomiville were conquered militarily and suddenly seemed to be loyal to Zaros. The only explanation he can see is that they were enslaved, so that's what he told everyone.

Of course, conditions weren't great in the Empire anyway. Would you consider working in a Victorian workhouse slavery? What about a modern sweatshop?


Note how Saradomiville was conquered Militarily.

01-Dec-2017 16:25:41

Ancient Drew
Nov Member 2018

Ancient Drew

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The quote from Mod Jack stated that it was from Saradomin's POV. That's not necessarily proof that Zaros conquered Saradominists militarily. His followers did after he left, but he didn't himself. I admit he should have stayed longer, or should have made extra stints into the Empire to set the cardinals (many of whom were corrupt) straight to keep his order going, but it should be noted that Zaros himself didn't start wars. His followers, on the other hand, including those who remained loyal to him, had their own ideas and agendas to work towards. This became more apparent when the Mahjarrat joined and Zaros realised he had become like Mah and decided to go behind the scenes. It was also at that point when he recruited the ilujanka and worked on his nihil project on Freneskae. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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01-Dec-2017 17:55:09

MystLunaris
Jun Member 2017

MystLunaris

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Ancient Drew said:
The quote from Mod Jack stated that it was from Saradomin's POV. That's not necessarily proof that Zaros conquered Saradominists militarily.


...No the part from Saradomin's perspective was the people then becoming slaves, them being militarily conquered is supposed to be 100% fact.
As backed up by Viggora's statement, which could only refer to his actions in the service of Zaros as he was cursed when Zaros was defeated by Zamorak.

P.S
Thank you very much for those quotes Cthris.
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01-Dec-2017 18:40:28 - Last edited on 01-Dec-2017 18:41:51 by MystLunaris

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Cthris said:
Stuff


Makes me wonder why they stopped then? Clearly the idea of one side preparing to be aggressive to the other was not considered strange at the time of the coup, but actual combat between the two was likely not occurring (the rebuilt Flamtaer lacked any notable military presence or fortifications despite its proximity to Zarosian territory).

Perhaps the two had a truce at the time?

06-Dec-2017 15:40:35

Cthris

Cthris

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Hguoh said:

Perhaps the two had a truce at the time?

I'm assuming you're drawing your inferences here from the Virtus book. The problem with the Virtus book is that the Torva part is written obviously by Torva, who was writing this book as the wool was being pulled over his eyes.

The authenticity of the state of Flamtaer is very questionable since Flamtaer is being used as bait to draw the Zarosian forces away from Zaros. Remember that in Viggora's Declaration it is revealed that Viggora is the one who is supposed to root out the Saradominist from the area. As such, in order to spring the trap, Viggora had to let Flamtaer rebuild at the very least so that it could muster up some forces in order to occupy Torva's troops. If he had wiped it out or had not let it rebuild, there is a risk that Torva, once he sees that there is nothing there, will return home too soon.

One thing worth mentioning is that since Torva, and Nex, as his general and superior, fell for the lie that there was a large-scale military operation in Flamtaer. In my opinion, Nex is smart enough to not send a massive chunk of the Zarosian forces away from the city unless she believed the threat that there was a large-scale military operation was a real possibility. If there was a peace-treaty going on at the time, I suspect that Nex would want a higher level of proof than the word of Viggora, who, as his declaration reveals, was not in good standing with the other generals, since breaking a peace treaty would have serious implications. If she did pursue such verification she would have learned of the deception. Since she did not, I have to conclude, based on my own assumptions, that on some level Nex has to have been suspecting such an attack, implying there was no peace treaty.

06-Dec-2017 22:14:34

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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A few things:

Nex didn’t fall for anything. At the time of the coup, she was away building a fortress to contain a tremendous new power source. The fortress was later revealed to be her palace (modern: Temple of Ancients, better known as the God Wars Dungeon), while the crystals she was to receive from Zaros were the power source.

As for Viggora’s standing, keep in mind that he had the patronage of the Legatus Maximus: Zamorak. So long as he could claim Zamorak’s approval of the intelligence, there’s little reason for anybody to doubt it. Furthermore in Nex’s absence, Viggora is undeniably Torva’s superior. And as Torva was a fellow human, I see little reason to share the disdain for Vigorra nonhuman elites held.

Beyond that, keep in mind Torva’s eye witness account of the rebuilt Flamtaer. No patrols, no notable military, minimal defenses. Now I can understand your point that maybe Viggora was letting them develop that far, but I’d be bloody well stunned if Saradomin truthfully left a settlement so close to enemy territory so poorly defended just because the Zarosians left it be for a while. That is, unless he had some other guarantee of its safety. Ergo, the idea of a truce between the two ruler shops at the time.

06-Dec-2017 23:02:24

MystLunaris
Jun Member 2017

MystLunaris

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Hguoh said:
Perhaps the two had a truce at the time?


The wiki says
"Gods and by extension their empires make a pact that if any of their empires are attacked by the Zarosian Empire then an alliance of gods will declare war on Zaros. Unable to a defeat combined coalition of gods, Zarosian aggression is checked and a cold war begins amongst the various factions."

However, there isn't any source cited for this and I haven't seen anything about it in any documents.
I'd guess it was probably said by a mod somewhere if someone wants to go try and find the source.
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06-Dec-2017 23:14:53

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