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There Was No Naragi "Genocide"

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Kittyphantom
Jul Member 2008

Kittyphantom

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Short and to the point, copying a post I just made on another thread. Now, granted, I think there's only like one or two players who try claiming Saradomin's war on Naragun was a "genocide" (something which isn't even hinted). However, in the interest of avoiding misinformation on this topic (something, as a Saradominist, I would hate to see more widespread), I've seen fit to give my rebuttal a bit more public exposure.

Kittyphantom said:
Guthix and his community lived outside Askroth, within sight of it. In fact, Guthix was present there for the entirety of the centuries long war, witnessing the various events described in the Tribute to Guthix memories. Furthermore, his community are the ones who took in refugees from the neighboring, destroyed city of Askroth - Band after band of them, as the memory tells us.

So apparently refugees from the city could go right outside the city walls and feel safe, while an entire community sits there for centuries. In fact, it's only after Saradaomin abandons them to Tuska that Guthix says his neighbors have died as a result.

Now, as we know well, Saradomin rebuilt Askroth as his HQ on Naragun. What kind of "genocide" leaves an entire community alive on your very doorstep for centuries on end, even when that community is hosting band after band of refugees from the city you just destroyed?
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you[...]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

26-Jan-2017 07:49:17 - Last edited on 26-Jan-2017 08:20:44 by Kittyphantom

Jexel L
Mar Member 2011

Jexel L

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While I appreciate you're trying to stop the spread of misinformation, isn't this a little redundant? I think my thread and your reply to it are quite sufficient.
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26-Jan-2017 08:29:53

Kittyphantom
Jul Member 2008

Kittyphantom

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Jexel L said:
While I appreciate you're trying to stop the spread of misinformation, isn't this a little redundant? I think my thread and your reply to it are quite sufficient.


Hmm, maybe you're right. I'll think on that.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you[...]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

26-Jan-2017 08:58:16

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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The irony of claiming 'to stop the spread of misinformation' while spreading more misinformation. Let me begin by saying that I don't believe Saradomin's actions on Naragun would be considered a genocide.

That being said, the claim that 'Guthix and his community lived outside Askroth, within sight of it' is an unsupported claim, if not an outright falsehood. Let me explain:

The memories indicate that Guthix and his community could see Saradomin's fortress on the horizon from their refugee camp, but also states that they had to be informed of Askroth's destruction:

...since dawn in the refugee camp, and I was exhausted. The news from Askroth became worse with each band to arrive. The great city of Askroth was no more.

If Guthix had truly been able to see Askroth from where he lived, then he would not have needed to learn of its destruction from the people who had fled the city. He would have been able to see that the city was destroyed before the first band of people arrived at their refugee camp.

As such, all the memories confirm is that the fortress Saradomin built over the ruins of Askroth was so much larger/taller/bigger than the city that it replaced that it could be seen on the horizon when Askroth could not.

But don't let something like an analysis of the memories get in the way of your narrative.

26-Jan-2017 13:05:18

Giras
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2012

Giras

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Just because Saradomin fled before finishing the job doesn't mean he wasn't hunting them across their world. From Guthixian Memories #3: "
The giant's army
was marching downriver. Our cities were assembling armies of their own, but I didn’t see how they would stand a..."
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26-Jan-2017 15:53:10

Healthorg

Healthorg

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Hguoh said:
the claim that 'Guthix and his community lived outside Askroth, within sight of it' is an unsupported claim, if not an outright falsehood.

The memories indicate that Guthix and his community could see Saradomin's fortress on the horizon from their refugee camp, but also states that they had to be informed of Askroth's destruction:

If Guthix had truly been able to see Askroth from where he lived, then he would not have needed to learn of its destruction from the people who had fled the city. He would have been able to see that the city was destroyed before the first band of people arrived at their refugee camp.

As such, all the memories confirm is that the fortress Saradomin built over the ruins of Askroth was so much larger/taller/bigger than the city that it replaced that it could be seen on the horizon when Askroth could not.


Your interpretation is illogical and renders your argument on the same level as the very thing you're trying to argue against - unsupported. (Your rudeness and spite is uncalled for, as well, but I'll say nothing more on that.)

The interpretation being that Guthix could not see Askroth from the camp's location, therefore rendering the claim that Guthix's community was outside of Askroth false. However, this fact harms your claim.

Guthix's community was close enough that they had to relocate to a refugee camp - if they were not harboring said refugee camp within its territory to begin with. We can not prove the latter, but common sense says that they were close enough to the carnage near Askroth to have to relocate.

While, yes, "within sight" is an error of distance that we can not clarify, it does not harm the initial argument and does not register as a falsehood; the camp was close enough to receive news of Askroth and witness Saradomin's fortress on the horizon, meaning Guthix's community was even closer and formerly accessible, but not within sight.

26-Jan-2017 15:59:43 - Last edited on 26-Jan-2017 16:02:03 by Healthorg

Ancient Drew
Nov Member 2018

Ancient Drew

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I wouldn't say genocide as it points towards Saradomin organising the killings of all the Naragi and Guthix's daughter Aagi being squashed deliberately. At worst this was a temper tantrum which ended with him unintentionally attracting Tuska and Skargaroth who did the actual killing and real destruction. He actually tried to help the Naragi once they arrived, but Tuska ran so wild he couldn't do anything. Prepare for hell on RuneScape in Naval Cataclysm!

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26-Jan-2017 17:51:57

Hazeel

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Saradomin was at war for hundreds of years before the other Gods even showed up. How many years did it take Zamorak to kill and banish the Cthonians? 20. The Cthonians are powerful creatures bred for battle. The Naragi are not a warrior race. How many do you think were truly alive after hundreds of years? ...Honestly, the only reason there were survivors that long to begin with is because they hid.

Tuska deserves blame for destroying the world, Naragun, but it's obvious that its people, the Naragi, would be nearing extinction before she even showed up. Saradomin kill them during the war--but honestly, given how one sided this is--Saradomin and his armies VS a ragtag gang of farmers--"massacre" feels like a more appropiate term.

Genocide, battle, whatever you wanna call it...the result is the same...Saradomin killed off the Naragi race over the course of several hundred years. Hardly different than when Zamorak killed off the Aviansie. There is no room for debate on whether it happened or not--only whether it was justified.
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26-Jan-2017 18:10:34

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Healthorg said:
Guthix's community was close enough that they had to relocate to a refugee camp - if they were not harboring said refugee camp within its territory to begin with. We can not prove the latter, but common sense says that they were close enough to the carnage near Askroth to have to relocate.


Your entire correction post relies on the idea that Guthix's community had to relocate, but the memories never state this. Rather, given that Guthix learned of Askroth's destruction from the bands of Naragi fleeing the city, it appears that Guthix's community became a refugee camp as they accepted refugees.

Nice try though.

26-Jan-2017 18:35:31

Ascertes
Sep Member 2018

Ascertes

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Genocide is the elimination of a group of people base on race, ethnicity, religion, etc. Nothing points to Saradomin wanting to destroy the Naragi as a race. Thus, not genocide. -Ascertes, King of all the Hallowlands and the Ever-Chosen of Saradomin.

27-Jan-2017 00:12:32

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