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Tumeken and His 4 Facets

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HalloweenFox
Aug Member 2018

HalloweenFox

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None of the young gods can create new life, as Zaros has made very clear, but both Zaros and Seren have demonstrated that facets and avatars can be created by splitting their own being like how Seren created Haluned and Eluned from different parts of herself or how Zaros put a shard of himself into Nex.

Likewise, the creation of the 4 minor desert pantheon gods, Apmeken, Crondis, Het, and Scabaras, should only have been possible if Tumeken had done it by dividing himself. Depending on when the 4 were created, this could imply one of two things:

Scenario 1: If Tumeken created them before he sacrificed himself, then his supposed Tier 5 godhood would likely have been significantly higher prior to splitting himself, as seen by how Seren is noticeably more powerful in The Light Within and Sliske's Endgame the more parts you use to restore her.

On the other hand, when Seren fully split herself into multiple parts to avoid Guthix's Edicts, there was a pretty big explosion which resulted in the crater Prifddinas is located in. If Tumeken split himself in a similar way into the 4 minor gods (and likely the Kharid-ib), it would make sense that there might have been a similarly massive explosion, which is exactly what happened at the end of the Kharidian–Zarosian War when Tumeken supposedly sacrificed himself. Therefore,

Scenario 2: If the 4 came into existence after Tumeken sacrificed himself, then they'd all essentially need to be sacrificed for Tumeken to reform.

SO

Is there any definite proof that the 4 existed before Tumeken died/hibernated, like any known instance of Tumeken interacting directly with Apmeken, Crondis, Het, or Scabaras, or an instance of any of those 4 interacting with Amascut before she went insane?

22-Mar-2017 22:56:24 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 09:04:00 by HalloweenFox

HalloweenFox
Aug Member 2018

HalloweenFox

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On another note, I may be overthinking this but if Scenario 2 turns out to be correct, it would mean Tumeken's background shows some pretty frequent and strong connections to Seren (and maybe to a lesser extent Zaros).

*So far the only gods who've demonstrated the ability to split themselves into new, completely independent beings are Tumeken and the crystal-based Seren and Zaros.
*If Scenario 2 is correct, Tumeken's method for splitting himself was exactly the same as Seren's.


>If this is true, Tumeken would have demonstrated powers and practices shared only by Seren and Zaros.


*Zaros and Seren are both aspects of light and darkness
*Tumeken is heavily associated with light, and not the figurative 'holiness and wisdom' type of light Saradomin commonly associates with himself.


>Tumeken and Seren share similar aspects.


*Freneskae is the homeworld of both Seren and Zaros.
*Zaros's descriptions of his travels throughout the cosmos imply that Freneskae is essentially on the opposite side of the universe as Gielinor.
*Icthlarin and Amascut recruited the Mahjarrat on Freneskae while searching for allies to help fight in the Kharidian - Zarosian War.


>Tumeken's backstory may be connected in some way to Freneskae as well, and by extension Zaros and Seren.
(The possibility that Icthlarin and Amascut had found Freneskae completely by accident while searching for allies is incredibly unrealistic considering they'd have passed countless other worlds with potential allies long before reaching Freneskae, suggesting that they (and likely Tumeken as well) somehow knew about the planet beforehand.)

22-Mar-2017 22:56:31 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 23:04:28 by HalloweenFox

Naval Pupper
Jan Gold Premier Club Member 2019

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I definitely always saw it as sketchy that Amascut and Icthlarin went right on over to Freneskae, all the way on the other side of the universe, especially since they're lower-tier gods and the further a distance you travel between worlds, the more energy needed. They HAD to have known some stuff about the place beforehand, which is very sketchy in my opinion. Mods pls notice me

22-Mar-2017 23:12:31

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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I quite like scenario 2. Why? Because it does wonders explaining why Amascut's madness would drive her to hate her other non-Icthlarin siblings so much. I mean, Icthlarin makes sense, he was daddy's favorite, but the others only really made sense insofar as hurting them inconvenienced or hurt Icthlarin.

But if we assume they are fragments of Tumeken that came about from his sacrifice, her actions suddenly make much more sense. As walking talking reminders of her father's death, it's understandable that she wouldn't be too fond of them (with her madness turning that into outright malice). Similarly, it explains why she'd go through so much effort to imprison them instead of killing them: she needs them to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

22-Mar-2017 23:26:31 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 23:28:06 by Hguoh

Rifleavenger

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Hguoh said:
I quite like scenario 2. Why? Because it does wonders explaining why Amascut's madness would drive her to hate her other non-Icthlarin siblings so much. I mean, Icthlarin makes sense, he was daddy's favorite, but the others only really made sense insofar as hurting them inconvenienced or hurt Icthlarin.

But if we assume they are fragments of Tumeken that came about from his sacrifice, her actions suddenly make much more sense. As walking talking reminders of her father's death, it's understandable that she wouldn't be too fond of them (with her madness turning that into outright malice). Similarly, it explains why she'd go through so much effort to imprison them instead of killing them: she needs them to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
Would that potentially mean that her hunger for souls is less out of a desire for personal power, and more to obtain the "glue" that will be needed to reform Tumeken from his component pieces?

Also, the Dream of Tumeken indicates that the additional four were created when he saw "the failings of his children" though "Icthlarin's return to grace did some renew him." But the "return to grace" in question was the betrayal of the Mahjarrat, spun as a conscious choice by Icthlarin in the myth. What happened immediately after that? Desert explosion.

On the other hand, Senliten was pre-explosion 2nd age I thought, and she mentions Scarabras. Though she also refers to the Ritual of the Mahjarrat, which later lore seems to imply wasn't performed while they served Icthlarin (it being one of the things that led to to switch sides to Zaros). Jagex be lorebreaking again?

22-Mar-2017 23:55:58 - Last edited on 22-Mar-2017 23:58:30 by Rifleavenger

Wahisietel
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Senliten confirms that all four of the Tumeken facet demigods were around before Tumeken sacrificed himself.

Amascut's madness was probably a combination of neglect from Tumeken, encountering Mah, Tumeken's "death", and Elidinis's departure at the end of the Third Age.
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23-Mar-2017 01:40:17

Elf of Seren
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In Sliske's book in Book of the God's it details the Khardian God's leading the Stern Judges. Idk if it includes the aspects, but I always assumed that it did. Also, I believe Senliten said something about them existing beforehand.

Edit: Nvmd lol. Wahi beat me there.

Wahisietel said:

Amascut's madness was probably a combination of neglect from Tumeken, encountering Mah, Tumeken's "death", and Elidinis's departure at the end of the Third Age.


Ka from Halloween 2015 admits that coming back from Freneskae changed her, and that Tumeken's suicide is what set her off.
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23-Mar-2017 03:04:37 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 03:05:46 by Elf of Seren

Amascut
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I've been theorizing for quite awhile that Tumeken split himself into the Aspects. We don't have definitive confirmation the Aspects were around before his explosion, but it would make sense that Tumeken's Dream could have taken place a few days before the assault began - it's likely the Menaphites were aware of the attack and Tumeken planned for the worst. Splitting 4 pieces of his soul (the Egyptians believed there were 5, the Sheut, the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, and the Ib) off and creating life from them would be a good way to "horcrux" himself, and then with just his Ib left, he "exploded" and wiped out the invaders when hope seemed lost. The Kharid-Ib was likely formed from what remained after the explosion.

I've been pretty widely spreading the idea that reforming Tumeken is possible and requires the four Aspects and the Kharid Ib, and I think Amascut is trying to stop this from happening due to her machinations against the Aspects.

Since we now know that Amascut and Icthlarin were formed from an actual Cat and Dog (I still despise this lore), only the Aspects are the outliers, per say. It would stand to reason they are a part of Tumeken fully!

Regarding Freneskae - yes, it is indeed on the opposite end of the universe from Gielinor. It was the start point, and Gielinor was the end for the Elders. As to how they found it? I'm personally thinking something to do with Jas herself - after all, she is in the desert.
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23-Mar-2017 03:19:56 - Last edited on 17-May-2017 05:09:51 by Amascut

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Amascut said:
I've been pretty widely spreading the idea that reforming Tumeken is possible and requires the four Aspects and the Kharid Ib, and I think Amascut is trying to stop this from happening due to her machinations against the Aspects.


Personally, I'd say she's actually acting to the opposite effect: she's trying to get her dad back.

She goes to great lengths to secure the Kharid-Ib when it had just been laying around in the Al'Kharid palace, ignored by the other desert gods since who knows when. She even states that in some ways she's been searching for it all her life.

She purposefully traps, imprisons, or frames her other siblings (with the exception of Icthlarin) which not only leaves said siblings in a position where she can come and reclaim them later (as opposed to just killing them), but also drives the desert people to dislike or distrust them (so if they would, for example, eventually disappear nobody would really mourn them).

Heck, us 'freeing' the other desert gods after she got the Ib could just be her letting us the gather up and bring to her (when we eventually confront her) the other bits of Tumeken so that she can sacrifice them to remake her Daddy.

I think, in her own twisted way, Amascut is trying to help Tumeken, but has little concern for collateral damage along the way or if her dad actually wants to be put back together.

I mean, even if we go with the idea that the other desert gods existed prior to Tumeken's explosion, Amascut could very well be trying to gather up the last dregs of her father's power so that she can transfer them back to the final remnant of his being (the Ib) to restore his physical form (she might even be nuts enough to send the power within herself and/or Icthlarin back to him as well).

23-Mar-2017 03:56:10 - Last edited on 23-Mar-2017 04:01:19 by Hguoh

Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

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haluned and eluned are completely new beings, whereas the minor desert gods existed before they were turned into gods, much like most of the guardians of guthix, although quite a bit more powerful Carn

23-Mar-2017 07:14:03

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