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Lore-wise, how powerful is PC?

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AesirWarrior
Nov Member 2017

AesirWarrior

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A Mighty said:
As powerful as a T7 god.

We're a T7 god in all but name, as Jagex doesn't want the term "god" to be associated with our character. But it has been confirmed that the power Guthix gave us in TWW made us immortal (in the RS sense; we can't die of old age but we can die in battle). So I'd say T7 gods are a fair comparison.


T7 are not gods. They are on the scale, but that does not make them gods.

Original message details are unavailable.
Tier 7 is a kind of 'Honorary Mention' tier, with beings who are reflections of gods or fractions of gods. To give you an idea, the Bandos Avatar, the Avatars of Creation and Destruction, and Scabaras/Het/Crondis/Apmeken are here, among others.


- Mod Osborne

We could qualify as T7 as we have been imbued with part of Guthix's essence, but we are not gods. T7 doesn't really have a defined "power level" either as far as we know, a spoonful of divine energy would likely make something T7. It fits the definition.

-------------------------

I'd also prefer if we didn't fill this thread (or the lore forums at all) with argument of how "we're as strong as the plot demans", "we have plot armour", "depends on the writer" or other Doylist arguments. The lore forum should IMO strive to use an in-universe perspective as much as possible.

For example:

- Guthix died because he believed blah blah gods blah blah wanted to die etc.

not

- Guthix died because the plot demanded it.

There's nothing wrong with the second explanation of course, it is correct, but if we only offered explanations external to Runescape's story then... this forum wouldn't exist.

That does not mean we can't break the 4th wall or anything, this isn't some roleplaying nonsense. I just think that we should remember that in the context of this forum a Watsonian perspective is preferrable to a Doylist one. The latter has its place of course, but it should be avoided when possible.
-
I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?
- We call it being a hero.

02-Aug-2017 00:50:17 - Last edited on 02-Aug-2017 00:50:29 by AesirWarrior

Hazeel

Hazeel

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AesirWarrior said:
I'd also prefer if we didn't fill this thread (or the lore forums at all) with argument of how "we're as strong as the plot demans", "we have plot armour", "depends on the writer" or other Doylist arguments. The lore forum should IMO strive to use an in-universe perspective as much as possible.


Unfortunately this always devolves back into "arguments" that consist of nothing more than claiming everything that doesn't reflect the players argument is non-canon.

J Mod quotes aren't canon because Gameplay > Mod quotes

The game also isn't canon because Gameplay =/= Lore

The lore from books and NPCs are also not canon because that NPC doesn't agree with me, so he's a dirty liar. J Mods are impartial and can thus be trusted.

And so the cycle is repeated.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

02-Aug-2017 03:45:49

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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AesirWarrior said:
I'd also prefer if we didn't fill this thread (or the lore forums at all) with argument of how "we're as strong as the plot demans", "we have plot armour", "depends on the writer" or other Doylist arguments. The lore forum should IMO strive to use an in-universe perspective as much as possible.


That'd be helpful, if it weren't for the fact that 'plot armor' has become the in-universe explanation due to the events of TWW and SE.

We aren't affected by divine powers enough to matter because 'World Guardian power.'
We can suddenly become ludicrously stronger at the drop of a hat because 'World Guardian power.'

Being the World Guardian functions, for all purposes, as plot armor: it conveniently does what we need it to do to facilitate our success. In-universe, this makes some sense since you'd expect Guthix to want to kit out his replacement as best as he could for the assigned task.

There's some limits to how far this can go (i.e. we can't stop a non-withered Elder God (Jas) from smiting us if they really want to and dragonkin and dragonfire breath can still hurt us plenty bad if we don't prepare for it), but not many.

02-Aug-2017 16:57:39 - Last edited on 02-Aug-2017 17:02:13 by Hguoh

SixOfOne
Jan Member 2019

SixOfOne

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Hguoh said:
AesirWarrior said:
I'd also prefer if we didn't fill this thread (or the lore forums at all) with argument of how "we're as strong as the plot demans", "we have plot armour", "depends on the writer" or other Doylist arguments. The lore forum should IMO strive to use an in-universe perspective as much as possible.


That'd be helpful, if it weren't for the fact that 'plot armor' has become the in-universe explanation due to the events of TWW and SE.

We aren't affected by divine powers enough to matter because 'World Guardian power.'
We can suddenly become ludicrously stronger at the drop of a hat because 'World Guardian power.'

Being the World Guardian functions, for all purposes, as plot armor: it conveniently does what we need it to do to facilitate our success. In-universe, this makes some sense since you'd expect Guthix to want to kit out his replacement as best as he could for the assigned task.

There's some limits to how far this can go (i.e. we can't stop a non-withered Elder God (Jas) from smiting us if they really want to and dragonkin and dragonfire breath can still hurt us plenty bad if we don't prepare for it), but not many.


With regards to those examples you gave, the 'world guardian' status doesn't apply. The status given by Guthix only defends from attacks using divine power, and can only effect T2 and below. The Dragonkin are extremely strong and their breath is not divine in nature, and the Elder Gods are Elder Gods. Everything else I agree with. The PC has long established plot armour simply due to being the PC. We can't permanently die, so what applies to D&D applies here- If something has stats, we'll find a way to kill it. Even if we don't manage it alone, but death holds no meaningful penalty. It's why I'm against having boss fights against things like Mahjarrat, who lorewise are meant to be much stronger than us.
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes

02-Aug-2017 18:00:22

Solanumtinkr
Jul Member 2009

Solanumtinkr

Posts: 22,232Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The Player Character has an advantage over others in that we seem to soak up knowledge like a sponge. We are able to achieve whatever we put out minds to and getting to the highest teris of a "professions" just takes time, we'll get there eventually.

We're nosy and go everywhere and have a knack for uncovering things, some of which people wanted to remain hidden. This is one of the ways we gather knowledge thought lost. We're like a self propelled Dragonkin lamp that wants to know everything. And steal all the shinies we can.

We tend to make friends amongst those typically called the underdog. You can call it a plot device, but if there is knowledge and rare items to be had then they are the ones most leikly to part with them if you successfully champion their hopeless cause.

For some reason Death let's us come back, and that is canon, the excuse is "coz Guthix said so", which I call BS on. There is probably a simple explanation that does not require prophesies or destiny but just a case of something odd that makes us more trouble than we'd be worth. Maybe the afterlife told Harold to take a hike the first time he tried to harvest us?

Whatever our "power" that is where it can be found. The divine protection is just another tool in our arsenal but not the source. We were already who we were before Guthix stuck in his oar. What knowledge and skills we have gathered along with the rare items does make us a match for a Mahjarrat when we are prepared for it. If not, if humans were incapable of rising to the occasion, not only would there be no humans left after the 3rd age but then we'd have been dealt with a long time ago. And all of that is something hard to quantity.

There has been a steadily rising trend of "powerful "humans, when once they were thought of as a weak waste of space good just for food, slave labour and canonfodder. Is it any surprise that the latest iteration can kick ass and take names? And here's me fresh out of bubblegum.
The purpose of adventure is to shine light into dark places,
Poke monsters with a sharp stick, Then steal anything that isn't nailed down!
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02-Aug-2017 18:34:15

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Something I just noticed...if you try to protect Seren and challenge Zamorak, he points out that he's no longer a God, that the WG powers wouldn't protect them from a Mahjarrat, and basically threatens to kick our ass if we stand in his way.

This heavily re-enforces my belief that the WG powers makes us more than capable of beating the Gods in their divine state.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

03-Aug-2017 00:15:04

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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SixOfOne said:
With regards to those examples you gave, the 'world guardian' status doesn't apply.


Except that, given what we were presented with in SE (World Guardian mode), the World Guardian status can apply to any situation if the right unspecified conditions are met, just not the divine protection bit (which Jas can overcome).

Hazeel said:
Something I just noticed...if you try to protect Seren and challenge Zamorak, he points out that he's no longer a God, that the WG powers wouldn't protect them from a Mahjarrat, and basically threatens to kick our ass if we stand in his way.

This heavily re-enforces my belief that the WG powers makes us more than capable of beating the Gods in their divine state.


Zamorak threaten us? To bastardize a Raptor quote:

Heard you wanted to fight me Zamorak. Not impressed. Without your godhood, you're just a Mahjarrat. Beat lots of Mahjarrat.

Jokes aside, I'd say that a Zamorak without godhood could very well defeat us, but I significantly doubt his ability to either do so in a timely enough manner to still try to take down Seren before she escapes (and we'd just come back to life if he killed us anyway), or take us (Seren and our character) both down should we made a concerted effort against him.

03-Aug-2017 01:29:43 - Last edited on 03-Aug-2017 01:46:13 by Hguoh

AesirWarrior
Nov Member 2017

AesirWarrior

Posts: 1,051Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hazeel said:
Something I just noticed...if you try to protect Seren and challenge Zamorak, he points out that he's no longer a God, that the WG powers wouldn't protect them from a Mahjarrat, and basically threatens to kick our ass if we stand in his way.

This heavily re-enforces my belief that the WG powers makes us more than capable of beating the Gods in their divine state.


What? I'm not sure I understand. How are you drawing *that* conclusion? All this confirms is that as a god he can't harm us, which we've always known. We have the power to defend against god-magic, but that doesn't mean we have the power to actually beat them. Defensive powers =/= Offensive powers. If Captain America shield blocks Thor's hammer does that make him capable of beating him in a fight? No.

If we were somehow capable of beating a god, I think that'd violate Guthix's message in TWW.

Someone with the power to defend against the gods, but not the power to be one


Now if we were powerful enough to beat the gods in single combat then we'd have the power to be one, surely? We'd have to be pretty close to them in power. Yes, we don't have divine energy but that really doesn't matter. Guthix didn't want us to have the power to be a god, doesn't matter if we're technically not "ascended". If we're as powerful as the gods then we have the power to be a god.
-
I have noticed your kind does tend to blindly stumble forward towards danger simply because it exists. What is your word for that?
- We call it being a hero.

03-Aug-2017 02:43:45

Hazeel

Hazeel

Posts: 6,701Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
AesirWarrior said:
What? I'm not sure I understand. How are you drawing *that* conclusion?


WG feels confident that they can beat Zamorak.

Zamorak disagrees but only because he is currently a mortal.

Realizing this, WG backs down.

To me this feels like a mutual agreement between both parties that the WG is capable of beating Zamorak as a God, but as a mortal, Zamorak would likely win.

AesirWarrior said:
If we were somehow capable of beating a god, I think that'd violate Guthix's message in TWW.

Someone with the power to defend against the gods, but not the power to be one


Now if we were powerful enough to beat the gods in single combat then we'd have the power to be one, surely?


To quote you:

AesirWarrior said:
What? I'm not sure I understand. How are you drawing *that* conclusion?


Zamorak beat Zaros. Guthix beat Skargaroth. Bandos beat Jododu Otoku. There was a God that got beaten by an ape. None of them were Gods.

No, you don't need to be a God to defeat a God. You don't even need to be equal in power. None of the referenced characters were and, in our case, we would only be defeating a gimped version of a God.

Lastly, if Guthix's problem was power rather than divinity, the Godless would be against Vorago and the Dragonkin and defeating them would be part of Guthix's mission, which is not the case.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

03-Aug-2017 04:02:07

Deltaslug

Deltaslug

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@Hazeel ...
dear god ...how do I break your comment ...
True, no, you don't need to be a god to kill a god.
Guthix, Sliske, Zamorak, and the Dragonkin all had an Elder Artifact when they slew a god.
When Bandos killed Jododu Otoku, Jododu was at his/her absolute lowest power because all their energy was into protecting the planet (like Guthix's anti-god barrier), but Jododu wasn't even close in power to Guthix.
To top off Guthix's situation ... he wanted to die.
We're uncertain to the full scenario behind Marimbo's ascension. We know that there was a drinking contest, and that there was some sort of horn (possible the Elder Horn). Next thing when Marimbo woke up, she was no longer just a gorilla, but now a goddess of partying. So we don't know if she really drank a god under the table to the point the god died of alcohol poisoning, or if the god (similar to Guthix) had grown weary of the constant partying (or even godhood) and intentionally lost the contest or intentionally transferred their power to Marimbo.

The closest we maybe see to a mortal killing a god in a head on fight is if during Nomad's Elegy, you let Death do the final blow to Gielinor. But even then, it would be hard to call Death a 'mortal', and Gielinor's status as a 'god' could also be in question (a stitched together being of random souls certainly might have had the power of a god ... )
Wight Nomad was jokingly called a god by Sliske (to also count in his little Scoreboard contest). True, Wight Nomad had a fragment of the World Guardian power in him, and was still one of the more powerful battlemages around. But to be a 'god' in his own right?

03-Aug-2017 12:32:09 - Last edited on 03-Aug-2017 12:36:35 by Deltaslug

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