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Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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LOL. No more "researches" is need in Australia anyway. No more dead horse beating is needed. They have already declared loot boxes "gambling" a year ago, but it will never be "illegal gambling".

The Aussie governmens has made it very clear their stance is against underground gambling, particularly the big ones, not the kinds that operates in a garage or a basement. And they are not fighting against loot boxes at all. They are pushing hard against illegal 3rd party gambling sites who typically use virtual items as gambling chips.

What that means is only games with real money player trading support and make a cut of the real money proceeds may have a chance to get a call. :D

19-Sep-2018 17:02:02

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Tophurious said:
I Lack Heart said:
Tophurious said:
Loot boxes will never go away

That is true, but the game have to be rated adults only by that point, meaning Jagex cant continue their predatory gambling habits and many countries require permission to run gambling.


I don't believe an AO rating will happen as a result of loot boxes either. people are more scared of boobies than gambling.


People are not even scared of boobies or any 18+ content actually.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/13/majority-parents-let-kids-play-18-rated-games-reveals-survey-7712123/

Parents nowadays don't even care if they catch their kids watching x rated videos. :D

19-Sep-2018 17:23:28

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
They have already declared loot boxes "gambling" a year ago, but it will never be "illegal gambling".

You hit the jackpot, its not illegal...yet, anything that involves real money payments is included, not just ones that has no cashout option because thats not the problem, the problem is that its psychological gambling.

I know people are eager to defend predatory gambling targeted at children, get them hooked early and you dont even have to watch them struggle rest of their lifes.

Dilbert2001 said:

People are not even scared of boobies or any 18+ content actually.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/13/majority-parents-let-kids-play-18-rated-games-reveals-survey-7712123/

Parents nowadays don't even care if they catch their kids watching x rated videos. :D

Okey so your point is that games and activities dont have to be regulated because parents simply dont care anymore? I mean geez, why do we regulate alcohol either, some parents dont care. There is a reason they dont let you gamble in vegas if you are under 21, no matter how much your parents do or dont care.


Playing rock-paper-scissor for candies is gambling. Playing Monopoly is gambling too. That's what "gambling" is called in countries with 18th Century Legislative system. However, modern day parents know best, they even "gamble" together with their 8 year old kids for fun. :D

Regulation is the job of the governments. When the world's governments say no need, then no need. Simple as that. :D:D:D

19-Sep-2018 20:13:10

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Playing rock-paper-scissor for candies is gambling. Playing Monopoly is gambling too. That's what "gambling" is called in countries with 18th Century Legislative system. However, modern day parents know best, they even "gamble" together with their 8 year old kids for fun. :D

Regulation is the job of the governments. When the world's governments say no need, then no need. Simple as that. :D:D:D

Playing rps for candies hardly triggers any dopamine and frankly never heard that kids do that in first place, second, monopoly is not gambling, you dont need to pay real money to get into the game do you? Nor is the rewards even something kids would desire.

Releasing limited edition shiny things better not miss out promotions how ever are predatory gambling designed to force kids or gambling addicts to make haste decision, spending more than they can afford because of some 'dont miss out' promotion.

And lastly thats exactly the thing, world governments have started to recognize that this is a serious problem.

I seriously hope you are just trolling or want to be moderator this badly.


In Australia, all these are "gambling" by definition of their Victorian laws but just not illegal gambling.

The World governments? Who and what have they done? And what are they really investigating?

Read the news carefully. They are not just investigation loot boxes alone. They are actually looking for real world crimes via real world trading with real world criminals. It does not take any loot boxes to be illegal when even a free player get some pixels in game and gamble it over an illegal site. That's the kind of ILLEGAL GAMBLING they are going after.

I wonder where all those laughingstocks who kept crying the same loot boxes bills, UK petitions, etc have gone? Politicians always try to look busy but nothing is done 99% of the time. :D

19-Sep-2018 22:45:54 - Last edited on 20-Sep-2018 00:15:47 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

In Australia, all these are "gambling" by definition of their Victorian laws but just not illegal gambling.

The World governments? Who and what have they done? And what are they really investigating?

Read the news carefully. They are not just investigation loot boxes alone. They are actually looking for real world crimes via real world trading with real world criminals. It does not take any loot boxes to be illegal when even a free player get some pixels in game and gamble it over an illegal site. That's the kind of ILLEGAL GAMBLING they are going after.

I wonder where all those laughingstocks who kept crying the same loot boxes bills, UK petitions, etc have gone? Politic

Too tired to write you an
novel
. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGJx_QwN4S8


Good thing you realized you are writing a
novel
, a
fiction
.

This is what the the governments are investigating:

"We are increasingly concerned with the risks being posed by the blurring of lines between gambling and other forms of digital entertainment such as video gaming," the statement reads. "Concerns in this area have manifested themselves in controversies relating to skin betting, loot boxes, social casino gaming and the use of gambling themed content within video games available to children."


Not just loot boxes, but anything that can be wagered offsite or in game are under investigation. And it certainly include staking a Scythe of Vitur against other's Abyssal Whip in Duel Arena, or in an third party website. Obviously, we know these items don't come from TH or other forms of loot boxes. :D

20-Sep-2018 16:45:29

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

Good thing you realized you are writing a
novel
, a
fiction
.

This is what the the governments are investigating:

"We are increasingly concerned with the risks being posed by the blurring of lines between gambling and other forms of digital entertainment such as video gaming," the statement reads. "Concerns in this area have manifested themselves in controversies relating to skin betting, loot boxes, social casino gaming and the use of gambling themed content within video games available to children."


Not just loot boxes, but anything that can be wagered offsite or in game are under investigation. And it certainly include staking a Scythe of Vitur against other's Abyssal Whip in Duel Arena, or in an third party website. Obviously, we know these items don't come from TH or other forms of loot boxes. :D

So you are implying that anything from th-tokens to rares has no value in runescape that could not be gambled on 3rd party site? Im pretty sure that 200million purple price is real ingame currency and not just a cosmetic number.

Hardly point in arguing with you tho, you have deiced to go full brown nose mode for what ever reason so i will continue to argue against predatory gambling targeted at children and you can do what ever you do to become moderator.


TH tokens, rares as well as other items one can get not from TH such as Scythe of Vitur will be treated the same under this investigation. That's the fact. And Jagex found illegal gambling was in OSRS, not RS3.

"The key focus for the parties involved appears to be tackling unlicensed third-party websites offering illegal gambling linked to popular video games".


https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-09-17-15-european-gambling-regulators-unite-to-tackle-loot-box-threat

20-Sep-2018 18:25:38 - Last edited on 21-Sep-2018 02:04:38 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
UrekMazino said:
TH won't be categorised as gambling, mostly since you can't sell the items/xp you earned for IRL money, well not legally anyways.


Well that depends on the country. Like for the Netherlands probably not but Belgium on the other hand have hit all lootboxes even ones you can't "cashout" like in Overwatch. Plus all the companies affected don't claim to allow these skin gambling sites but were still forced to remove them.

But it's with EA being the only company willing to fight the uphill battle for their lootboxes it's looking like TH's days are numbered. So thank you EA for starting the whole controversy and letting Belgium potentially make an example of you. We salute your sacrifice.


Check out which "holier than thou" country in the virtual world of their "anti-gambling stakeholders" but in real life a bona fide Lowest Common Denominator is not in that list of the 16 World Governments?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-09-17-15-european-gambling-regulators-unite-to-tackle-loot-box-threat

If your answer is Belgium, you are absolutely correct. Belgium is at odds with the entire world. They don't even support the real EU anti-gambling efforts of sanctioning and potentially regulating 3rd party illegal gambling sites, in other words, real world CRIMINALS.
Good joke. :D:D:D

What this means is EU is in favor of tackling the root of the gambling evil, that is, obviously illegal 3rd party gambling sites. There won't be any EU regulation on loot boxes alone, but there is a good chance that some regulations on 3rd party real world gambling and trading sites will be under discussions. PEGI's adoption on ESRB's in game purchase label also pretty much sealed the fate of loot box "regulations".

Besides, what happened to the Belgium "actions" on loot boxes? All talk and still no actions after almost half a year. :D

26-Sep-2018 16:18:54 - Last edited on 26-Sep-2018 16:47:35 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Nead said:
I Lack Heart said:
There is a reason they dont let you gamble in vegas if you are under 21, no matter how much your parents do or dont care.


Exactly this. I had to perform an arrest on a minor whom repeatedly entered the casino underage. Policies and laws aren't just set for fun.

Eat your peas and drink your milk, kids.



Excatly this. That's why Jagex banned their once favorite streamer and player mod who engaged in RWT with a illegal 3rd party gambling site. They also restricted Duel Arena in OSRS, a potential loop holes for the kind of truly illegal gambling the world's governments are beating up on.

Meanwhile, TH is not real gambling and have no real world impacts. That's why Jagex is business as usual all the way with TH. :D

26-Sep-2018 16:51:32

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Draco Burnz said:
UrekMazino said:
TH won't be categorised as gambling, mostly since you can't sell the items/xp you earned for IRL money, well not legally anyways.


Pretty much.

This is just another futile attempt to get rid of TH...


Loot boxes can only become more favorable to video game developers once when the World draws the line between gaming, "gambling" simulations, and illegal gambling among other forms of real world crimes. By then, Steam and such will be forced to shift their real money player trading initiatives back to loot boxes... or instead of associating themselves to shady illegal 3rd party sites, Steam can real world trade their skins with "healthy" companies like what Overwatch is currently doing with Kellogg - buy Kelogg pop-tarts, get a golden Loot Box. :D

27-Sep-2018 02:00:18

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Meanwhile, TH is not real gambling and have no real world impacts. That's why Jagex is business as usual all the way with TH. :D

What is the difference between battlefront 2 lootboxes vs th? Both are pay to win, targeted towards children and has a random chance element.

Its the red and purple slot items that create dopamine junkie children, possibly leading into real gambling problems when they reach adulthood.

Its usually the gambling addicts that speak heavily against removing things like th or even turning them to adults only.


Pay to win is not illegal whatsoever to any government of any country. Real life is always pay to win, always, but it is obviously not illegal in any part of the world.

Only the GOVERNMENTS can define/prosecute/decide what is legal or not. Nobody says anything about TH, therefore we see TH everyday. Enough said. :D:D:D

27-Sep-2018 14:38:16

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Loot boxes can only become more favorable to video game developers once when the World draws the line between gaming, "gambling" simulations, and illegal gambling among other forms of real world crimes. By then, Steam and such will be forced to shift their real money player trading initiatives back to loot boxes... or instead of associating themselves to shady illegal 3rd party sites, Steam can real world trade their skins with "healthy" companies like what Overwatch is currently doing with Kellogg - buy Kelogg pop-tarts, get a golden Loot Box. :D

It.. actually doesn't matter if a 3rd party is doing the trading or if Valve is doing it... It is still cashing out which then categorises loot boxes as gambling which will be banned in certain countries. Honestly? I see the exact opposite happening. Game devs will shift away from randomised loot boxes and move back to the old microtransaction model where the players will be getting exactly what they paid for.


One major difference between real money player trading game features (e.g. Steam) and 3rd party offsite RWT (e.g. Duel Arena in Runescape and such):

Steam takes a cut of the proceeds. They are in the loop. They are essentially the middlemen. But Jagex is not responsible for any wrongdoing by any 3rd party they are not related to. They take no profits from RWT via the Duel Arena loophole and active RWT promoting by their players.

Steam and the likes will be forced to give up taking real money profits from player trading or outright abandon it in the future. What Steam gonna do when they come for real money player trading? Nowhere but back to the legal means of more MTX without any involvement of player trading and 3rd party sites. :D

27-Sep-2018 14:48:58

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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What has the "world" changed? What regulations forced Jagex to do anything to do with TH? Nothing. Jagex has capable lawyers just as all the major video game studios have their own capable lawyers. That's why we have all the loot boxes for all the Runescape layers. :)

27-Sep-2018 15:31:26

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
What has the "world" changed? What regulations forced Jagex to do anything to do with TH? Nothing. Jagex has capable lawyers just as all the major video game studios have their own capable lawyers. That's why we have all the loot boxes for all the Runescape layers. :)

The times are changing, here in my country energy drinks were very popular among children and if you know anything about those you know how harmful they are. Smug teens with same tone as yours used to say how the drinks arent going anywhere but after a while situation caught wind and energy drinks were banned from under 16 year old.

If you are really so naive to think that predatory gambling is here to stay then keep dreaming. At some point there will be clear rules created that anything involving real money and odds to receive goods is illegal for minors, and all this will happen because the gambling rules are being viewed as outdated.

One more example popped to my mind while writing, television phone quiz and chats used to be allowed for everyone here but after children started to waste hundreds of euros on them without their parents permission, companies didnt have to refund but the rules were changed and games turned adult only.


What does all these have to do with Jagex and Runescape as well as almost every video game and their developers in almost every country? Nothing.

Why? Because no "gambling rules" affect them. That's obvious.

27-Sep-2018 16:52:16

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

What does all these have to do with Jagex and Runescape as well as almost every video game and their developers in almost every country? Nothing.

Why? Because no "gambling rules" affect them. That's obvious.

Jesus christ, no gambling rules affect them YET, just like no rules affected energy drinks sold to kids or television phone quiz for minors, you get the point? Just because something is allowed now doesn't mean the rules wont be changed and right now we are at the phase of things catching wind and countries looking into the things.


In other words, there is still nothing, exactly like what it was a year ago.

No wonder why Jagex is still running TH as usual just like a year ago. :)

27-Sep-2018 17:22:21

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

In other words, there is still nothing, exactly like what it was a year ago.

No wonder why Jagex is still running TH as usual just like a year ago. :)

Yeah and Coca-Cola had cocaine in it for half a century, would you imagine that? Now does it have it anymore like it used to for years and years? There is your answer for TH's future.


Wake me up in another half a century if anything is changed then, and that's assuming the world doesn't end and you are still alive, and any "government" find anything "wrong" with TH by then. Or you can wake me up, maybe next year, when all the governments recommend TH as a substitute to real world gambling.

Meanwhile, Gamestack is running. To Jagex, it is gaming as usual and TH as usual. Runescape operates under current time, not 50 years into the future. :D

27-Sep-2018 18:16:00 - Last edited on 27-Sep-2018 18:16:23 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

In other words, there is still nothing, exactly like what it was a year ago.

No wonder why Jagex is still running TH as usual just like a year ago. :)

Yeah and Coca-Cola had cocaine in it for half a century, would you imagine that? Now does it have it anymore like it used to for years and years? There is your answer for TH's future.


Wake me up in another half a century if anything is changed then, and that's assuming the world doesn't end and you are still alive, and any "government" find anything "wrong" with TH by then. Or you can wake me up, maybe next year, when all the governments recommend TH as a substitute to real world gambling.

Meanwhile, Gamestack is running. To Jagex, it is gaming as usual and TH as usual. Runescape operates under current time, not 50 years into the future. :D

Yeah, keep on waving your flag for predatory gambling.


I believe Jagex is strongly against "predatory gambling". That's why they banned 3rd party gambling sites and users providing links to them, as well as making sensible changes to close the Duel Arena staking RWT loophole in OSRS.

I see Jagex waving their flag against predatory gambling already.

27-Sep-2018 18:38:31

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Qwis7 said:

Its just another way to get more taxes, because gambling does have a increased tax fee.


Although this is just a conspiracy theory, it actually makes sense if a country's government substitutes illegal 3rd party gambling with legal "gambling" simulations in legitimate online games.

Underground gambling is of course illegal and the criminals don't pay taxes at all. However, loot boxes and other similar "gambling" simulations are not just legal but their operators all pay taxes. That's a win-win situation between game studios and the governments.

From the perspectives of parents, the majority of them don't even care about their kids playing adult games. This can easily be shown from how much the R-rated (or not for players under 18) GTA V is making and how acclaimed this 3rd overall grossing console game in the world is. :D

Besides, the parents who really have a problem with gambling possibly will rather see their kids opening loot boxes in FIFA, Overwatch, Runescape etc, than hanging out with scary people in a real world underground illegal gambling site. And the vast majority of kids just play free in online games too. It won't even cost their parents money.

27-Sep-2018 19:16:53 - Last edited on 27-Sep-2018 19:53:21 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:

No it doesn't make sense, if it gets categorised as gambling, the game wouldn't be sold to any minors under 18. Yea, I think no game company wants to significantly reduce their sales for some small extra profit.


Of course no game company wants to significantly reduce their sales for some small extra profit, that's why THE WORLD is doing loot boxes as usual.

TH is not gambling. Nobody says it is gambling, let alone illegal gambling. Meanwhile, gambling virtual items of a video game such as a Twisted Bow or a Blood Dye exclusively not from TH via a 3rd party site or real money player trading/RWT is definitely gambling. That's the fact.

28-Sep-2018 00:37:00

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Of course no game company wants to significantly reduce their sales for some small extra profit, that's why THE WORLD is doing loot boxes as usual.

TH is not gambling. Nobody says it is gambling, let alone illegal gambling. Meanwhile, gambling virtual items of a video game such as a Twisted Bow or a Blood Dye exclusively not from TH via a 3rd party site or real money player trading/RWT is definitely gambling. That's the fact.

Not gambling yet.

The examples you gave can only be categorised as gambling if there's some sort of randomness and upfront cost in it.


Randomness doesn't imply "gambling". Coin flipping is obviously not gambling in all sport events to say the least.

28-Sep-2018 14:49:37

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
TH is not gambling. Nobody says it is gambling, let alone illegal gambling.

So are you implying there is not luck involved after you purchase keys and open the chests, that lets say 10 keys will yield the rare reward you are going after and after receiving it you wont feel anything?

TH is just pure game of skill and cant be in any way compared to something like opening a gun case in counter strike.


Again, games of chance is not always gambling, especially when nothing of real virtual leaves the system.

Even skills are involved in a game of chance with real money changing hand, e.g.. playing Poker or Black Jack for real money in a real casino, LAWS in almost every country still category such game illegal without proper registration/license.

There is no real money or anything of tangible value changing hand via TH. Same thing with Clue Scroll reward caskets too. Playing TH or Clue Scrolls are not gambling as long as Jagex doesn't allow anybody to trade the pixels they own for real money or anything of value in real life.

28-Sep-2018 14:57:57

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
There is no real money or anything of tangible value changing hand via TH. Same thing with Clue Scroll reward caskets too. Playing TH or Clue Scrolls are not gambling as long as Jagex doesn't allow anybody to trade the pixels they own for real money or anything of value in real life.

Darn i didnt know you can buy keys to open clue scroll caskets and dont actually have to play the game.

i mean sure, opening a clue scroll casket can be very exciting but at least kids cant just spend money to do it but actually play the game and solve the puzzles.

quick question, when you have soul wars points or barbarian assault points, what can you do with them, what is the process called when you use the points to ****** your points for random stuff, now replace those points with th keys and tell me the difference and why does the definition suddenly change?


Kids don't need to pay to do Clue Scrolls but if they gamble the Blood Dye or Twisted Bow they get for playing free for real money or items offsite, then it is still gambling.

Still have no clue? Don't worry. The real world governments know and 16 of them are talking about what the real gambling is. :D

28-Sep-2018 17:40:54

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

Kids don't need to pay to do Clue Scrolls but if they gamble the Blood Dye or Twisted Bow they get for playing free for real money or items offsite, then it is still gambling.

Still have no clue? Don't worry. The real world governments know and 16 of them are talking about what the real gambling is. :D


You didnt answer my question, you can gamble barbarian assault points for random stuff, replace those points with th keys, why does the definition change?


Nothing according to the real world governments. As long as Jagex doesn't allow anything that come out of BA, Clue Scroll, Duel Arena or just about anything you get from playing their games to be turned into real money or tangible items, it is not illegal gambling.

28-Sep-2018 19:03:16

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

Nothing according to the real world governments. As long as Jagex doesn't allow anything that come out of BA, Clue Scroll, Duel Arena or just about anything you get from playing their games to be turned into real money or tangible items, it is
not illegal gambling
.

But you said its not gambling when runescape itself literally defines it as such via soul wars gambling and barbarian assault gambling, just with th keys and ability to purchase them.


Re-read what I wrote carefully please.

"Gambling", "wagering", "betting" don't mean ILLEGAL gambling. You hear all kinds of people saying these words everyday, including those in TV game shows like Jeopardy! but they are NOT actually doing something ILLEGAL.

28-Sep-2018 22:08:06

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:

Re-read what I wrote carefully please.

"Gambling", "wagering", "betting" don't mean ILLEGAL gambling. You hear all kinds of people saying these words everyday, including those in TV game shows like Jeopardy! but they are NOT actually doing something ILLEGAL.

So you agree that th is gambling


I
***BET***
this is legal "gambling" like flipping a coin to decide home field advantage in sports, and all the video game developers and most of their customers are happy with that that's why they are making so much money.

Do you want me to reinterate I
***BET***
but so what? The real world governments are not so idiotic. They know what are real life illegal gambling and they should take action on.

Enjoy your Gemstacks on TH this week. :D

28-Sep-2018 23:33:46

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The real world governments are not so idiotic. They know what are real life illegal gambling and they should take action on.

They clearly didn't as they're redefining laws to categorise loot boxes as gambling and are doing more research on the topic.


Yes, they are trying to but not quite yet "redefining" laws to weed out the real money casino apps (e.g. Big Fish Cashino) pretending to be healthy for fun, recreational video games like Runescape.

They are also going to follow Australia's footsteps to provide the same "3rd party skin gambling is illegal but simulation games of chance in video games with obvious recreational values may actually keep your kids safe" guidance.

29-Sep-2018 14:27:49

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Yes, they are trying to but not quite yet "redefining" laws to weed out the real money casino apps (e.g. Big Fish Cashino) pretending to be healthy for fun, recreational video games like Runescape.

They are also going to follow Australia's footsteps to provide the same "3rd party skin gambling is illegal but simulation games of chance in video games with obvious recreational values may actually keep your kids safe" guidance.

Probably only because no one is outraged by the casino apps. Parent's don't know better because they don't know about those apps, kids don't know better because they're kids, gamers (who are advocating for loot box laws) don't care because "mobile gaming lul".

Either way, the government isn't all knowing in regards to what gambling constitutes as your previous comment implied. And thus will be slow to take action, which is why we're only seeing any real progress now.


We are seeing more real progress from the Irish government today:

"Loot boxes don't fall under gambling legislation, says Irish government"


https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-10-01-loot-boxes-fall-within-normal-consumer-law-not-gambling-legislation-says-irish-government

"However, it should be understood, that if a game offers in-game purchases - be they loot boxes, skins, etc. - which are promoted to gamers as increasing their chances of success, such purchases are essentially a commercial or e-commerce activity."


It is obviously the Irish government are in the group of 16 world governments to focus on 3rd party real world gambling sites, not any legitimate game developers' commerical or e-commerce activity. :D

TH is a legitimate commericial or e-commerce product, no reason and no legal basis to outcast it.

01-Oct-2018 16:00:13

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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"I would like to see their explanation on how some people can unwittingly spent tens of thousands of dollars on a game. The wouldn't if the purchase was upfront and direct, i.e. you know exactly what you're getting instead of paying money for a chance to get a virtual item you want."


The Irish government already gave an extremely solid explanation. They said when video game developers are selling virtual items in games, mind them loot boxes, skins or other in-game purchases, they are just selling a commercial product. It is under the same common laws governing other commercial products like Baseball Cards, physical loot crates like Nintendo's Ambiibo Crates, or Disney's theme park pass.

Loot boxes, skins and all the in-game purchases including expansion packs and subscriptions may be all pay-to-win, but unfortunately real world laws don't and will never prohibit pay-to-win since the real world is always pay-to-win.

03-Oct-2018 00:46:01 - Last edited on 03-Oct-2018 00:46:42 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The Irish government already gave an extremely solid explanation. They said when video game developers are selling virtual items in games, mind them loot boxes, skins or other in-game purchases, they are just selling a commercial product. It is under the same common laws governing other commercial products like Baseball Cards, physical loot crates like Nintendo's Ambiibo Crates, or Disney's theme park pass.

That didn't answer my question at all.

Dilbert2001 said:
Loot boxes, skins and all the in-game purchases including expansion packs and subscriptions may be all pay-to-win, but unfortunately real world laws don't and will never prohibit pay-to-win since the real world is always pay-to-win.

That's weird, I remember new laws being passed to restrict/ban loot boxes in several countries and states in US. Please, do continue telling me that it will never happen. And don't lump skin/cosmetics/power ups/expansion packs with loot boxes and randomised MTX, you can actually know exactly how much you will be spending on those whereas you won't for loot boxes.


They are the Irish government. Their answer is for the ENTIRE WORLD, not just "you".

And they obviously "lump skin/cosmetics/power ups/expansion packs with loot boxes and randomised MTX". They are the Irish government, whether you like it or not. That's their laws for the Irish people and their answer to the World. Likewise, France answered the same way to the World a month ago, and Germany back in February.

And no new laws have been "passed" to restrict/ban loot boxes. There are (dead) Bills in the US only. There have been voices of basically just 1 minister from Belgium but absolutely no legal actions taken. There have been just some requests from Netherlands to 4 games half a year ago, but nothing since and they are apparently happy now. Nothing elsewhere in the World.

03-Oct-2018 02:57:48

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino,

"Then don't reply to me if you're not answering my question."


You post in these RSOF forums, everybody can comment on it. Since you also asked a question regarding the Irish law, only the Irish government can answer it. Why don't you go ask the Irish government if you have question only they can answer? Many webistes just reported this Irish government news. They, and I, obviously don't make laws for Ireland and don't speak for them.

Didn't know the Irish government spoke for the world


They speak for the Laws of Ireland, not the world.

"Oh yea, you're right, that's exactly why Valve, Blizzard, 2K, and other big name game developers have decided to remove loot boxes in several countries including Belgium, Netherlands, and 13 other countries."


No "laws" were passed. They used their existing laws and that's only in Belgium. Netherlands did not request anybody to remove loot boxes. They asked for changes to their games and DOTA2 only made change to real money player trading, so did PUBG, but no loot boxes were removed in Netherlands.

What other companies removed loot boxes in the "13 other countries"? What 13 other countries are they? Who removed their loot boxes. Please tell. :D

03-Oct-2018 14:55:17 - Last edited on 03-Oct-2018 14:59:56 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
UrekMazino said:

Oh yea, you're right, that's exactly why Valve, Blizzard, 2K, and other big name game developers have decided to remove loot boxes in several countries including Belgium, Netherlands, and 13 other countries.

"just 1 minister from Belgium but absolutely no legal actions taken"


"some requests from Netherlands to 4 games half a year ago, but nothing since and they are apparently happy now"


Lol, you're just a child covering your ears and crying blah blah blah while all the evidence is stacked against you.


Agreed. Also I might add that Belgium are putting EA under criminal investigation after they refused to comply with their request that they remove ultimate team. Although who could blame EA considering they've based their entire company off this kind of bad (long term) business. But yea I'd hardly say Belgium and Netherlands are doing "nothing".


So what have the Belgium "investigation" led to? It has been 6 months but still real world legal actions. Netherlands also has done nothing. They did not even want to reveal the names of the 4 games they requested changes for and since then they have also mentioned "if no real money involved leave the game, it is legal".

03-Oct-2018 14:58:17

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
You post in these RSOF forums, everybody can comment on it. Since you also asked a question regarding the Irish law, only the Irish government can answer it. Why don't you go ask the Irish government if you have question only they can answer? Many webistes just reported this Irish government news. They, and I, obviously don't make laws for Ireland and don't speak for them.

Of course anybody can reply, I'm just saying its pointless if you're not going to address it. Since you seem to not understand me, let me explain more clearly, the main point of my question was how can players unwittingly spent thousands on dollars on in game purchases without realising it and that somehow is not categorised as predatory practices.

Dilbert2001 said:
Didn't know the Irish government spoke for the world


They speak for the Laws of Ireland, not the world.

Gee, I wonder how I misunderstood you. Oh wait, I didn't.

Dilbert2001 said:
They are the Irish government. Their answer is for the ENTIRE WORLD, not just "you".


I already answered you they are not "predatory practices" according to the Irish government. Anybody can spend as much money as they want on any e-commerce products. They define laws, as well as what is common e-commerce products and instead of "predatory practices".

03-Oct-2018 15:57:03

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
I already answered you they are not "predatory practices" according to the Irish government. Anybody can spend as much money as they want on any e-commerce products. They define laws, as well as what is common e-commerce products and instead of "predatory practices".

I didn't ask for your or the Irish government's opinion, I asked how can someone unwittingly spend thousands of dollars on in game purchases, virtual items that do not exist.


Because they have money and they can use their money on anything they want to buy. Now this is my own opinion.

03-Oct-2018 16:13:48

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Because they have money and they can use their money on anything they want to buy. Now this is my own opinion.

Again not address my question, I didn't ask why they are allowed to spend the money, I'm asking how did they spend all that money and not realise they spent that much money until much later.

UrekMazino said:
FIFA player did not know he spent over $10,000 and had no idea until he managed to force EA to release his information, also shocked by how much data EA collected on him:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-07-23-fifa-player-uses-gdpr-to-find-out-everything-ea-has-on-him-realises-hes-spent-over-usd10-000-in-two-years-on-ultimate-team

This guy could've gone his entire life not knowing he spent over $10,000 on FIFA if not for new/modified laws that allowed him to force EA to release his information.


This person has already answered his own question:

"Myself and my fiancee are fortunate to have a healthy disposable income, so this kind of amount wouldn't have caused a strain on us financially. I do however, have the utmost sympathy for those in a position of low income who may also be or become addicted to buying loot boxes."


He spent $10,000 because it was "disposable income" so he did not take any notice. If it wasn't disposable income to him, he would have checked his monthly bank statements and found out much much much earlier.

GDPR is a common law regulating normal commerce and e-commerce including loot boxes, not any "new/modified loot boxes" laws that don't exist. That's exactly what the Irish Government stated in-game purchases, not just loot boxes should be legally handled.

03-Oct-2018 16:49:49

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
This person has already answered his own question:

"Myself and my fiancee are fortunate to have a healthy disposable income, so this kind of amount wouldn't have caused a strain on us financially. I do however, have the utmost sympathy for those in a position of low income who may also be or become addicted to buying loot boxes."


He spent $10,000 because it was "disposable income" so he did not take any notice. If it wasn't disposable income to him, he would have checked his monthly bank statements and found out much much much earlier.

That wouldn't have changed anything as the money would've already been spent. As stated in the article, Michael was lured in by the sales offers during special events like black friday, FUT birthday etc. and would spend money without a second thought, do you think checking his bank statement would make any difference? Because it sure as hell did not for this 19 year old who spent $13,500 on a mobile game.

https://kotaku.com/meet-the-19-year-old-who-spent-over-10-000-on-microtra-1820854953

BTW, this was listed in my earlier reply, you haven't responded to them yet.

Dilbert2001 said:
GDPR is a common law regulating normal commerce and e-commerce including loot boxes, not any "new/modified loot boxes" laws that don't exist. That's exactly what the Irish Government stated in-game purchases, not just loot boxes should be legally handled.

It is new, it was approved in April 2016 and enforced in May 2018, that's why Michael was only able to force EA to release his information on the very day it was enforced, literally the 2nd sentence in the article.


Michael could have been "lured" by any Black Friday sales on a car and such too.

GDPR is not a new law specifically to video games, let alone loot boxes.

03-Oct-2018 17:13:50

Dilbert2001

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Real world companies always follow real world laws. Real world laws in countries like Ireland as well as almost every country in the world never ban loot boxes or even remotely saying so.

The real world fact is nothing has been said about TH being "gambling", "illegal", or anything even remotely bad. No government is even said to have anything to do with TH, just nobody. That's why you see TH in Runescape as well as all kinds of loot boxes still running everywhere.

So there is the petty lowest common denominator Belgium, but so what? They have a few words on EA's loot boxes but evidently they have done nothing in the real world to bring EA to court. That's why EA is still pushing forward with their loot boxes. Besides, the fact that Belgium did not join the EU coalition against the truly real world gambling websites exposed their cover. Unlike the real world anti-gambling countries, they are not there to tackle real world gambling problems.

Now of course all real world companies have to comply to real world laws. That's why there are still laws like GDPR and common consumer laws they every one needs to follow. But again, everything is fine with TH from all angels because loot boxes are not anything different than skins, virtual currencies, or even real world commerce products like Baseball Cards or even cars. :D

03-Oct-2018 17:48:20

Dilbert2001

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The gamers rally, so now the real world governments are going after real world traders and 3rd party gamblers. Good for the world.

The blur line between gaming and gambling is becoming more visible every day. Only invisible anti-loot box "laws" are faking away like Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. :D

What else can gamers do? It is really simple. Their money. They pay for loot boxes just like other services in the games and real world if they want to.

03-Oct-2018 18:06:18

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The gamers rally, so now the real world governments are going after real world traders and 3rd party gamblers. Good for the world.

The blur line between gaming and gambling is becoming more visible every day. Only invisible anti-loot box "laws" are faking away like Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

Fake?

Dilbert2001 said:
What else can gamers do? It is really simple. Their money. They pay for loot boxes just like other services in the games and real world if they want to.

It's not that simple.


Quote the "anti-loot box laws" if they are not fake please. Don't just tell me that GDPR is loot box law. Don't tell me the failed "UK petition" is law. Don't tell me the Failed Chris Lee Loot Box BILLS are laws. :D

The players who paid almost $30 million for TH alone last year certainly dictated how they spent their money
.

03-Oct-2018 18:25:34

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Quote the "anti-loot box laws" if they are not fake please. Don't just tell me that GDPR is loot box law.

I never did? You brought up the GDPR from the Michael case, which was a law that forced EA to release his personal information, nothing to do with loot box. Did you actually read the article? Are you actually reading my replies or just skimming?

Dilbert2001 said:
Don't tell me the failed "UK petition" is law. Don't tell me the Failed Chris Lee Loot Box BILLS are laws.

Did I ever say any of that? Don't try to put words in my mouth.

Anyways, for every failed bill to pass, there will be one that will be successful.

US - https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=04c83f73-6a42-43ec-baf3-dd30b7094ab0

Dutch - https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306

Dutch - https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/04/dutch-government-rules-some-loot-boxes-count-as-illegal-gambling/

Dutch pressuring EU - https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-04-20-dutch-gaming-authority-wants-eu-wide-loot-box-legislation

Belgian - https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/325085/2K_tweaks_loot_boxes_in_NBA_2K_to_comply_with_new_Belgian_gambling_laws.php

China - https://techraptor.net/content/chinas-loot-box-law-may-actually-help-games-like-overwatch-get-more-money

Hawaii - https://techraptor.net/content/hawaii-proposes-bills-regulate-games-loot-boxes

Before you say these aren't getting rid of MTX, let me remind you that the point we were talking about is new laws regarding MTX in general, or modifications on existing ones. So that I may save myself a reply before you inevitably misunderstand me or deliberately change the topic/move goal post.


In other words and in a nutshell, no new LAWS have been passed and nothing even said in the future. :D:D:D

03-Oct-2018 18:54:15

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
In other words and in a nutshell, no new LAWS have been passed and nothing even said in the future.

No?


LOL. Obviously they are not anything new.

For instance, you quoted:

"China - https://techraptor.net/content/chinas-loot-box-law-may-actually-help-games-like-overwatch-get-more-money"

But check the date please. It was 2016, definitely not anything new. And we knew the result already now in 2018. Loot boxes are absolutely, totally, 100%, completely not banned in China. :D:D:D

The Loot Box Law actually helped games like Overwatch to get more money in China part is absolutely true though. You know why? Because it cleared the blur line between legitimate Overwatch loot boxes from illegal 3rd party gambling. So consumers are comfortable to spend their money on a healthy legal commercial products. :D

03-Oct-2018 19:09:00 - Last edited on 03-Oct-2018 19:13:54 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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The good thing about the real governments trying to clear the blur line between gaming and gambling is it actually helps the play for fun users. It only hurts the players who are in games for real money gain, mind it real money trading or simply illegal offsite gambling.

Rest assured, "games" with all random loot boxes but no actual elements of a game or virtual world like Big Fish Casino should be considered gambling but Runescape has 18 years of content. It is certainly a game but not gambling.

Last year now, we heard a lot of "UK petitions" and such but this kind of players have noticeably been missing in almost every game. Just a couple left now. Why? Because most of them get smarter. They knew they more they cry against loot boxes, the more the real government will investigate and fix the real problems. The blur line is obviously in real money trading and offsite gambling. The most the world government can do to loot boxes is just like what the Chinese did - ESRB/PEGI labels (which is happening already) and odds reveal.

Offsite gambling is obvious bad. I have no sympathy with this group of "players". However, to the more legitimate players who play the game for real money player trading gains in games like DoTA and CS:GO, they certainly find the dominoes falling to the wrong side. :D

03-Oct-2018 19:32:52 - Last edited on 03-Oct-2018 19:34:29 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Sine Jagex is a company mostly operated in UK. The UK gambling laws are the ones that affect them the most.

Last year around this time, the UK Gambling Commission have their stance on loot box "gambling" revealed:

"According to UK Gambling Commission Executive Director Tim Miller, loot boxes in games like Star Wars Battlefront 2 and Overwatch aren’t gambling because the items obtained in these loot boxes can’t be considered money or money’s worth. What this means is that the items players get in games like Star Wars Battlefront 2 can’t be resold or used outside the game, so they don’t fall under the umbrella of gambling activity."


https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2017/Loot-boxes-within-video-games.aspx

It is really obvious, loot boxes in any game that can't be resold or used outside the game don't fall under the umbrella of gambling activity. Runescape doesn't allow players to cash out any of the in game items/currencies, TH is obviously not a gambling activity.

Apparently UK gamers learned a lot already, so no more UK Petition against loot boxes since then. ;)

03-Oct-2018 20:07:21

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04-Oct-2018 18:26:39

Dilbert2001

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So what kinds of video game related activities are considered illegal gambling to the UK government?

Well, seeing is believing. What the UK Governments actually took actions on were something like these the last few years:

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/youtubers-charged-with-video-game-gambling-in-the-uk

That's right. Unlike the lone Belgium minister of Justice, the UK Governments certainly did what they claimed would be doing consistently, and that is to prosecute illegal gamblers who are tied to 3rd party gambling sites even, not loot boxes or anything else have to do there. :D

And they did not go after the game developers. They went the game players since they were the actual gamblers, not the video game developers.

04-Oct-2018 18:52:15 - Last edited on 04-Oct-2018 19:08:02 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Let's also see what UK Gambling Laws, and their real world actions against real world video game gambling are like...

Last time we have learned the UK governments ganged up against "illegal gambling" in FIFA... and they brought action... but wait... They did not prosecute EA, they arrested 2 players for facilitating illegal gambling through 3rd party sites, and to minors too.

So, what is the verdict?

Well... here is is:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/youtubers-charged-promoting-gambling

The ones involved in the illegal gambling was fined £265,000... but wait... EA is absolutely fine, not fined, FIFA is not illegal gambling... the players who hocked up with 3rd party gambling sties are...

Now we should know what the World Government are truly attacking... no wonder all the UK and White House petitions we saw last year have disappeared... at least some players still have brains. :D

05-Oct-2018 16:16:28

Dilbert2001

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Now, let's look at things Jagex should not do so Runescape will never be gambling according to the UK Law.

It is really obvious. They should never implement real money player trading. They should never allow players to convert any in game items/currencies into real money, and it means no RWT. They should also keep warning players about gambling items/currencies offsite are not only violation of Jagex EULA but also illegal in real life.

So what about TH? Nothing they need to do. It is perfectly safe now in any of their games, now or future. That's why no governments can even bother them. :D

06-Oct-2018 03:05:56

Dilbert2001

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So a straight to the point question to those who think TH is gambling, or otherwise illegal:

What country/countries said that? What laws and specific section(s) of such laws said so? What previous cases have they prosecuted, and what are the verdicts?

To accuse an entity of illegal activity, one must have provide evidences too. Or else, it is always business as usual for that entity. :)

06-Oct-2018 19:23:42

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
So a straight to the point question to those who think TH is gambling, or otherwise illegal:

Because even the game itself defines it as gambling, as stated with barbarian assault and soul wars example, not illegal yet but hopefully in near future.

What i fail to understand is your reasoning to not turn th into adults only content, im not sure if you are aware how big problem lootboxes actually are among children. I'd highly suggest you to visit your nearest child aid center, get to know the issue, there is kids all the way from age 7 having problems from lootboxes on their parents expense.

What is your argument, excuse, what ever to not change it to adults only, what is the big deal with that?


Some Child Aid/Care Centers and schools run Raffles to raise funds in many countries. So are they gambling? No. Their governments said games of chance are not gambling just because they are games of chance.

Many schools also use a raffle system to let their little kid students to exchange gifts too. So are they gambling? No. Their governments said games of chance are not gambling just because they are games of chance.

06-Oct-2018 23:34:45

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:


Some Child Aid/Care Centers and schools run Raffles to raise funds in many countries. So are they gambling? No. Their governments said games of chance are not gambling just because they are games of chance.

Many schools also use a raffle system to let their little kid students to exchange gifts too. So are they gambling? No. Their governments said games of chance are not gambling just because they are games of chance.

You said it, a raffle to raise funds, the odds of winning on that arent that great and ive never heard of a case where someone would develop a gambling problem because it doesnt 'spin a wheel' everytime you buy a ticket. Id still like to get an answer to the question why you are so against turning th to adult only content? how does that harm you?



I already answered it 9000 times. The world governments make, enforce and adjudicate laws, not you and me.

When the world governements all say TH is not an adult only content, we have to abide to the law. Abiding to the
LAWS
won't harm me, defying the
LAWS
will certainly harm all of us.

07-Oct-2018 15:24:14

Dilbert2001

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FiFi LaFeles said:
Forgive my laziness if it's already been laid out, but, how would Jagex go about ensuring that TH is accessed by adults only?

Historically, kids under 13 in this game claimed to be over 13 so as not to attract the speech restrictions so what is there to effectively stop minors from accessing any content that is deemed to be Adult Only?


It is the responsibility of the parents, not the entertainment providers.

07-Oct-2018 16:27:27

Dilbert2001

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FiFi LaFeles said:
That's not answering the question I asked.

Posts by I Lack Heart seem to be implying that s/he wants Jagex to make TH into an Adults Only piece of content, inaccessible by minors.

I was querying how that might be achieved as I'm fairly sure that it is not possible.


Yes, I understand your question is for OP about how Jagex can turn TH into Adults Only piece of content.

However, I think my response to you actually answered your question, and it is such parental controls in consoles, Windows and such already exist for the parents. They can decide what game is not suitable for their children already. Microsoft, console makers and such do this to comply to regular commerce laws pertaining to almost every internet site such as eBay, Amazon, Youtube, etc but not just video games and certainly not just a TH or loot box in any of such games.

So this becomes the responsibility of the parents if they choose to block off whatever games/entertainment or even payment options. The responsibility is not on the entertainment providers.

If TH was "Adult Only" which it clearly, certainly, completely, absolutely 100% is not, then all Jagex needed to do was to indicate their game(s) contain "Adult Only" in-game purchase but nothing else. This would also make themselves in compliant to PEGI and ESRB standards too.

07-Oct-2018 17:01:42 - Last edited on 07-Oct-2018 17:25:39 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
FiFi LaFeles said:
Forgive my laziness if it's already been laid out, but, how would Jagex go about ensuring that TH is accessed by adults only?

Historically, kids under 13 in this game claimed to be over 13 so as not to attract the speech restrictions so what is there to effectively stop minors from accessing any content that is deemed to be Adult Only?

Quite simple, remove the pay by phone option and change back to system where you have to confirm your purchase via net bank. There is minors that do own netbank but you cannot fake your age with it, if its an adult only purchase the confirmation for payment will not go through.

Also simply remove keys from bonds.


Absolutely no need as I mentioned.

GTA V and CoD: WWII are rated 18+ in many countries. Nothing extra needed to be done by the game developers whatsoever because laws don't require them. :D

07-Oct-2018 18:16:55

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:


Absolutely no need as I mentioned.

GTA V and CoD: WWII are rated 18+ in many countries. Nothing extra needed to be done by the game developers whatsoever because laws don't require them. :D

Its great that you assume every child actually has parents left, its like you are living in a dreamland where there is no problems and if there is its the parents fault for trusting their child not getting hooked on tempting 'dont miss out, last chance' offers for new stuff to win.

if its a kids game its not the parents job to check if it has elements that will get their kids hooked to gambling.

if you agree that opening a booze store next to rehab center is a dick move then you surely agree that targeting children with loophole gambling to get them spend more is just as bad


Whether a kid has parents or whatever hypothetical scenarios won't change the fact that the kid still has to abide to
LAWS
, I mean the real
LAWS
.

Rockstar and Blizzards don't treat any kid with or without parents differently in their 18+ only games GTA V and CoD:WWII to say the least. Why? Very simple. Because they all have to abide to the same LAWS, and that is the regular commerce law, not hypothetical "video game gambling laws".

Are we really talking about real world government regulations like you claimed in your first post? Or just something you dream up?

07-Oct-2018 20:31:44

Dilbert2001

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FiFi LaFeles said:
Dilbert2001 said:
FiFi LaFeles said:



No, that does not address my query at all actually.

I'm not interested in whose 'responsibility' it is for what children do.
I am asking if there are measures available to Jagex which could effectively exclude minors if Jagex were to implement certain Adults Only content.

Notification that the game includes Adults Only content would not effectively exclude minors from participating. Whether such notification is compliant with certain standards is not relevant to me, since notifications can be ignored. My question concerns is it possible to effectively exclude minors from certain aspects of the game.

I am still assuming this is not the case.


Literally no and impractical.

If there is only a 30 second scene of R-rated graphics in a movie, the whole movie is rated R. And the theater can't let a minor buy a ticket. They can't just find a way for the kid to watch the entire movie minus that 30 second scene.

07-Oct-2018 21:57:37

Dilbert2001

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FiFi LaFeles said:

I can understand the concern expressed by I Lack Heart (although I don't actually share it at this point in time, truth be told) and sympathise with his/her well-meaning intentions.

But if Jagex are showing no signs of concern that there is a problem, or that it breaches any existing laws, and there seems to be no relatively easy way of enforcing any concerns Jagex might have then it seems we are destined to remain with the status quo.


Well-meaning intentions such as how existing LAWS do not work, or are not perfect, or even in hypothetical situations one thinks do not apply (e.g. kids without parents do not have to abide to the LAWS) should be directed to the LAWMAKERS, not to a business or the customers of such a business. The business and its customers also have no positions not to abide to existing LAWS, let alone changing them neither.

Apart from how certain user's well-meaning intentions should be addressed, I believe as a business, Jagex is absolutely correct with their business as usual approach with TH, while paying special attention to already identified problematic areas by international governments in 3rd party skin trading and offsite gambling.

08-Oct-2018 15:32:54 - Last edited on 08-Oct-2018 18:02:44 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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TBH, most parents don't care about what video games their kids play. If the children try to swipe the parents' plastics on games behind their backs, the parents only have themselves to blame both legally and morally.

Take for an example of Black OP 4. It is a 18+ game in EU and rated Mature in the States but who the hell care? Not the parents care obviously since it made a record shattering half a billion dollars the first week at launch. But guess what? Investors said not enough from just the box sale numbers as they haven't seen any MTX plans yet, so there goes Blizzard's stock price. Just today alone it dropped >8%.

For the record, PEGI has been doing their best to give parental guidance and in game purchase control suggestions:

https://pegi.info/page/game-purchases

That's the best they and the world governments can do literally. If the parents are willfully blind on the obvious parental control measures including blocking the games and/or payment they don't approve, there is really not the fault of the LAWS. Saint Peter can only shake his finger at the parents, not the game developers at all. :)

19-Oct-2018 03:03:17 - Last edited on 19-Oct-2018 03:08:02 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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"I personally dislike Treasure Hunter, etc., but I also do not think over-regulation is the answer -- those that have the cash and wish to spend it in that way have every right to do so; those that don't have the cash but choose to spend it in that way anyway need to be responsible for their actions."


Governments can't do sh!t as clearly illustrated in the past year - it has always been greedy politicians crying wolf all the time but in the end this "Holy Crusade against Loot Boxes" get turned into Real World EU declaration against illegal 3rd party gambling sites. :D

In fact, the private and self regulation gaming sectors are doing a good job with the likes of Apple setting up rules on odds reveal regarding in game purchases, and PEGI not just giving parental guidelines on in game purchases but also visibly providing links to educate parents or legal guardians how to monitor/block sites at their choices. This is actually very effective in making most game developers to volunteer revealing the odds of in game purchases. It is not because the anti-gambling "laws" require them to do so, but it is the consumer moral compass that guide them to do the right things for the consumers, not the fake governments/politicians or Santa Claus. :D

28-Oct-2018 19:11:41

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPVOeyRYBPk
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46286945

GG ;) the time is running out.


Yes, GG for the illegal gambling sites, the time is running out.

And good time for the developers offering game of chance "gambling" simulations which are 100% approved by the UK governments, and in the position to stop children from going to real world illegal gambling sites with their parent's money. :D:D:D

21-Nov-2018 22:19:05

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Draco Burnz said:
I Lack Heart said:
GG the time is running out.


You do know that that has nothing to do with rs right?

TH =/= Loot Boxes.

So opening a treasure chest is not a chest with loot inside like a lootbox but instead it is game of skill that has nothing to do with luck.


Governments of different countries may have different definitions of "loot box" but being a game of skill or not, or with luck or not don't make a "loot box" gambling. In particular, in UK, the kinds of "loot boxes" in video games, not just TH in Jagex are not gambling. However, skin and virtual item gambling, like wagering a Twisted Bow on a 3rd party gambling site not owned by Jagex is absolutely gambling... but we all know Twisted Bow doesn't come from TH. ;)

22-Nov-2018 22:06:19 - Last edited on 22-Nov-2018 23:04:57 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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"‘Skins’ are in-game items, used within some of the most popular video game titles. They provide cosmetic alterations to a player’s weapons, avatar or equipment used in the game. Skins betting sites allow video gamers to wager cosmetic items rewarded in-game or purchased for real money on a digital marketplace, accessible from the UK for several years.

The Gambling Commission takes the view that the ability to convert in-game items to cash,or to trade them (for other items of value) means they attain a real-world value and become articles of money or money’s worth. Where gambling facilities are offered to British consumers, including with the use of in-game items that can be converted into cash or traded (for items of value), a gambling licence is required. Tackling operators making gambling facilities available to children is one of the Gambling Commission’s priorities. This has been demonstrated by action taken against unlicensed websites providing facilities for gambling using in-game items as methods for payment."


https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/survey-data/Young-People-and-Gambling-2018-Report.pdf

This is What the UK governments consider gambling. Whether you are an idiot or not, it is still the same LAW.

Clearly, if a game developer lets their players to bet their virtual items in an offsite gambling site, it is considered illegal gambling by the UK governments. The virtual items don't have to come from loot boxes. It can be a Twisted Bow dropped by mobs.

Jagex doesn't allow TH items to be cashed out therefore TH is not gambling per the UK Gambling Commision. However, if Jagex turns a blind eye on A Gambler betting a Twisted Bow not from TH through a gambling site or exploits in Duel Arena, it is gambling.

Whether you are an absolute idiot or somebody just want to farm posts doesn't change the LAW because it is the real world freaking LAW that even absolute idiots need to abide to.

23-Nov-2018 15:07:28

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Mega Duck said:
J Seinfeld said:
Why do you put a ":D" face after every paragraph you make?


He likes to put 3 sometimes, one of the many reasons i never read his posts lol.

@OP
I think if the law did come into effect, Jagex would find a sneaky way around it, such as age verification, then not allowing underage indeviduals to participate in gambling activities apart from those that are already 18+ which i'd guess will still be a huge majority.

Interestingly, we did have to verify our age earlier this year. I wonder if one of the reasons was to secretly prepare for an upcoming change of law, if it was ever to happen lol.


The "law" has always been in effect. I already quoted it in my last post. TH does not create real world value for any of its items, it is not gambling according to UK governments. Nothing new whatsoever.

The "age verification" earlier this year was for the GDPR requirement according to Jmod Stevew.

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/forums.ws?278,279,741,66009561

23-Nov-2018 19:33:46 - Last edited on 23-Nov-2018 19:41:56 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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"The UK Gambling Commission has not connected loot boxes with gambling... Despite what's been reported elsewhere."


https://www.pcgamer.com/the-uk-gambling-commission-has-not-connected-loot-boxes-with-gambling/

We know the tide has absolutely changed even among the journalists who once were in denial that governments do not connect loot boxes to gambling. At least some of them have come to the rationale that real money trading and 3rd party gambling sites are the problems, not loot boxes. :D

25-Nov-2018 20:15:10 - Last edited on 25-Nov-2018 20:16:47 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Never RIP said:
I think lootboxes help prevent problem gambling... Why? Because we've all put money in and it's never paid off.


You may not always win things you want the most with TH but you always win something. It is not like you stake your Twisted Bow in Duel Arena but may lose it often.

It is true that TH among other loot boxes actually prevent real world gambling. For instance, the Aussie Government even have this remark posted on their official eSafety website:

"Research into the impacts on young people of gambling-like elements in games and simulated gambling is in its early stages. However, a recent study suggests that for some children, playing social casino games leads to an increase in gambling activity, possibly because these games normalise gambling for them or inflate their confidence of winning in a real gambling scenario.
While for other children, it can act as a substitute, reducing their interest in real gambling.
"


https://www.esafety.gov.au/education-resources/iparent/staying-safe/online-gambling

To be more specific in Jagex own games, for instance, when a player puts his money on TH (a kind of loot boxes) he is not really gambling his real money. He is just paying for entertainment like Baseball Cards. He always win something, and more importantly, it is all legal. However, if there was no TH, the same player might wager his money or virtual items like a Twisted Bow on a 3rd party gambling site. Now that a big no-no both to Jagex and the real world governments because it is not just violation of Jagex's EULA but also illegal gambling according to almost every governments in the real world.

That said, TH, while some may consider "gambling" simulation, is far better than real world gambling like skin gambling or wagering real money in real world casinos.

02-Dec-2018 21:13:29

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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ESRB said loot boxes are like Baseball Cards. The UK Gambling Commission agreed with ESRB. Tell the UK governments they are wrong if you want to, but don't forget you are not the Governments or the self-regulation agencies of the video game industry. :D

“We don’t believe it does [fit the definition of gambling],” Vance said. “We think it’s a fun way to acquire virtual items to enhance users’ experiences. There’s obviously an element of surprise, like with baseball cards. But you always get something, there’s no way to cash out, and you can complete a game without buying a loot box. So there are a lot of different factors where we just don’t think this qualifies for either of the gambling descriptors.” - ESRB


Since apparently you know
"None of runescpae belongs to us players"
, why is it a problem if "TH never paid off"? You can pay for a SGS cosmetic items or bankslot but you still don't own anyting. You can pay for a year's Runescape membership and earn a lot of gp and virtual items in the game but you also never own any of these pixels. Your payments toward membership, bonds, runescoins etc never paid off neither, just never. TH is not the only thing that never "paid off".

I never said TH is gambling to begin with. The Australian Governments declared loot boxes "gambling" according to their antiquated laws, but they added loot boxes are not illegal gambling under most circumstances. They constructed a eSafety webpage to clarify their stances between "gambling simulations" (games of chance like loot boxes) and real world casino gambling (skin gamblings). Again, if you don't agree with them, go ask the Australian Governments. :D

Offsite gambling with Jagex virtual items are not just illegal in the real world, but also real world trading and violate the user agreement (at least for OSRS) between the players and Jagex as per Mod Ayiza of the OSRS team:

03-Dec-2018 18:02:00

Dilbert2001

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"It’s been brought to our attention that some members of the Old School RuneScape community, especially those with a large social influence, have begun associating themselves with and promoting 3rd party websites that encourage gambling.

It is often that these activities undermine the integrity of the community, violate our user agreements, prey on consumers, are heavily involved in real world trade and could be unlawful. We want to ensure that the Old School community is correctly represented by its content creators and as such, we’ll be working closely with them to begin updating our community guidelines so that it’s clear we’ll no longer work with any individual who participates, advertises, or is associated with any type of Gambling interests for real or digital currencies.

In addition to this, any individual who is found to be participating, advertising, or is associated with any type of Gambling interests for real or digital currencies via RuneScape may lead to their accounts being permanently banned from our services."


https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/99omj1/in_relation_to_recent_events/

Yes, that's right, the net is closing in... but not on TH or loot boxes, but absolutely on 3rd party offsite gambling, which is not just illegal according to real world living and breathing governments, but also real world trading and violation to Jagex's EULA.

03-Dec-2018 18:03:32 - Last edited on 03-Dec-2018 18:06:04 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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"Th is not gambling.
Th is work to win."


To me TH is "gambling" as much as playing Monopoly with your friends and family members for canides is "gambling".

In Barbarian Assault, Jagex actually use the word "gamble" for a feature which allows us to risk our rewards for something else, but make no mistakes, it is the same kind of "gamble" Jagex allow us to re-roll our rewards from the Clue Scroll and Raid loot boxes.

In all these cases, the word "gamble" is simply used as an alternative to "risk", "chance", etc.

Loot boxes without a way to cash out for real world tangible assets is not illegal gambling, TH is not illegal gambling. All cases closed.

As for the pay-to-win complaints... who really care if the other players win or lose as long as I am always the winner having the most fun out of the
entertainment
in the game we called Runescape? At least, the real world governments don't give a flying sh!t about pay-to-win or microtransactions as the real world is always 100% pay-to-win, and the stakes to be won in the real world are tangible assets with legal implications too.

04-Dec-2018 17:24:32

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Nead said:
Caipher said:
It gives people a more reasonable method of training insufferable skills like 120 slayer (my personal opinion -- feel free to flame me, idm).


Gotta' agree here. Slayer sucks. Dunno' why everyone blows their load over training it all the time. The only good task is an AFK task. I've got my last few levels from Slayer from all the XP lamps, alone. It was foolish to bring the skill to 120 simply to encourage more PvM and Bossing. Slayer didn't need to be associated. This game needs alot of work. New content (using new loosely) should be far from a priority, nowadays. The many patch weeks this year were great in the sense of fixes, but it was instead minimal and used as an excuse in development alongside Runefest and Mobile. That's all a different story, though.

I'm not necessarily a fan of MTX, either. But it's a trend for companies and it's not going anywhere, ever, put bluntly and obviously. Play the game how you want, enjoy it however you want, cherish whatever accomplishments and memories you make from it. Even competition should be fun, to an extent. Everyone needs to get bigger problems irl, imo.

Yeah and you wonder why that is? that skill like slayer, something that skillers dont enjoy is turned to 120 skill with poor excuse of slayer monsters from 99-120. To make you spend money for your comp cape ofc.


If you don't enjoy Slayer you don't need to do it, but you will just not be able to get to level 120 Slayer. You will never get your comp cape even without xp lamps anyway (note: xp lamps from all game features, not just xp lamps and such from TH).

Experience lamps just give non-slayers a way to get the comp cape they will never get otherwise. It is only a positive option to them.

11-Dec-2018 14:15:16

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Jagex has quietly raised its MTX prices to squeeze the last drips from exploited gambling addict kids, whole game is funded with depression and misery.


Jagex raised the prices of membership, bonds and some virtual currencies many months ago, but they announced it. They did not do it "quietly".

You seem to be veering further and further away from what your original post. The real world governments have absolutely nothing to do with Jagex's MTX pricing and the xp items they are selling. No laws can stop anybody from profiting from MTX. :D

19-Dec-2018 18:22:20

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
gaming industry as a whole has suffered alot due to this, stocks of companies most heavily offering their predatory gambling services have plummeted 40-50%, not just one company making a mistake but many. Even investors know that the era of child gambling is coming to an end, making gaming companies less profitable as lootboxes start to get regulated.


They "plummeted" 40-50%? You mean like the ones with new games without loot boxes like Black Ops 4, RDR2 and Battlefield V?

Of course, they "plummeted" because they have no loot boxes and therefore lower income and guess what? The ones who hate loot boxes now point their fingers at other MTX.

Still, what does this have to do with government regulations?

04-Jan-2019 18:39:00

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
I love how the games like black ops 4 added ridiculous lootboxes and Take-Two Interactive Software stock crashed ever since red dead redemption 2 online launch and its ridiculous mtx that they were forced to tune down. all the major tirple-a producers apart from witcher 3 makers have taken the hit. when you build a bubble targeting the children that bubble is destined to burst.


Again, every true gamer knows there are no loot boxes in Black Ops 4 and Red Dead Redemption 2. It is extremely silly to blame the non-existing loot boxes for the drop of such companies' stock prices. On the contrary, the better arguments is they are making far less money because of no loot boxes, therefore their stock prices are dropping and ATVI are laying off hundreds of Blizzard employees, including the ones with WoW which obviously have no loot boxes there. :D:D:D

Jagex don't want to lose more employees, therefore they have TH to feed not only the 320 employees they had last year, but also another 100 new hires this year. If there were no TH, more Jmods would probably have to be asked to leave Jagex and they might turn streamers too. :D

Again, this has nothing to do with governments regulations. In fact, no governments has said a word against loot boxes since a petty minister in Belgium failed miserably 9 months ago. :D:D:D

05-Jan-2019 16:17:28

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Last year around this day, we had White House, UK petititions, US Bills, EU proposed regulations among all kinds of (faked and failed) "government" crap against loot boxes...

Look what's left a year later? Nothing. US Bills failed, Petititions have been answered by their respective governments (UK, Aussie, US, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland... and you name it) but unfortunately to some people the government responses were "nothing... just nothing needed to be done... it is all legal... we don't have anything to tell".

No government talked about loot boxes any more, obviously, because they know very well the blur line is on the real money trading and real world 3rd party gambling exploits but not in the randomness of the game of chance.

Self regulation is always the way to go... and TH is all along the line of all regulations (both public and industrial), and it will be perfect once when they show the odds of the prizes following the Chinese Government's requirement.

07-Jan-2019 01:12:13

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Last year around this day, we had White House, UK petititions, US Bills, EU proposed regulations among all kinds of (faked and failed) "government" crap against loot boxes...

Look what's left a year later? Nothing. US Bills failed, Petititions have been answered by their respective governments (UK, Aussie, US, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland... and you name it) but unfortunately to some people the government responses were "nothing... just nothing needed to be done... it is all legal... we don't have anything to tell".

No government talked about loot boxes any more, obviously, because they know very well the blur line is on the real money trading and real world 3rd party gambling exploits but not in the randomness of the game of chance.

Self regulation is always the way to go... and TH is all along the line of all regulations (both public and industrial), and it will be perfect once when they show the odds of the prizes following the Chinese Government's requirement.


Yes because we all know governments can just create any law instantly without having to follow any kind of process such as ensuring the laws are fair and assuring all affected parties get any kind of notice to adapt to the laws. Nope they don't need to do any of that. They just need to put their infinity gauntlets on and woosh no more loot boxes. But we all know the governments won't do anything to hurt these poor defenceless billionaires and their revenue stream fuelled by gambling addiction. And Belgium definitely isn't having to fight against poor old EA who definitely aren't pleading innocent to having lootboxes where every other company that was accused of breaking the law removed them.

Also not forget they have to post news on the subject every single day or else they aren't actually doing anything.


So what is the "process"? What laws? Anything happened to EA? What news?

Nothing!

07-Jan-2019 15:40:47

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
Read my post properly if you actually want me to take you seriously and maybe do some research into how laws are made. Instead of you know running around the forums every waking hour acting like you're Jagex's white knight like you are.

These things take months to officially become "Laws" and a few more months to become active after they are officially declared. But before all that they have to be written and approved in which time the government needs address more pressing matters.

As for EA not being dealt with. That's because they have to go to court over their Loot Boxes and court cases take months to sort out especially ones against billion dollar corporations who are pleading innocent. It's not going to be as straight forward as the cases in Judge Judy. Again serious court cases take ages to complete.


If you want anybody to take you seriously you should know I have already told you numerous time in many thread including one you made that everything you mentioned was not laws. Bills were not laws and they have been defeated, abandoned, marked 'x", etc.

And EA is not going to Court because there was no Belgium Enforcement sided with that pathetic minister. Please tell us what date is EA going to Court if you want us to take you seriously?

09-Jan-2019 01:54:55

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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No government and laws link TH to"broken humans" and they certainly won't allow their citizens and residents to deflect their laws to other topics even they allow bills, petitions, comments and such.

The undeniable fact remains, they are not even talking about loot boxes now, especially after the 15 EU countries as well as Washington State ganged up to remove the blur line of online gambling, hence directly their attacks not to loot boxes but real money trading, skin gambling and illegal 3rd party gambling sites.

11-Jan-2019 15:57:26

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
So what is the "process"? What laws? Anything happened to EA? What news?

Nothing!

Lawmakers are slower to respond since putting law in place takes time, but selling stocks is a much quicker process! Not just EA but you can look at Blizzard Activision too!


So there are no laws whatsoever as you can see.

And again, again and again, governments don't sell stocks of EA and ATVI and they can't since they don't own any shares of these stocks. Loot boxes can't be blamed for falling stock prices neither as poor sales of games like WoW, Diablo, Black Ops 4 and Battlefield V with no loot boxes were cited in many analysts reports.

Please don't drag this thread further into non-government regulations topic as there is already a thread about TH just few posts down from here:

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/c=DRPPXMrPLP0/sl=0/forums.ws?366,367,6,65940719,goto,78

12-Jan-2019 15:46:05

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
So what is the "process"? What laws? Anything happened to EA? What news?

Nothing!

Lawmakers are slower to respond since putting law in place takes time, but selling stocks is a much quicker process! Not just EA but you can look at Blizzard Activision too!


So there are no laws whatsoever as you can see.

And again, again and again, governments don't sell stocks of EA and ATVI and they can't since they don't own any shares of these stocks. Loot boxes can't be blamed for falling stock prices neither as poor sales of games like WoW, Diablo, Black Ops 4 and Battlefield V with no loot boxes were cited in many analysts reports.

Please don't drag this thread further into non-government regulations topic as there is already a thread about TH just few posts down from here:

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/c=DRPPXMrPLP0/sl=0/forums.ws?366,367,6,65940719,goto,78

I'm not saying that lawmakers are buying stock! You're the one making that up. I was merely answering your question:
Anything happened to EA?
If anyone is trying to drag this thread away from the original topic, it'd be you!


This thread is about government regulations and no governments is doing anything to EA. Please explain what stock price of a company has to do with government regulations?

13-Jan-2019 00:30:04

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Not only are the governments of the entire world all mum on video game loot boxes since April, 2018, they are also mum on real live "loot boxes" with real life prizes like this:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/3/18165291/jake-paul-ricegum-mystery-brand-youtube-gambling-ethan-klein-kavos-memology101-loot-box

That's right. If nobody cares about people selling real life mystery boxes with real life prizes of real life values, how can one tackle the virtual Game of chance in a virtual game world for virtual items that can't be cashed out of the game like TH? :D:D:D

14-Jan-2019 16:30:37

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Wow, crazy, a controversy that blew up only a week ago has not had any legal repercussions yet? WTF why is my government not doing things instantly? Its almost like there's some sort of bureaucracy in place that slows things down, almost like there are legal procedures to go through, almost like there are paperworks to go through, almost like there are lawyers to hire and courtrooms to book. Wow, you're so completely right, these things are completely OK because no action has been taken after one entire week of the issue coming to light!

How do I add more sarcasm?


WoW. I'd really love to see what the governments will do to this "mystery boxes" internet celebrity, especially theat Belgium Minister of whatever. Oh wait... he did not even make good on his holy crusade promise against online gambling by joining force with the 15 EU countries and Washington State when he learned their real purpose is to tackle the real world 3rd party skin gambling. What a farce!!! :D

15-Jan-2019 02:35:32

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Wow, crazy, a controversy that blew up only a week ago has not had any legal repercussions yet? WTF why is my government not doing things instantly? Its almost like there's some sort of bureaucracy in place that slows things down, almost like there are legal procedures to go through, almost like there are paperworks to go through, almost like there are lawyers to hire and courtrooms to book. Wow, you're so completely right, these things are completely OK because no action has been taken after one entire week of the issue coming to light!

How do I add more sarcasm?


WoW. I'd really love to see what the governments will do to this "mystery boxes" internet celebrity, especially theat Belgium Minister of whatever. Oh wait... he did not even make good on his holy crusade promise against online gambling by joining force with the 15 EU countries and Washington State when he learned their real purpose is to tackle the real world 3rd party skin gambling. What a farce!!! :D

Hello, I'd like to live in your fantasy world where laws can be implemented in an instant and court cases can be called immediately, thanks.


The laws against real world gambling site like Mystery Brand are already out there, especially in Belgium. They could have just arrested those Youtube celebrities already but they didn't do a thing. Neither did Youtube do a thing.

Besides, why don't all the do-gooders who cried out loud against loot boxes do the same petitions, bills, etc against the actual real world gambling mystery boxes? :D:D:D

15-Jan-2019 17:05:26

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Its almost like most of the existing laws don't really apply to what happens on the internet. Its almost like the government and people of authority are still debating on how these laws should be implemented to this new territory. Crazy how they can't be convicted of something that lies in the grey area of the law! Funny how the youtubers who are calling these people out, its almost like they're trying to bring these issues to the attention of the public and in turn the government, its almost like they're actually doing something! Ah, but because these gambling sites aren't being taken down or people behind them brought to court instantly it must mean nothing is happening nor nothing will ever happen!


Why don't all those do-gooders including OP go to the governments and cry for petitions, bills, regulations against these real world gamblers on the internet then?

I encourage them to call the police to arrest them and tell them how bad their children are affected already. Yes, just go. Why waste time here in a game forum just to complain about how "evil" virtual items and virtual "gambling" simulations are but don't do the RIGHT THING in the real world?

I bet EA would raise their hands and feet to support the Belgium minster of whachamacallit to arrest those Mystery Brand real world gambling boxes too. :D:D:D

17-Jan-2019 17:59:18

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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LOL!!! Catching the attention of "more" people. Nobody has been filing any more petitions or bills.

Perhaps it catches the attention of some silly Belgium moron's attention that now they will have absolutely no argument against EA whatsoever:

His original compliant against EA was they used Ronaldo, a famous soccer player to advertise their loot boxes therefore it is gambling but other TCG like Pokemon don't have a Ronaldo mascot.

However, with famous internet personalities promoting real life loot boxes with real life prizes over real life social media but the same Belgium morn doesn't say a word, that moron simply shot his own feet. He has no argument whatsoever against EA anymore.

Yes, it catches the attention of the entire world. It tells them how stupid it is for a petty group of players to single out the video game industry. :D:D:D

18-Jan-2019 15:24:50

Dilbert2001

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Laws don't come overnight in democratic countries. Law makings are transparent even in China. :D

Bills can be added but
LAWS
don't come out of thin air tomorrow.

Law enforcement is also transparent in countries like Belgium too. When somebody or some companies like Jake Paul or EA is arrested for illegal gambling, the world will know and they will be given their due process with a DATE in COURT. Extremely obvious nothing has happened. :D:D:D

Don't even further deflect the topic to "toxic gamer rage". Nobody has talked about toxic, gamer rage or anything remotely close to it. Laws are equal and transparent to everybody in >99% of the countries in the world, no exception to game players, toxic gamer players, Larry, Curry, Moe, and/or raging toxic game players. :D:D:D

19-Jan-2019 17:05:32 - Last edited on 19-Jan-2019 17:24:02 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Even Larry, Moe and Curly know they have to go to COURT for lawsuit. No arrest, no court then there is no law enforcement
yet
obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6q37n7GDCY

ftfy

Its almost like this whole debacle is still at a very early stage.

Remind me again, how long did it take for tabacco to be regulated since it was commercialised? Oh yea, the product has been around for centuries, and it took decades of research to confirm its damage to our health, and another few more decades for various regulations to come into effect.

Now remind me again, when did this whole online gambling and microtransaction really start to gain traction, when it people begin to realise that it may be harmful. Oh right, less than a decade ago.


Governments of the entire world, especially the 15 EU countries and Washington State of the USA are still going after online gambling, yes that's right, but the online gambling they are talking about is 3rd party offsite illegal gambling (skin gambling and Real Money Player Trading). The UK Gambling Commission clearly rebuffed false news that they have any bone to pick with loot boxes. They openly clarify their stance as what the Netherland Governments call for - if nobody real money is "gambled", "bet", "wagered" "duel for" or whatever words you want to use outside the game, then it is no gambling.

https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/460657-uk-loot-boxes-no-link-gambling

No government is doing or ever can do anything to microtransaction in virtual worlds/games. They are, and have been for over 10 years, legitimate e-commerce products and regulated as such. In the case of Ireland, even loot boxes are e-commerce products too. Nobody they will and ever can do to change a thing.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/10/01/ireland-backs-down-from-labeling-loot-boxes-as-gambling

20-Jan-2019 15:14:45

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107,

There are over 9000 video game companies in the world, you better ask why didn't that Belgium minster, (read that again, just that Belgium minister in the dog house, not even the Belgium government which certainly is consisted of not just that minister but also law enforcement and judicial departments) do to the other > 9000 video game, Jagex included?

The reason is extremely simple. It is because they don't break any laws. Jagex do not break any laws. EA do not break any law. Otherwise law enforcement will have them arrested and Judicial will have them served in Court with a publicly announced date. I bet even a grade school kid or Larry, Moe and Curly know that. :D

Chris Lee's Bills are dead, long dead that we all know. Thanks for bringing them up so we can have a better laugh at this "moron":

"In the U.S., there’s very low probability anybody passes legislation to regulate loot boxes. The guys in Hawaii are just fucking morons. They’re morons. They should not only resign, but they should kill themselves. They’re so idiotic. Seriously. They’re such morons. One of the two idiot legislators said—I forget the studio.
But they said something like, “EA shut down my favorite studio in 2005 and I’ve hated them ever since.
” He said that on the record. We’re going to legislate against loot boxes? What an asshole."


These legislators are just making these bills because they were or may even be still video game industry insiders who have a stake against loot boxes. They hate some companies. They are just abusing their positions in a government division. I am glad somebody bought it up so we can see their true color.

So again, who are the "toxic raging gamers"? Unless you or somebody you know proclaim they are one of these "toxic raging gamers" I don't think anybody in this forum and thread has ever mentioned that. To me, again, regulations don't discriminate whether you are "toxic raging gamers". Shrug! :D

20-Jan-2019 15:31:50

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Skull-inky,

So? That's what I said and have been all along. Companies always want to make profits. Microtransations have been in the video game industry for over 10 years as I mentioned time over time and apparently you reiterated it with your last post.

MTX has never been a problem. It is a legitimate e-commerce products despite many players don't like it. MTX products are being regulated as all the other online e-commerce products too. Loot Boxes are also one of those e-commerce MTX products too. They have all been regulations regarding them. In fact, they are even in-game purchases self-regulations imposed by ESRB and PEGI.

Game players, the consumers of e-commerce products don't like MTX? So what? Too bad they are and have always been legitimate e-commerce products over the last 10+ years. Nothing can change it. No governments can change it and no bills can even be made to make MTX not an legitimate e-commerce product.

Yes, some governments are corrupted. As I mentioned, Chris Lee is one of those who get busted as a video game industry insider disguised as legislator. The good thing is the more they cry hopelessly, the more their true intention is exposed. Read this entire post regarding Chris Lee's moronic act:

https://wccftech.com/pachter-loot-boxes-consumers-are-stupid/

20-Jan-2019 15:55:44

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
No government is doing or ever can do anything to microtransaction in virtual worlds/games. They are, and have been for over 10 years, legitimate e-commerce products and regulated as such. In the case of Ireland, even loot boxes are e-commerce products too.

Wow, they've only been around for 10 short years? Thanks for proving my point.


10 "short" years? Thanks for proving your and my point to JAGEX that governments can't do a thing to MTX.

Come back again in 10 years... and that will be 2029 for those who don't know how "short" is 10 years. :D:D:D

21-Jan-2019 14:42:51

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Also, do you mind reminding me how many game companies have removed randomised MTX from their games or completely pulled their games off the shelf due to fear of courtcases?

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-07-12-cs-go-update-blocks-players-in-netherlands-and-belgium-from-opening-loot-boxes
https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2018/08/29/blizzard-removes-paid-loot-boxes-in-belgium/
https://www.kitguru.net/gaming/damien-cox/valve-removes-loot-boxes-from-counter-strike-global-offensive-in-belgium-and-the-netherlands/
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-09-25-arenanet-removes-loot-boxes-from-guild-wars-2-for-players-in-belgium
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2018/nov/21/square-enix-pulls-games-mobius-final-fantasy-belgium-loot-box-ban
https://europeangaming.eu/portal/latest-news/2018/09/07/27678/no-more-in-game-loot-boxes-in-belgium/


Wanna keep reiterating the point that nothing has happened? Or do you want to finally stop going in circles?


Again, these are just Steam games with Real Money Player Trading and a couple other games and nobody from the Belgium and Netherlands governments have spoken since April 2018.

You also misquoted many posts, especially the Eurogamers ones, for example since then Steam have made changes to Real Money Player Trading and odds of their loot boxes and as a results they still have loot boxes in their games in Netherlands. :D:D:D

"Earlier this year, Valve began showing players in the Netherlands what was inside the game’s loot boxes before they purchased them, following a letter from the Dutch Gaming Authority in June demanding the changes."

https://kotaku.com/valve-discloses-the-odds-for-its-new-dota-2-loot-boxes-1829854001

Now, what about EA? What about other Steam games not named CS:GO and DOTA2? What about all the over 9000 games with loot boxes? What about Jagex's TH?

Loot boxes as usual. :D:D:D

21-Jan-2019 14:57:19

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Sorry, I didn't realise that you had to tackle every single game with loot boxes simultaneously to only then be considered fighting against randomised MTX.

Providing one single example is already enough to disprove your statement:
Dilbert2001 said:
Extremely obvious nothing has happened.

Because something has happened.


Sorry I didn't realise that one of the millions of people in your city got accused of speeding almost a year, everybody in your city become murderers now. :D:D:D:D:D:D

22-Jan-2019 02:36:00 - Last edited on 22-Jan-2019 02:36:29 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Playing dumb and keep going in circle won't change a thing. Real world regulators don't allow anybody to go in circle. Even Larry, Moe and Curly know that when they go to COURT! :D:D:D

Everybody knows everythig about Belgium and Netherlands have been discussed in this thread already:

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/sl=0/forums.ws?366,367,thd,978,65988614

Both countries have said nothing since April 2018. The entire world knows it. EU knows it. Even some Lowest Common Denominator (used to be) loud mouths know it and have been shut up. Even some "morons" and "a$$holes" some veteran game industry analysts called out for being a game industry stakeholder in politician skin knows it. :D

If somebody still don't get it that they have totally failed and keep trying to go hopelessly in circle, very well. I am more than happy to keep the real world enlightened about all those fake reports.

If some people insist, I will show the truth, and start with the first fake report about Belgium action in Dec 2017 in my next post. :D:D:D

22-Jan-2019 15:41:21

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
This isn't going anywhere because you aren't explaining yourself. I don't know why you keep saying nothing has happened when some game devs have already removed loot boxes or their games entirely from certain countries. I've already provided sources.


Of course you are not going anywhere because you only quoted the misreports that loot boxes are gambling in Belgium as many false news like this one surfaced in November 2017:

https://www.vg247.com/2017/11/22/belgiums-gaming-commission-says-loot-boxes-in-games-are-gambling/

This site have the moral to correct itself a few days afterward though:

"Update: Actually, it seems that Belgium’s Gaming Commission has not made the decisive statement we believed they had."


Belgium has only decided a few games "violated" their gambling rules, but that's only according to a minister of their legislative department, but no law enforcement and judicial officials sided with him.

Just one person in Belgium says a couple of people are speeding but nobody arrests him and summon him to Court, even Larry, Moe and Curly know Belgium can't consider every one of their residents murderers. :D:D:D

23-Jan-2019 02:47:07

Dilbert2001

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In this post, we are going to look at the TRUTH why the governments think TH is not gambling while they rebut the false claims that it is.

First, it is a fallacy the governments have not gotten to Jagex’s TH regarding gambling but they will be in you know how many years later? 10 years, 30 years, 100 years or the 9000th Age?

Indeed, this article showed the TH gambling “controversy” was being revealed and even the vocal professor who made the claim can have no more words blaming TH as a form of gambling:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

"Loot box systems are gambling in my view," Griffiths says. Griffiths penned an academic paper that explores whether RuneScape's Squeal of Fortune and Treasure Hunter features should be considered gambling. He arrived at an unequivocal yes, not just because the mini-games meet the criteria for gambling set out in the Gambling Act of 2005, but because the bonds won from these mini-games have value outside of the game. (UPDATE: a representative from Jagex contacted Eurogamer to say these bonds can no longer be used for real-life services. Instead they can be used to purchase membership to the game itself. We've asked why this change was made and will update when Jagex responds.)"


So, in short, TH has been reviewed and found not gambling because no real money is involved. Even the nay-sayers can’t deny that.

On the other hand, if Jagex allowed their virtual currencies/items, regardless they are TH items, gp, bonds, Twitch Bow etc to leave their games and turn into real money, then it is gambling. That's why Duel Arena staking for real world money/benefits and/or 3rd party gambling promotions outside the game in OSRS is gambling.

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/99omj1/in_relation_to_recent_events/

Fortunately, in RS3, no illegal 3rd party gambling promotions or Duel Arena Staking of Twitch Bow for real money is found. RS3 is not gambling.

23-Jan-2019 15:28:27 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2019 15:31:40 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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From my last post (Page 22, Post 10), we should all realize, Jagex is well aware of, prepared, tested and passed all kinds of non-existing "laws" and threats quoted by some lowest common denominator people. TH is an healthy entertainment.

A key note is Jagex and other smart video game companies should stay away from hosting any kind of real money trading/dueling/staking/gambling activities. The real world regulations can only spank the skin gamblers and real money duelers. Fortunately, RS3 is not such a real world gambling game. :D

24-Jan-2019 02:33:32

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The real world regulations can only spank the skin gamblers and real money duelers,
for now
.

ftfy


In other words, you are still just spamming the same nothing.

Rest assured, people yelling nothing in the real world will accomplish nothing to the ears of the real governments, real companies and the real consumers.

However, the more they cry for nothing the more companies abide to real world regulations and self-reguatlions. Jagex obviously do the same thing and abide to the PEGI and ESRA guidelines by putting up in games purchase notice about their microtransactions, now and upcoming:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jagex.oldscape.android&hl=en_US

In-app Products
$6.99 - $99.99 per item



https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jagex.runescape.android&hl=en_US

In-app Products
$5.99 - $109.99 per item


TYVM for the bump and let all the consumers know that Jagex abide to the industry-wise self-regulations by reminding them OSRS and RS3 have and planned for in-app microtransactions going forward.
:D

28-Jan-2019 15:59:47 - Last edited on 28-Jan-2019 16:01:17 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I am repeating the same thing? I repeat nothing. I always added new and constructive information. I will definitely let Fmod and Jagex look into this nonsense next time I see it.

Nobody asked Epic to do anything. Nobody even complained about Fortnite's only loot box because it was only in its less popular PvE Save the World content. Players only buy Save the World to unlock the ability to earn V-Bucks they can use in Battle Royale where vast majority of their players go.

What governments called out Epic's Llama loot boxes? None. Epic made that change in preparation to turn Save the World from buy-to-play to free-to-play. Not that of any government actions, whatsoever.

And just to enlighten you, the randomness is still in the Llama loot boxes. Content still changes everyday but now they are being made transparent much like TH's Clairvoyant and Loot Duel.

29-Jan-2019 15:48:54

Dilbert2001

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Let me also bring you the news that the EA is not going to sell FIFA Ultimate Game Packs in Belgium starting today. However, that's just FIFA as it is the only game called out by the Belgium minister.

So that will conclude any Belgium regulation talks against any game developers whatsoever. Nobody else they can point the finger to... err... I should say no games else can they point the finger to since EA can still offer loot boxes in their other games in Belgium. :D

29-Jan-2019 15:57:15

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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So you are just linking totally unrelated events like Epic making changes to (read that again, they did not remove) Llama and non existing government regulation again obviously.

Using your logic, the other 9000 games with added with loot boxes after the last word from Belgium proved the entire industry is encouraged by the lowest common denominators of the world and added even more loot boxes, made even more money and laughed even harder at the lowest common denominators. :D:D:D

You even admitted you are just trying to claim oneshot in 999,999 attempts as a big success. Thank you for showing us how big a failure it is. And that 1 shot in 1 million attempts does not even matter because your opponent still win by a landslide. :D:D:D

30-Jan-2019 01:08:45

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
You've misunderstood my point, I never said 1 game in 999,999 needs to be restricted. Do read over again, or do you need me to explain to you like a 5 year old?


FIFA is still just one game out of the over 9000 games with loot boxes in Belgium.

Whatever point you trying to make, it won't affect the other 9000 games at all. :D:D:D

30-Jan-2019 01:32:21

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
You still don't get it? I'm saying attempts at passing a new law/bill to restrict loot boxes and online gamling, not specific a specific game. How hard is plain English to understand?

As long as 1 successful bill is passed, all games with loot boxes will be affected. Also, FIFA isn't the only game affected, EA were the only ones who did not take the steps remove loot boxes until now, Blizzard, 2k, and Valve had already done so on their own accord earlier. So try again with the fake news.


What "bill" is/was that? Belgium did not even attempt to add whatevcer new Bill you claimed.

Bills are universally applicable to all the entities in Belgium, if they even exist. Belgium just called out a few games, not even all the games made by their very own developers. They made no new bills.

Obviously they are handling Hearthstone differently from Overwatch, SWTOR and all the other EA Sports games differently from FIFA, and all the other Steam games with loot boxes differently from DOTA2 and CS:GO.

They have been using the same old existing LAW, not new "bills" that don't even exist, let alone being successful universally across every entity in Belgium. Just that they have specific "problem" with a couple of games don't mean all the other games have the same problem. Just that they think a couple of Belgium cars exceeded their speeding limit doesn't mean all the residents in Belgium are murderers.

Thank you very much for bringing up my posts. They obviously only indicate the pathetic failure of that lonely Belgium minister who are even ignored by the EU coalition. :D:D:D

Meanwhile, 9000 new games with loot boxes are being added and run in Belgium. Not only that, real people are advertising real world lootboxes under the nose of that Belgium minster. So what? What can he do? :D:D:D

30-Jan-2019 15:41:17

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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This thread is about laws and TH, definitely not about monetisation and how the other companies do whatever even without laws. You are pushing this thread way too far and way too many times already.

There is no new laws even proposed by Belgium despite they barked about it with the entire EU in 2017. That's the fact.

31-Jan-2019 00:24:00

Dilbert2001

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I only told you this thread is about government regulations and no government regulations is against MTX other than specific kinds of "loot boxes". Of course I am not going to answer your questions "of the larger topic" unless you can show how other forms of MTX has anything to do with government regulations.

For your questions "of the larger topic", there is already a thread about TH and MTX not specific to government regulations just a few threads down from this one:

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/c=bnTAmuka48g/sl=0/forums.ws?366,367,6,65940719

If you want to discuss your "larger topic" just go over there and we can have a discussion with the larger groups of forum users on the non government regulation TH or MTX issues.

01-Feb-2019 17:01:03 - Last edited on 01-Feb-2019 17:06:08 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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If a "game" doesn't provide you any game content other than casino type of gambling features such as poker, blackjack, etc, and it doesn't allow you to play anything when you don't pay with real money it can be classified as gambling in Washington State if the operator of such game makes real money out of its operation. Big Fish Casino is one of those flagged for predatory gambling. Even so, it is only illegal in one state of the entire USA.

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/big-fish-casino-video-game-constitutes-illegal-online-gambling-federal-appeals-court-rules/

In China, their video game regulations also requires a game to have entertainment features and not just casino type poker, blackjack and such. In fact, Big Fish Casino will not even get a video game license in China. At least they don't have to worry about going to Court. :D

Runescape have over 18 years of for fun entertainment and adventurous content for vast varieties of players. It is by no mean predatory gambling just because it has TH. BTW, duel arena will be flagged as predatory gambling way before TH if such hypothetical scenario comes to the attention of the real world regulations. :D

02-Feb-2019 18:00:40

Dilbert2001

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Uh Oh! Somebody want to tell the Belgium Governments EA is selling loot boxes in yet another game?

This time it is Apex Legends:

"But McCoy also noted that Apex Legends includes a particular free-to-play element that has generated a lot of ire: loot boxes. McCoy said the developers have taken steps to make loot boxes fair to the players who choose to buy them. Respawn publishes the drop rates for its loot boxes both in the in-game store and on its website, so players know what the chances are of getting the best stuff. You're guaranteed at least a mid-tier "rare" item or better in each pack, and they don't dish out duplicates of items you already have. There's also "bad luck protection," McCoy said, to keep you from buying lots of loot boxes and never getting lucky enough to acquire some of the game's best stuff. During the preview, the store said that players are guaranteed at least one legendary item, Apex Legends' rarest, for every 30 loot boxes they open."


https://www.gamespot.com/articles/apex-legends-has-loot-boxes-heres-how-they-work/1100-6464789/

But wait... this is not gambling if Hearthstone is not gambling, not even in Belgium. EA moral compass guides them to give Apex Legends players at least one guranteed legendary item for every 30 loot boxes they pay for. :)

05-Feb-2019 16:39:54

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Nex is Life said:
Dilbert2001 said:
EA moral compass guides them
ded


Don't know what you mean. But you can always call the Belgium government about it.

Oh! Don't forget they don't hire a Cristino Ronaldo as their Apex Legends spokesperson. The Belgian have to come up with a better excuse. :D

09-Feb-2019 00:28:42

Dilbert2001

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Good that EA knows Wriath, Pathfinder, Mirage, Lifeline, Gilbratar and Caustic are just common names, not somebody famous like a "Cristiano Ronaldo".

Too bad, some lowest common denominators can't even pick a bone out of EA's loot box advertisementn now. :D

BTW, Princess Alice is also a very common name, and fictional too. Who can whine about TH? Uh oh! Not even a few from the lowest common denominators of the world. :D

10-Feb-2019 16:33:36

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Good that EA knows Wriath, Pathfinder, Mirage, Lifeline, Gilbratar and Caustic are just common names, not somebody famous like a "Cristiano Ronaldo".

Too bad, some lowest common denominators can't even pick a bone out of EA's loot box advertisementn now. :D

BTW, Princess Alice is also a very common name, and fictional too. Who can whine about TH? Uh oh! Not even a few from the lowest common denominators of the world. :D


If only they though of that for Overwatch and named their characters things like Tracer, Winston or Bastion. Maybe then they would be able to ban their loot boxes since they won't be connected to famous people.

That'd help their case tremendously.
It didn't.


Overwatch was in a different "violation" than FIFA. Although there wasn't a Cristiano Ronaldo to advertise their shiny Golden lootboxes, Overwatch put a distinctive dramatic visual animation and audio effect on their lootboxes. They shoot the loot box high up the sky and then drop to the ground in a flashy way and some lowest common denominator "government" think it is deceiving the consumers to thinks it is all special prizes they have won.

Now you look at Alice and her TH boxes... Princess Alice just claps her hand the natural way when you open your TH chest. She doesn't even jump up and down in joy with your prizes regardless they are a few logs or 200 mil gp. There is no over-dramatization or deceiving e-commerce practice there. :D

Oh! Apex also does nothing special to the visual and audio effects on ther loot boxes. They can also shrug at the lowest common denominator governments too. :D

11-Feb-2019 16:28:40 - Last edited on 11-Feb-2019 16:30:35 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Now you look at Alice and her TH boxes... Princess Alice just claps her hand the natural way when you open your TH chest. She doesn't even jump up and down in joy with your prizes regardless they are a few logs or 200 mil gp. There is no over-dramatization or deceiving e-commerce practice there.

There are confetti and fireworks whenever you open a chest as well. Don't try to downplay it.

Pretty much this and not to mention the "explosion" only gets bigger the rarer the prize. Just like how most other lootboxes make a show of it if you win something "big".


When I get a clue scroll thieving or a bird nest woodcutting, I get a sound effect. When I level up, I get an "explosion" effect. None of these NORMAL effects mean anything "rare" at all.

Don't tell me it is rare to level up, or you should pray the lord for getting a bird nest. :D:D:D:D:D:D

12-Feb-2019 14:41:47

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
I'm not talking any old explosion to mark an achievement in game. Stop trying change the subject seeing as you kick and scream every time things don't go your way when things don't go your way and you yell "off topic!".

Any here's proof of what I mentioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXisUlwnMjg

Take note of how the chest bursts when it's just you average white or yellow prize then skip to 2:17 in the video and you'll notice a pretty big difference to how they open. Proof that they have a similar "dramatic visual and audio" when you open your th chests just like in Overwatch.


Showing different quality of audio/visual effects on different quality of items means Jagex is not deceiving the players. If they show the same effect on white and purple items dramatically then it may be a problem.

Didn't I tell you already we get different audio effect when we can a bird nest and a clue scroll drop? The different sounds are appropriately for different quality of loots.

13-Feb-2019 16:06:50

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Over a year after the Crying Hawaiian'Loot Box Bills failed badly:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/02/no-video-game-loot-boxes-for-buyers-under-21-says-proposed-hawaii-bills/

No more U.S. Bills is being introduced again this year. This is a little bit surprising because politicians will fill bills for votes and donations usually even they know they won't get to anywhwere... Perhaps even these politicians have turned tail against loot boxes already. :)

16-Feb-2019 15:58:02

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
Dilbert2001 said:
No U.S. Bills is being introduced
yet
this year.


ftfy

Also this might have something to do with why no new bills have been introduced
yet
.

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/11/the-ftc-says-it-will-investigate-loot-boxes/


LOL@"yet". yet yet yet yet yet for years. :D:D:D

Let me tell you everybody can ask the BBB and FTC to investigate any sales related issues and their answer will always be "yes". But no actions meaning nothing.

In fact, FTC has responded with “we don’t have anything to add at this point” to Simons’ affirmation".

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/29/18118164/ftc-loot-box-investigation-legal-analysis

First, check the date of this "investigation". It was in November 2018, almost 3 months ago and "we don't have anything to add".
You can also ask the FTC to investigate the same thing too. Unlike making new bills, you don't need a politician to help you at all
. So help yourself and let me help you with FTC's contact... Oh! You need to give them your real identity: :D

https://www.ftc.gov/contact


Look at what that Polygon article tells you what FTC actually does and what they have done in the past:

“There was a time in the late ’70s and early ’80s when the FTC initiated numerous procedures against entire industries,” said Rothbard. “Children’s advertising, tobacco, the funeral industry and real estate, for example. But I can’t think of one that covers an entire industry in the in the last several years.”

Rothbard said the FTC is less liberal than in the past, and is reluctant to pass new rules governing entire industries."


They only have very limited powers to change things slightly in certain industries, and they haven't done a thing at all since the '80s.. that's like 40 years ago. :D:D:D:D:D:D

17-Feb-2019 15:27:53 - Last edited on 17-Feb-2019 15:32:14 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
LOL@"yet". yet yet yet yet yet for years. :D:D:D

Remind me again, how many years decades it took for tobacco, alcohol etc. to be regulated.


Good that you know it took years decades and there are never any proven facts that whatever you feel needs to be regulated will be regulated.

Meanwhile, there is no regulation on that "whatever you feel needs to be regulated" so companies are happy to ring up their registers. Jagex included, of course. Why should all those real companies in the world care? :D:D:D

Also, don't forget in this context we are talking about the filling of the (non-existing) next US loot boxes Bills, not even laws. Politicians don't need to be involved in the FTC "investigation" Ashlin107 claimed to be the "reason" why there is no more loot box bills for so long. Ashlin107's "reason" is not even a "reason" since there is nothing prohibiting the politicians for asking the FTC even as average consumers and filling loot boxes bills as politicians. :D

18-Feb-2019 02:57:52 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2019 02:59:38 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Politicians don't have to wait for anything because they can also amend their Bills. You think real politicians in the real world don't know how to amend their Bills? Now that's extremely funny!!!!!!! :D:D:D

Real politicians should also know there is absolutely "no findings" they get from the FTC. They are not doing anything behind the scene neither. In fact, even Maggie Hassan did not get a single word from FTC neither so she had to send another letter in January 31, 2019:

"Senator Maggie Hassan (D-NH), who asked the Federal Trade Commission to launch an investigation into video game loot boxes, is now asking the head of the commission for an update on the status of that investigation “as soon as practicable,” a time table, as well as proposed next steps, according to a copy of the letter shared with Variety.

The letter comes about two months after FTC chairman Joseph Simons agreed to investigate video game loot boxes to ensure that children are being protected and parents are educated on the matter."


https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/loot-box-investigation-ftc-timeline-1203125164/

Don't know whether it is a coincidence or for whatever reason Maggie Hassan failed to acknowledge FTC ignored her on her own official Website:

https://www.hassan.senate.gov/news/in-the-news/national-coverage-of-senator-hassan-securing-guarantee-from-ftc-chairman-to-investigate-loot-boxes-in-video-games

You can all contact Maggie Hassan to verify this and remind her to update her blogs so everybody knows the progress (or lack of, nothing, nada, zero) of that "investigation". :D:D:D

18-Feb-2019 17:41:28 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2019 17:42:45 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Good that you know it took years decades and there are never any proven facts that whatever you feel needs to be regulated will be regulated.

Sorry what? I'm pretty sure there are regulations for tobacco and alcohol. Are you trying to agree with me?


So? But the FTC did not make these regulations or any regualtions at all the last decades.

Prostitution has been an issue for hundreds of years and I am sure it is 9000% more problematic to most people in the USA and the World, but there are still no definitive regulations across the USA states, let alone the entire world for hundreds of years. :D:D:D

19-Feb-2019 17:16:51 - Last edited on 19-Feb-2019 17:17:04 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Good that you know it took years decades and there are never any proven facts that whatever you feel needs to be regulated will be regulated.

Sorry what? I'm pretty sure there are regulations for tobacco and alcohol. Are you trying to agree with me?


So? But the FTC did not make these regulations or any regualtions at all the last decades.

Prostitution has been an issue for hundreds of years and I am sure it is 9000% more problematic to most people in the USA and the World, but there are still no definitive regulations across the USA states, let alone the entire world for hundreds of years. :D:D:D

I'm not talking about FTC? I'm talking about regulations coming into effect, in general.


If you are not talking about FTC then please don't jump into my discussion about FTC with the other user. Thanks for your cooperation and I have asked for your such cooperation numerous times on different occasions already.

20-Feb-2019 17:17:38

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
So you find it funny that law makers are clearly waiting for the ftc's verdict so their bills have as high chance of passing as possible? Well I guess small things amuse small minds. Yes they can make bills when ever they want but if they want those bills to actually succeed they have to play smart. Surprising I know.

Also in your article you posted it also states that the FTC have began the initial steps in their investigation. It could be they don't know how long their investigation will take and they can't give an update
yet
.

But why don't you contact Maggie Hassan if you're that confident that no progress has been made and give us proof that nothing has done instead of celebrating how you believe nothing will happen to the company you constantly fanboy over on these forums.


Surprising you don't know everything you "guessed" more than a year ago on the thread you created totally failed... US Bills... Petitions... GDC loot box crisis... Do you want me to point you to that post again? :D:D:D:D:D:D

FTC's response to all inquiries regarding consumer issues. That's their job but nothing will be actually investigated if nobody shows up. In my last post from Variety, I clearly showed you Maggie Hasan has no clue whatsoever herself and she did not even know what's next. Clearly, she has been ignored.

You are the one who brought up FTC. Of course, you want to call Maggie Hassan if you really want anybody not to see how empty your empty posts mean. For us who can care least about the nothingness FTC is doing with Maggie Hassan, why should we even bother to call her? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

20-Feb-2019 17:25:17

Dilbert2001

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Told you clearly with my post on Page 27, Post 5 FTC's procedure is very transparent. Everybody like Polygon can inquire about the (lack of progress) of certain consumer complaints.

FTC's doctrine is Protecting the Consumers
, not the politicians. They handle every
consumer issue
with the same definite
"YES"
.

As a matter of fact, the former FTC official clearly told us the stance of FTC. FTC don't want to make laws since they know it is very hard for them to due to lack of legislative powes, and haven't been pushing for that for like 40 years already. Instead, they have been strongly pushing for self-regulation for different industries because they think anti-trust is their main concern and allowing as many industries to self-regulate to cater to different kinds of consumers is mission critical. For instance, FTC don't push for data security and protection, alcohol and parental control regulations like GDPR but they persuade the industries to self regulate.

For what will FTC do if they have something to do next? The article I quoted clearly mentioned that. It is what the BBB will do. They will need real life complaints with real life people filing them with real life identities. Then if there is need, the FTC/BBB will act as mediators and the consumers and the companies will meet at a real world table. So far nothing has happened obviously because they will need real world complaints. :D:D:D

As for pushing for self-regulation... sure it is absolutely great for the video game industry... but wait... don't we already have ESRB, PEGI, IDGA and the likes? Aren't they already calling for the parental guidance, in-game/in-app purchase labels and transparency of the loot boxes already? Yes, that's right.... The industry has been calling for and enforcing these things within their chartered domain... They don't even need FTC to ask them to. :D:D:D

21-Feb-2019 15:42:42 - Last edited on 21-Feb-2019 15:51:37 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18236352/loot-box-video-game-ftc-workshop-hassan-congress

Looks like they are doing something and I'm not the only one "guessing" what's going to happen with Loot Boxes. Also I already know the FTC don't have legislative powers but that's where the actual government comes in and their investigation will make laws easier to make. I believe we've already covered this.

Plus even if they do push further into self regulation it'll only mean we'll see less or even no loot boxes sooner. Otherwise well the bills will come and sooner or latter they'll have to remove them any way.


Don't know which part you still don't understand that I (and the former FTC official) clearly told you already:

"For what will FTC do if they have something to do next? The article I quoted clearly mentioned that. It is what the BBB will do. They will need real life complaints with real life people filing them with real life identities. Then if there is need, the FTC/BBB will act as mediators and the consumers and the companies will meet at a real world table. So far nothing has happened obviously because they will need real world complaints."


That's exactly what the "public workshop" is for. Last year, FTC received 2.8 mil consumer complaints, that was like every 1 American consumer out of 100 filed a complaint and FTC said "YES" to investigation.

The "public workshop" is exactly what I told you. It is a public mediation talk. Everybody can attend so they can show everybody in the room where the game developers hurt their pixels. That's exactly I told you already, even without a crystal ball because FTC did that in their last 30-40 years to all kinds of industries as outlined by the former FTC official but nothing came out but more self-regulation and parental guidance websites things like the ESRB we already have. :D

26-Feb-2019 17:51:51

Dilbert2001

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This (exclusive) news from Variety actually shows the color of what FTC is going to do with the exact quote in their letter to Hassan:

"Simons also pointed out the FTC has a “long history of consumer protection activities relating to the video game industry and children.”

“For example, at the request of the President and Congress starting in 1999, the FTC issued a series of reports on the extent to which the
movie, music, and video game industries
marketed violent entertainment to children. As the video game industry has rapidly evolved, we have remained vigilant for potential consumer protection issues, and we have continued outreach efforts to
self-regulatory bodies such as the Entertainment Software Rating Board
.”

Thursday’s letter comes in response to a letter sent by Hassan last month asking for an update on the status of the investigation, a time table, as well as proposed next steps"


https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/ftc-plans-public-workshop-on-loot-boxes-wont-comment-on-legal-investigation-exclusive-1203146123/

Although not quoted by other journalists/blogs, FTC has actually clearly stated their instance... and self-regulatory bodies such as ESRB and they firmly refuted any criticism that they are not doing the right thing already.

27-Feb-2019 16:01:56 - Last edited on 27-Feb-2019 16:02:49 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
29 pages. Lol.


Yes LOL! But not just from these 29 pages of complete nothing since there was another 1000+ posts failed thread of exactly the same complete nothing started around November 2017 but now abandoned.

Let's face the real world bloody truth. There have only been more loot boxes since these complete nothing moaning about the non-existing "net" from the governments. You see all kinds of new loot boxes from new games like Apex Legends, CoD: Black Ops 4, Destiny 2, Artifacts, Assasin Creed, etc etc etc. There can only be more.

It has actually been worse in the real world regarding government regulations since real world loot boxes for real money are getting more and more serious everyday. Now we have real world movie stars, real world investment fund managers controlling $700 mil real world $$$ of assets and cryto currency exchanges bringing them out to the real world:

https://www.polygon.com/2019/3/4/18246712/real-life-loot-boxes-wax-virl-itemunbox-gambling

Where are the real world governments? Look, the real world "criminals" are doing real money loot boxes with the endorsements of real world celebrities and investment fund managers. LOL!!!

Where is that Belgium minister of whachamacallit? Where is Christ Lee with his failed loot box "bills"? Is Margie Hassan going to repeat her same old "it is a step in the right direction"? :D:D:D

05-Mar-2019 15:16:04

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
I'm flattered that you'd go and type a essay for me


You should be flattered that the others would go and type essays and essays out of nothing for you. To me it is really simple, I just copy and pasted real world, living and breathing information from real world sources. There are heaps and heaps of real information everywhere in the cyber space freely available to the public. Piece of cake really. :D:D:D

05-Mar-2019 17:59:31

Dilbert2001

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Untrimslay said:
Meh, i've probably spent £2-3k in the last few years on RS. Do i care? Nope. Because i spend within my means and don't consider it an issue.

I wouldn't want PTW or MTX to be removed, but i could see with their frequency how someone could be tempted to spend way too much. We do need a balance.


The balance is already there. It is called natural selection. It is economics 101.

The free market will make a balance between the producers and the consumers naturally and automatically.

Governments have both no say to pay-to-win or MTX and they actually want as much as them as possible if they have a say since it only means more tax for them. So they are smart to move the invisible hands off the market. :)

11-Mar-2019 21:58:21

Dilbert2001

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We are just a few days from a full year ago when the 2 and only 2 countries who have made a few regulatory comments and one of them actually clearly stated without real money going out of the a game, its loot boxes are not gambling whatsoever.

Since then, even the handful games which were affected in Belgium have continued to put loot boxes in their games outside Belgium and even put more in their new games such as CoD: Black OP 4 and Apex Legends.

Better luck next decade century, if the real world governments begin to find a reason to accuse e-commerce with virtual items as "gambling", but by then all pigs will probably walk in 2 legs and play dices like the skeletons in Jagex's own OSRS page. :D

28-Mar-2019 16:07:45

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Dilbert2001 said:
This (exclusive) news from Variety actually shows the color of what FTC is going to do with the exact quote in their letter to Hassan:

"Simons also pointed out the FTC has a “long history of consumer protection activities relating to the video game industry and children.”

“For example, at the request of the President and Congress starting in 1999, the FTC issued a series of reports on the extent to which the
movie, music, and video game industries
marketed violent entertainment to children. As the video game industry has rapidly evolved, we have remained vigilant for potential consumer protection issues, and we have continued outreach efforts to
self-regulatory bodies such as the Entertainment Software Rating Board
.”

Thursday’s letter comes in response to a letter sent by Hassan last month asking for an update on the status of the investigation, a time table, as well as proposed next steps"


https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/ftc-plans-public-workshop-on-loot-boxes-wont-comment-on-legal-investigation-exclusive-1203146123/

Although not quoted by other journalists/blogs, FTC has actually clearly stated their instance... and self-regulatory bodies such as ESRB and they firmly refuted any criticism that they are not doing the right thing already.


For those who don't know, the date is set for the FTC workshop: August 7, 2019. But sorry, they did not mention "gambling" whatsoever in the discussion. It will be just a study on behavior of children.

It is open house, everybody can attend... and it means YOU too. But a reminder, you need verifiable ID as they said the FTC regulation requires it and participants are also required to agree to have their data and comments passed onto real world parties who are interested.

09-Apr-2019 15:40:42

Dilbert2001

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"Topics this workshop will cover include:

A look at the in-game transaction landscape, including the origins and evolution of loot boxes and their role in game play and the digital marketplace;
Research examining consumer behavior, including child and adolescent behavior, in the context of video games and digital transactions; and
A discussion of consumer awareness and education about in-game digital transactions, including the mechanics, marketing, and financial commitments associated with loot boxes."


https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/events-calendar/inside-game-unlocking-consumer-issues-surrounding-loot-boxes

Oh nice, we get to know the history and all academic of loot boxes and how it affects the market places and the consumers behaviors. Good also to make consumer aware of what actually is in-game digital transactions like what ESRB and PEGI did alrady.

But wait... nothing about "gambling" is cited... :(

Oh, everybody can attend. It is open house. All the FTC ask for is to collect and possibly distribute your contact information for future references under the FTC Act and FIOC:

Under the Freedom of Information Act (“FOIA”) or other laws, we may be required to disclose to outside organizations the information you provide when you pre-register. The Commission will consider all timely and responsive public comments, whether filed in paper or electronic form, and as a matter of discretion, we make every effort to remove home contact information for individuals from the public comments before posting them on the FTC website.

"The FTC Act and other laws we administer permit the collection of your pre-registration contact information and the comments you file to consider and use in this proceeding as appropriate. For additional information, including routine uses permitted by the Privacy Act, see the Commission’s comprehensive Privacy Policy."

09-Apr-2019 15:49:15

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
If you are interested in affecting lootboxes, visit this site:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2019/04/ftc-workshop-looks-loot-boxes#comment-547730

or send an email to here: lootboxworkshop@ftc.gov

let them know about predatory gambling like runescape treasure hunter.



Don't forget to show this to the FTC:

"Our Easter celebration is also a wonderful opportunity to support two very worthwhile charities. Keep an eye out for the representatives of CPSL Mind and The Prince’s Trust hanging around the fete. Donating to them will not only support their incredible work, but will increase the rate in which you find crystallised chocolate fragments. It's a win-win!"


Yes, that's right. Jagex is teaming up with UK charity on their promotions with Mystery Loot Boxes. That's right, go tell Prince Harry about it too. :D:D:D:D:D:D

21-Apr-2019 19:17:00

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
Dilbert2001 said:
I Lack Heart said:
If you are interested in affecting lootboxes, visit this site:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2019/04/ftc-workshop-looks-loot-boxes#comment-547730

or send an email to here: lootboxworkshop@ftc.gov

let them know about predatory gambling like runescape treasure hunter.



Don't forget to show this to the FTC:

"Our Easter celebration is also a wonderful opportunity to support two very worthwhile charities. Keep an eye out for the representatives of CPSL Mind and The Prince’s Trust hanging around the fete. Donating to them will not only support their incredible work, but will increase the rate in which you find crystallised chocolate fragments. It's a win-win!"


Yes, that's right. Jagex is teaming up with UK charity on their promotions with Mystery Loot Boxes. That's right, go tell Prince Harry about it too. :D:D:D:D:D:D

Dont forget to mention that even drug cartels do charity, doesnt make the money any cleaner, city of miami is build on cocaine and blood ridden money. gambling addicts supporting a charity, but who is supporting the gambling addicts? not you at least.


Don't forget loot boxes is not drug or gambling and this FTC loot box workshop is not about drug or gambling but just to educate the consumers what are loot boxes. :D:D:D:D:D:D

22-Apr-2019 16:07:53

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Mini JIT said:
Silly question but are bonds also classed as gambling? You can buy a bond from Jagex for a fixed price with real money but then sell it on the GE for in game gp and as the gp you get is random that's gambling?

So by the logic of this thread they need to be removed also. Some people wont like going back to having to pay for membership with real money again.


That's trading or investing for capital gain.

Investing your money in the stock markets can be considered gambling by many countries too. However, except a few extreme communist countries, it is not illegal gambling whatsoever. Don't forget most kinds of "gambling" activities in the real world are not illegal.

02-May-2019 18:14:24

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
'US Senator's Bill Proposes Ban On Loot Boxes And Egregious Microtransactions'

https://kotaku.com/u-s-senator-introduces-bill-to-ban-loot-boxes-and-pay-1834612226

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y3TZSB2gjg


Yes, ban Bond and all the MTX too. Yes, ban OSRS too. Yes, ban all the multiplayer online games too.

But wait..., I said it 9000 times. Everybody can propose anything. Every politican can throw up a bill but it doesn't mean a thing... just like all the failed US loot boxes bill last year.

And don't forget, this bill is not just about loot boxes but all MTX, and it was supposed to be filed many months ago. :D:D:D

09-May-2019 02:24:37

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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LOL!!!! Let me remind all you MTX haters and dreamers against it that Jagex has only 2% child gamers.

No hypothetical laws protecting child gamers that even if they would pass and be enforced would hurt Jagex's business as the remaining 2% of their "child gamers" would turn 18 overnight. :D:D:D

Besides, such "addictive" internet e-commerce marketing practices targeted at children were already being brought against e-bay since the beginning of this century but we should all know e-bay has been business as usual all the time.

No governments can ban e-commerce. Nobody can ban e-bay. In fact, even age verification is already ruled unconstituational in the USA. Nobody can even enforce it. They only need to put up a parental guidance statement much like one suggested by ESRA and that's it and all the real world responsibilites will be in the parents' court.

09-May-2019 15:02:41

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
LOL!!!! Let me remind you that anyone can lie about their age on the internet.


Who said that? If they couldn't lie, how come there were parents complaining about their kids using their credit cards to make online payments to ebay and video games? :D:D:D

You know when they really can't lie? Let me tell you. That's when some "13 year old kids" try to complain about the payments and Jagex ask them to show their real world identities with real world ID proofs and uh oh... they can't lie or they go to jail. :D:D:D

09-May-2019 15:28:53 - Last edited on 09-May-2019 15:31:11 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/bm7f4s/us_senator_to_introduce_bill_to_ban_loot_boxes/

Hm. I wonder how long before the UK, Russia, France, Australia, Canada and every other place gets sick of the game companies shit and does the same.


Hm. They don't. These countries, particularly UK which is in the same vein of laws as Ireland already have well established laws about e-commerce and parental guidance already.

And more importantly, these countries don't even have a legistrative system like the US Congress which allows any bozo to submit >9000 aimless bills every year. :D

09-May-2019 17:16:46 - Last edited on 09-May-2019 17:17:25 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
I didn't know you were from the future. Tell me, what's it like living in 2039? :)


So are you from the future? It won't matter either way.

The US Congress type of legislative system doesn't exist in all the countries you mentioned now. Please don't further deflect the topic to in the future all the other countries will also allow anybody to fill 9000 bills a year. :D:D:D

09-May-2019 17:33:21

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
You make it sound as though new laws can't be added to the countries I mentioned. :)

Are you always this dense? ;)


When are these "new laws" going to be added to the countries you mentioned? What are they and why should they be added?

Why can't "new laws" like every video game must have loot boxes and MTX add to these countries?

We have already gone through this numerous times in this thread. There is nothing constructive to discuss if you can't even tell what new laws are added to what countries in what years in the future and who are going to add them. Absolutely no point to go in circle repeatedly.

09-May-2019 18:03:13

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
I dunno, eventually I guess? It's not as though you can add new laws overnight now is it? :)

Just look at Belgium. ;)

And to be more precise, It was you going in circles with Urek. ;););););)

As I said on last page, You really do love grasping on to thin straws don't you?

Now what was it again.. Oh ya, I believe this where I add the countless :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D's like a broken record.

Oh and 1 more for good measure. :D

;)


For the record, Belgium did not add new law at all. They have been using the same law toward loot boxes since they made the statements against certain loot boxes in April 2018.

So you don't know anything and you asked me the crazy question if I was from the future? So you can guess the way you want to guess but why can't I "guess" eventually all the countries will add laws to make MTX mandatory in every game?

I don't know what Urek or if he was going in circle, don't even bother to check. But since you already knew that and you can even name somebody trying to go in circle, all I can say is thank you for your guess without any reasoning and there is no point to go in circle just based on pointless and reasonless guesses with you. :D:D:D

09-May-2019 18:14:39 - Last edited on 09-May-2019 18:15:24 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Light Gaia said:
As I see it, Belgium added a new law against lootboxes in 2018 thanks to a certain comment on reddit, ya know, the one that got over 600k downvotes. Don't say Belgium didn't add a new law when they did in fact do so in 2018 which was, in all honesty, not that long ago unless of course you happen to come from the future hence why I asked what it was like in 2039. ;)

As for the future part, You made it sound as though the countries I mentioned can't add a new law against MTX simply because they don't have their own equivalent to Congress. Your funeral. ;);)

For the 3rd paragraph, It wasn't a guess, You are Urek had this 'discussion' throughout the whole thread. You were going in circles. I'm sorry your like Seren and can't take the truth. ;););)

Now, if you don't mind me, I'm going to take my exit and go do some Agility at ape atoll, I have no desire to go in to a 30 page circle game with you. ;);););)

FAREWELL, MR :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D spammer.


Belgium did not add any new laws regarding loot boxes. Please specifiy what law it is otherwise.

If you prefer to go in circle in your monkey suit in the Ape Atoll, be my guest. There is no door so it won't hit you on your way out. :D:D:D

09-May-2019 18:50:32

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
LOL!!!! Let me remind you that anyone can lie about their age on the internet.


Who said that? If they couldn't lie, how come there were parents complaining about their kids using their credit cards to make online payments to ebay and video games? :D:D:D

You know when they really can't lie? Let me tell you. That's when some "13 year old kids" try to complain about the payments and Jagex ask them to show their real world identities with real world ID proofs and uh oh... they can't lie or they go to jail. :D:D:D

Do show me a case of a 13 year old being sent to jail, it'll definitely be an interesting read.


If you don't see
"13 year old kids"
is in quotation marks, I don't know how to help you.

So in real life, if some parents claimed his "13 year old kids" bought some pixels but claimed that's against his will, and a video game developer, say Jagex, asked the "13 year old kids" to come forward so they can investigate because GDPR or other real life laws require.

Upon further review, the "13 year old kids" show up with the ID of some grownup... guess who is going to win in Court and who is going to jail. :D:D:D:D:D:D

09-May-2019 23:49:26

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Posts: 10,090Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
LOL!!!! Let me remind you that anyone can lie about their age on the internet.


Who said that? If they couldn't lie, how come there were parents complaining about their kids using their credit cards to make online payments to ebay and video games? :D:D:D

You know when they really can't lie? Let me tell you. That's when some "13 year old kids" try to complain about the payments and Jagex ask them to show their real world identities with real world ID proofs and uh oh... they can't lie or they go to jail. :D:D:D

Do show me a case of a 13 year old being sent to jail, it'll definitely be an interesting read.


If you don't see
"13 year old kids"
is in quotation marks, I don't know how to help you.

So in real life, if some parents claimed his "13 year old kids" bought some pixels but claimed that's against his will, and a video game developer, say Jagex, asked the "13 year old kids" to come forward so they can investigate because GDPR or other real life laws require.

Upon further review, the "13 year old kids" show up with the ID of some grownup... guess who is going to win in Court and who is going to jail. :D:D:D:D:D:D

So you can't prove your point, got it. Didn't need to type out so many sentences just to say that.


Prove what point? I clearly told you the "13 year old kids" I explicitly put in quotations referred to the ones who said there were "13 year old kids" on the internet but not in real life. :D:D:D

10-May-2019 15:45:36

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
i wouldnt mind if every service involving money was made k18, even member ;)


Essentially they can just do what ebay is doing easily:

"A person under 18 can use an adult's account with the permission of the account holder. However, the account holder is responsible for everything done with that account.

You can report a user to us if you believe they're under 18. You should include their username and any messages or email you've received from them."


Any video game companies can just link a child player's account to his parent's payment account with the approval of the parent. No more "oh my kids are wiping my pastics behind my back" nonsense. :D

Or they could just apply this to their players in Missouri only if this Bill passed in like 20 years and be enforced in yet another 20 years. Well, Jagex has 2% child players and how many of them are actually from Missouri? :D:D:D

11-May-2019 18:02:48 - Last edited on 11-May-2019 19:28:26 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Runescape is not "predatory gambling", not even the couple of Belgium government officials in their own petty island said it is.

BTW, the video game industry is exposing the dirty laundry of the Belgium Gambling Commission. The BGC is in hot water as they pretty much admitted they leaked reports and harbor their own equally "guilty" Belgium companies like the ones who operate Pokemon games. :D:D:D

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-05-28-games-industry-being-dragged-through-the-mud-by-belgian-loot-box-ruling

"According to Verbruggen, the civil servants of the BGC leaked the report to the press without consulting the commission's elected representatives. Additionally, he said the BGC didn't consult with stakeholders in the games industry at any point while compiling the report."


"Under the current definition, Verbruggen noted that even a school raffle is technically illegal, as are trading card games such as Pokémon. However, there are certain exemptions under Belgian law. It's worth noting that Cartmundi, one of the largest playing card manufacturers in the world, which also makes cards for Pokémon and Hasbro, is a Belgian firm."


The video game industry is not lobbying these so-called "governments". They are going to the expose their unethical and unfair, if not unlawful and corruptive practice to their own real governments and the whole world. :D:D:D

29-May-2019 17:36:39

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Throwing flimsy allegations isn't the same as exposing.


Flimsy allegations? BGC did not deny them and even the source (Gameindustry.biz) noticed that:

"In an email to GamesIndustry.biz, BGC director Peter Naessens did not directly deny the allegation that the report was leaked to the press"

30-May-2019 16:04:07

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Not denying them doesn't make it not flimsy


LOL!!! When even an anti-loot boxes source like Gamesindustry.biz willfully pointed out BGC's shady act, you knew this is not going to be good for BGC and some Belgium officials in their political system and the eyes of their countrymen.

The fact that the game industry can even find out "a servant of the BGC leaked the source" and the name of the Belgium companies the BGC and certain government officials exempted with no reason, you know the game industry has done their homework. Uh Oh!!! Who said they were lobbing? Well, certainly they are spending their time to expose the corrupted governments rather. :D

30-May-2019 23:31:20

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
*Yawn*

Yea sure, w/e, update me when they go to court about it.


LOL!!! They won't go to court because Belgium is done. They haven't said a word since April of last year and they are not making any more noise to the EU since it has adopted the PEGI and ESRB standard and put that Belgium minister on an isolated island. :D

Belgium is just going to finish up their current batch of a handful game developers and then shut up and leave all the 9000 x 9000 other games with loot boxes running in their country. They can't fight the entire game industry, particularly when there are mounts of evidence and rats against them. The smartest thing they can do is what Netherlands has been doing - totally back off. :D

And the game industry is fine with it, especially when the biggies like EA and ATVI who hardly care about petty Belgium have moved on to other more profitable countries.

31-May-2019 02:09:25 - Last edited on 31-May-2019 02:11:00 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Ask and ye shall receive

https://play.google.com/about/monetization-ads/

Now that both App store and Google Play require the game devs to disclose the odds for any randomised MTX, the first step to regulating these pesky virtual gambling in these "9000x9000 mobile games" is complete!

Dilbert, turns out you were right all along!! Things do move pretty fast!


LOL x 9000!!! What pretty fast? App Store made that rule almost 1.5 years ago, yes 18 freaking months.... Waa!!! That's "fast" only for Google to do the same right thing 18 freaking months later. :D

So you think all the over 9000 games that have no problems whatsoever showing their odds on App Stores for 18 months will all of a sudden have a problem showing the same odds on Google? Just a silly joke. :D

In fact, all along I think it is only fair for all games to reveal the odds of their RNG based features. I always encourage Jagex to reveal their odds too but even without my encouragement, they will have to show the odds in China. It is just a matter of time.

01-Jun-2019 16:53:50

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
And if not for this scary new bill looming over the shoulders of Google and other game devs/publishers/platform providers, how much longer would we have had to wait for any change? Probably an eternity because who would want to regulate an unethical, dirty, predatory, easy cash grab?

18 months is fast, I don't know what you're talking about. If you can show me any other regulations that moved at a significantly quicker rate that didn't have disastrous consequences to prove me wrong, be my guest. But up until now, you haven't given a single example while I've shown several examples of the opposite.


"Scary" new bill? App Store asked for reveal of odds 18 months way ahead of this "scary new" Silly Rabbit, Games are not for kids "bill". Most of the biggest games even voluntarily revealed the odds of their loot boxes outside App Store. Who's scared? And don't forget no laws required them to reveal any odds too. These games just have nothing to be "scared" regarding the odds of their loot boxes.

Likewise, even Jagex hasn't directly revealed the odds of TH, they have been revealing the odds of a lot of their other RNG based game content for a long time already. They have also been putting more transparency to some of the TH content, like the Clairvoyance promotion they are running now, as well as Loot Duel and such? Why? There is really nothing to be worried from the perspective of games that give fair payout from the RNG based content.

You have shown several examples of WHAT? All I see is nobody is afraid of revealing the odds of loot boxes? Who has cried "no. no... we can't tell because our odds are low"? Look at PUBG and FIFA and Apex Legends... their odds are very low to get the top prize from their loot boxes... like 1 in over 10,000 in the case of PUBG? But they showed the odds voluntarily without even shrugging! Shrug! So what? They did that way before Google and the non-existing "bills". :D

03-Jun-2019 15:36:36

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
"Scary" new bill? App Store asked for reveal of odds 18 months way ahead of this "scary new" Silly Rabbit, Games are not for kids "bill". Most of the biggest games even voluntarily revealed the odds of their loot boxes outside App Store. Who's scared? And don't forget no laws required them to reveal any odds too. These games just have nothing to be "scared" regarding the odds of their loot boxes.

LOOL the bill is so scary that it spooked Apple to force apps to reveal the odds to the gambling apps before the bill was even drafted!!!

Or maybe it was because of China?
Dilbert2001 said:
Likewise, even Jagex hasn't directly revealed the odds of TH, they have been revealing the odds of a lot of their other RNG based game content for a long time already. They have also been putting more transparency to some of the TH content, like the Clairvoyance promotion they are running now, as well as Loot Duel and such? Why? There is really nothing to be worried from the perspective of games that give fair payout from the RNG based content.

Because they're not selling their product in China. The Clairvoyance is just another coy method of making players feel they have agency. The "potential" prizes has always been displayed at the bottom, nothing new here.


What a joke about Apple's "scary" odds revealing EULA update 1.5 year ago scaring anybody. Didn't I tell you nobody is afraid to reveal their odds.

Please tell us which game has a problem... or even make the slightest complain? Uh Oh! Absolutely nobody. :D

10-Jun-2019 15:42:24

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
You have shown several examples of WHAT? All I see is nobody is afraid of revealing the odds of loot boxes? Who has cried "no. no... we can't tell because our odds are low"? Look at PUBG and FIFA and Apex Legends... their odds are very low to get the top prize from their loot boxes... like 1 in over 10,000 in the case of PUBG? But they showed the odds voluntarily without even shrugging! Shrug! So what? They did that way before Google and the non-existing "bills".

LOOL! FIFA is so scared of revealing the abysmally low odds getting good players they had to label it as <1% chance instead of 0.000001% chance!!

PUBG showed their odds because Tencent wanted to sell the game in China! It was far from voluntary! Google isn't the one initiating the change, they're just catching up with the rest of the world.


Again, who is scared. They voluntarily released the odds way ago in China. FIFA is bringing in so much money from China. What can you do?

In case you are so out of touch of the real world facts happening, of course, in the real world, Tencent is not doing anythng with PUBG in China anymore because the government regulation on Blood, Gore and Violence stalled its approval. Tencent has replaced PUBG with Game For Peace. The real regulation is on real issues like guns and violence, not on MTX at all. Don't worry though, there are plenty of MTX in Game For Peace and the Chinese government welcome it. :D

10-Jun-2019 15:54:12

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
It wasn't voluntary. Far from it, and despite the regulations stating they have to show the chances of items gained from lootboxes, they still weaseled their way around it by simply stating <1% instead of the real value. They are so scared that players will stop buying if they show the real value that they had to resort to this cowardly method to hide it.

In case you are so out of touch of the real world facts, Tencent was trying very hard to push PUBG into China and had to do everything to meet the regulations, this includes everything, not just blood/gore, but also loot chances from lootboxes. Thus why it was revealed.

But since they ultimately failed to get approval, they had to resort to Game For Peace. And now that the odds are already revealed, there's 0 reason to hide them again since everyone already knows it.


What "weaseled their way around it" nonsense? Law doesn't tolerate nonsense if it is nonsense. If the laws think it is OK, it is useless for anybody not in the governments, you and me included to spit out nonsense regarding how your or me think the law means. :D:D:D

Obviously the Chinese governement is tackling violence and health issues due to political reasons. They are putting approval of many games on hold has nothing to do with the odds of their loot boxes at all. They even have established a formal regulation in May 2017. Trying to twist the nature of the stance of the Chinese government won't make you the Chinese government obviously. Uh oh! Too bad to you or silly rabbits, FIFA is still running in China. So are over 9000 x 9000 games with loot boxes including their home grown Chinese games like League of Angels. So what can silly rabbits do? Pretending to be Chinese government? Sorry that won't work because all the loot boxes games are still welcome in China. :D

11-Jun-2019 16:21:53

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Law doesn't tolerate nonsense, but the enforcement do. If law are always so perfect, then how come Joe from across the street never gets fined for jaywalking?

bUT iTs AGaInsT ThE lAw!


so?

And again, twisting my words, where have I ever said that the Chinese government are cracking down on lootboxes? I only said they've forced game devs to publish the drop rates. Which have been complied. Silly goose, I never said that FIFA or your so called 9000x9000 games can't be played in China.

Sometimes I don't even know what you're arguing about because you just keep changing the subject.


What? You don't know Enforcement is part of the LAW, that's why it is actually properly called LAW Enforcement? :D:D:D

15-Jun-2019 16:51:49

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino wrote:

"Law doesn't tolerate nonsense, but the enforcement do."


You never said enforcement was part of the law but in reailty it is.

Legislative, enforcement and judicial combined to make up the Law.

The fact that no law enforcement, let alone even if there was it would still have to go through the judicial system, law is not against loot boxes even in Belgium. :D:D:D

21-Jun-2019 18:52:56

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
I didn't claim to have made such a statement. What I am claiming is that I never stated the opposite statement. Don't try to twist my words.

My original point is that just because the law is in place doesn't mean that the enforcement of said law is going to be perfect. Tonnes of petty crimes are committed daily such as the jaywalking example I gave, or going 5km/h above the speed limit. But are these heinous criminals facing the consequences of their actions?


I don't care about your definition or I-don't-mean-this-or-that-game at all.

The entire legal system is not just based on somebody who defined what a specific law is. If law enforecement doesn't agree with the legislative people they won't act and that means the law doesn't act. And after law enforcement they still have to get the judicial system to agree with them.

Nobody can pound on the law enforcement and call them "not perfect" simply because they don't agree with their non-actions. They are not "not perect". They don't act simply because that part of the law says everything is LEGAL.

24-Jun-2019 18:04:02

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
I don't care about your definition or I-don't-mean-this-or-that-game at all.

The entire legal system is not just based on somebody who defined what a specific law is. If law enforecement doesn't agree with the legislative people they won't act and that means the law doesn't act. And after law enforcement they still have to get the judicial system to agree with them.

Nobody can pound on the law enforcement and call them "not perfect" simply because they don't agree with their non-actions. They are not "not perect". They don't act simply because that part of the law says everything is LEGAL.

I don't care about what your opinion is on the entire legal system.

In fact, it doesn't even really matter if the enforcement is perfect or not in this case because we're already seeing action being taken.

App Store and Google Play requiring games on their platform to display loot chances. EA, Blizzard, 2k withdrawing their lootbox from Belgium. EA forced to reveal their odds for their Ultimate team, but also not really by only saying <1%. P2W MTX bill getting bipartisan support. UK Parliament summoning game dev representatives for hearing.

Work is being done and progress is being made.


What is happening to Jagex and other over 9000 game developers in the world? Uh Oh! Nothing!

In fact, Jagex is not only selling TH keys, they are running TH promotions non-stop. They are even adding new MTX promotions like Tradable Vic and pay-for-bonus-xp-buff events outside TH. What can you do? Of course, you can only pay if you want to. What can the governments do? Uh Oh! Nothing and they don't want to do anything anyway.

Oh Wait! UK Parliament actually is doing something to games and social media... they decided to combat internet trolls, but not MTX. :)

https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/07/uk-government-social-media-troll-review/

27-Jun-2019 02:29:40 - Last edited on 27-Jun-2019 02:32:57 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
'When challenged on how much paying customers spend per year, Jagex refused to provide information, despite admitting that it knew the figures because of commercial concerns.'

:D:D:D


Nobody even have to accept UKParliament.tv's invitation, let alone answer any specific questions they may or may not have the answers available at the time.

DCMS also invited Zuckerberg to give evidence on data security too but he refused. So what?

Likewise, Jagex refuted the person who complained about spending too much money on MTX by asking him for properly proving his real world identity but that person refused too. Why didn't that person give evidence to Jagex and UK Parliament?

27-Jun-2019 18:03:15

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
What is happening to Jagex and other over 9000 game developers in the world? Uh Oh! Nothing!

Uh Oh! Someone forgot about our same conversation we've been having for the last few months!

Nothing has happened,
yet
.

Oh, just kidding! Jagex had already been summoned to the UK Parliament and they will soon review the hearings once they've spoken with all of the other offending game publishers.


Uh Oh! Why does Jagex need to do anything to their MTX other than making more TH promotions, adding Portable Vic and pay-to-get-more-bonus-xp events just because Easter Bunny and Santa Claus keep telling them "not yet". :D:D:D

27-Jun-2019 18:05:48

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
refusing to answer questions, even if you didnt have to, sure as hell is dodgy. especially in this case where they already answered one question but refused the next one only because it was so embarrassing information and would have given them a great case against predatory gambling jagex is running right now. i would argue the person that has maxed out 5000pounds for 12 straight months is speaking for predatory gambling in this comment section, and he is above me. :D:D:D


For the record, Jagex did not refuse to answer. They just said they didn't have that at hand at that time.

So do you also mean the person who complained about his lack of money to pay for the MTX to Jagex but refused to show up IRL as MANDATED BY the GDPR is sure as hell dodgy?

27-Jun-2019 19:00:16

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Uh Oh! Why does Jagex need to do anything to their MTX other than making more TH promotions, adding Portable Vic and pay-to-get-more-bonus-xp events just because Easter Bunny and Santa Claus keep telling them "not yet". :D:D:D

I can wait, no problem. As long as this conversation keeps going and more people become aware of the greedy practices.


Yes, people are aware and that's why they keep investing in Jagex.

May I have your attention please. The value of Jagex is now at US$ 530 million.

Player are buying into MTX. That's why their new Boss Plutos Sama is contributing more efforts into implementing an in-game purchase API for their games.


Buy spaghetti and get Purple Skin free! Coming soon to a Varpiano near you!

Next will be buy Happy Meal and get Umbral Chest and then, buy $50 worth of goods at Walmart and get Bonds.

What can the governments do? That's COMMERCE in a CAPITALISTIC FREE MARKET. :D

29-Jun-2019 22:30:52

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
If players are buying into MTX, then why has the MTX revenue decreased from last year?

MTX revenue is already floored by the players who want to buy membership with in-game currency, and somehow with the increased player count for OSRS, the MTX revenue dropped.

What can the government do when capitalism runs rampant? Let me give you a historical example of what the government did to the richest man in all history. John D. Rockerfeller, owner of the Standard Oil Company, had his company broken up into 34 smaller companies due to the company having "unreasonable" monopoly. If the US Supreme court can do that to the all time richest man's company that pretty much held the US president by his balls, then I think its safe to say that the government can do a lot to a much smaller and frailer company like Jagex or EA.

Keep letting capitalism run rampant, the longer it goes on for, the harder it'll fall.


What decreasing in MTX? RS3 specific MTX (i.e. TH and Runecoins) almost made no changes in sales. Only revenue of bond strangely fell from £20 mil to £1 mil. Most of the so-called gain membership revenue actually came from the "loss" in bond sales. Jagex just reported most of their bond revenue as subscription revenue instead of MTX revenue.

What does monopoly has to do with Jagex? Neither Jagex nor any game developer is considered monopoly anywhere in the world. What does this kind of anti-trust laws have to do with the video gaming industry?

30-Jun-2019 17:02:00

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
Dilbert2001 said:
What does monopoly has to do with Jagex? Neither Jagex nor any game developer is considered monopoly anywhere in the world. What does this kind of anti-trust laws have to do with the video gaming industry?

I don't see how hard is it to understand what I'm saying?

You:
What can the governments do?


Me: Showing you what can the government do against rampant capitalism.


What? You showed us nothing other than the US governments has an anti-trust law and they fight against monopoly but Runescape is not a monopoly at all. :D:D:D

01-Jul-2019 17:30:28

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14


Anything specific in this vid you want to discuss other than EA compared their RNG based mechanics to Kinder Surprises and the roles of the unparliament.tv Oprah style talk shows that we have gone over many times in several threads already?

02-Jul-2019 00:47:50

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
here is a video explaining how this whaleboy above me is being fooled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

lets go whaling on gambling addicts, lets leave the morality out for later.


The guy in the video just gave a lecture on monetizing f2p games. That's not against the law. He was not even talking about gambling or addictions at all.

A Jagex marketing person also gave a lecture on Jagex monetization last year. Nothing special.

These are just academic lectures. Nothing worthy to discuss especially when company representatives just talk about their methods of promotions in an academic manner.

02-Jul-2019 18:00:49

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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I Lack Heart said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tehbMHfyiPw

Oh sweet lordidoo


Unfortunately no law forbids any business to "hire" streamers with real money or in game items, and they don' even show the actual odds in streams.

Actually if there was law to prohibit video games from paying streamers, would that be even better for companies like Jagex that don't pay streamers, especially when they don't even advertise loot boxes in streams? :D:D:D

I don't think I need to keep reminding everybody Princess Alice is just a pixel girl, not some celebrities like Cristiano Ronaldo and not even some real streamers, and you know what makes Pricess Alice holier than Cristiano Ronaldo, Pikachu and the loot box opening stremaer?

The answer is she doesn't even show up in any online TH commercials. Jagex is ethically advertising the adventure and entertainment of their games, not their MTX products like TH or Bonds.

13-Aug-2019 14:57:34

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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UrekMazino said:
If there were laws, then there'd be no need for all these hearings. Silly rabbit, why would you make such redundant suggestions?


It is about ethics, not laws. As I mentioned, Jagex is ethically advertising the adventure and entertainment of their games unlike those who advertise their loot boxes like Big Fish Casino, with or without paying streamers or celebrities

As a matter of fact, while it is unethical although not unlawful to hire streamers to open loot boxes, it is equally unethical although not unlawful for some communities to hire streamers to bad mouth loot boxes. ;)

16-Aug-2019 18:50:44

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Ashlin107 said:
Dilbert2001 said:
UrekMazino said:
If there were laws, then there'd be no need for all these hearings. Silly rabbit, why would you make such redundant suggestions?


It is about ethics, not laws. As I mentioned, Jagex is ethically advertising the adventure and entertainment of their games unlike those who advertise their loot boxes like Big Fish Casino, with or without paying streamers or celebrities

As a matter of fact, while it is unethical although not unlawful to hire streamers to open loot boxes, it is equally unethical although not unlawful for some communities to hire streamers to bad mouth loot boxes. ;)


Right because less bad=good? Gotta love that logic. I guess by that logic mass shooters are justified because Hitler did worse.

But in all seriousness even if TH was as bad as other lootboxes out there or dare I say worse. I think we all know you'll still be fighting to the death just defend Jagex.


Don't forget this thread is about government regulations. How is it bad when:

(1) No government regulation prohibits any company to hire streamers. This goes either way to video game companies like Big Fish Casino or an unethical online magazine to hire streamers to say negative things about the video game industry.

(2) Jagex promotes their in game content as adventures, not loot boxes.

20-Aug-2019 17:12:29

Dilbert2001

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Yes, shaddy people paying streamers to do bad things against the video game industry like posting misleading information against MTX and such is unethical, although not unlawful.

The frigging irony... no worry though... The Self-regulating video game industry will get rid of those John and Jane Does 1-9000 soon. :)

22-Aug-2019 19:16:34

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Wonder why Margot James "reigned"


Very simple answer. She quit the government to protest against a proposed amendment that may derail Brexit. I don't see how Brexit has to do with loot boxes. :D

One thing you should know though. Nobody "reigned" or "reigns" the DCMS. It has many ministers. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 00:25:11

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Wonder why Margot James "reigned"


Very simple answer. She quit the government to protest against a proposed amendment that may derail Brexit. I don't see how Brexit has to do with loot boxes. :D

One thing you should know though. Nobody "reigned" or "reigns" the DCMS. It has many ministers. :D:D:D


yes Brexit

and of course the Russians

bye bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out


Brexit is going to happen. UK will be on their own with their own video game regulation - which is voluntary levies all the way.

There are plenty of ministers in the DCMS to tell you:

"Loot boxes are a means of purchasing items, not an additional financial reward. They can't be traded offline for money. We don't think it is true to say loot boxes are gambling"


"You need the evidence as a justification for taking action, particularly if you're talking about regulation"


:D

23-Aug-2019 16:55:08

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dr. David Zendle, from York St John University, said: "The relationship between loot box spending and gambling remains serious and potentially dangerous regardless of whether loot boxes are technically considered a form of gambling or not. We strongly recommend that authorities and regulatory bodies restrict access to loot boxes."


Shame that he is not the authorities at all. He is just one of the invitees and speak on an academic sense.

Shame that even gamer advocates like this one admitted even among gamers, the opinions are divided. Many think loot boxes is not gambling while most think it just feels like gambling but is not the really gambling like lottery:

One possibly unexpected inclusion on the morning panel was Online Performers Group CEO Omeed Dariani. His company represents content creators on a variety of platforms and has a client list ranging from Cohh Carnage and Angry Joe to T-Pain and Dragonforce. He explained that he was asked to represent "the gaming community" on the panel.
He explained that the community does not have a monolithic position on loot boxes
, but did offer a general takeaway from his discussions with gamers.

"
Of the feedback I got, there was a wide variety
, but over and over we had people coming back to this idea it
feels like
gambling. Even we can pretty clearly say loot boxes are not exactly the same thing as entering the lottery or sitting in front of a slot machine, they do have some of the same
feelings
that gambling does."


See? Even the gamer advocates and their hand-picked representative admitted their opinions are of wide variety. They knew loot boxes is not gambling but they insist it
feels like
gambling.

Sure, re-rolling a clue scroll feels like gambling too but so what? :D

23-Aug-2019 17:35:17

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Shame that is completely irrelevant and that the authorities claim to have done no research at all and think research is a good idea.

Shame it being gambling or not just decides which body regulates it, and that it is going to be regulated like it already has been decided in Belgium.


Shame you can't just cherry pick the lone speaker you like and call out all the other speakers as well as the gamer advocate the GAMER COMMUNITY chose as irrelevant.

Shame that even FTC and the Donald Trump can't do that, let alone a John or Jane Doe in a tiny forums of a mid-size UK game developer. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 17:49:41

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Actually I can as I am well informed regarding child protection and potential harm to children and vulnerable people in the UK. That is more than enough evidence. I think it is also very clear that further research isn't going to look good. So you can keep wasting money debating whether it is gambling or not but the result is no one gives a flying fuck. It is potentially harmful to everyone involved.


Do you know the "Dr. David Zendle, from York St John University" you quoted do not work in the UK? Do you know St John University is not in UK? Do you know the FTC of the USA has nothing to do with UK?

Do you know the FTC loot box open house discussion you quoted was aimed at educating and protecting the USA consumers, not anybody from UK, whether they are children or an anoymous free player and therefore not a consumer in the official forums of a UK company? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 18:11:30

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Actually I can as I am well informed regarding child protection and potential harm to children and vulnerable people in the UK. That is more than enough evidence. I think it is also very clear that further research isn't going to look good. So you can keep wasting money debating whether it is gambling or not but the result is no one gives a flying fuck. It is potentially harmful to everyone involved.


Do you know the "Dr. David Zendle, from York St John University" you quoted do not work in the UK? Do you know St John University is not in UK? Do you know the FTC of the USA has nothing to do with UK?

Do you know the FTC loot box open house discussion you quoted was aimed at educating and protecting the USA consumers, not anybody from UK, whether they are children or an anoymous free player and therefore not a consumer in the official forums of a UK company? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


do you have a point?


Ask this question to the person who brought up a USA FTC discussion about general education and protection of USA consumers and tried to relate it to UK children and gambling please. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 18:15:14

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Actually I can as I am well informed regarding child protection and potential harm to children and vulnerable people in the UK. That is more than enough evidence. I think it is also very clear that further research isn't going to look good. So you can keep wasting money debating whether it is gambling or not but the result is no one gives a flying fuck. It is potentially harmful to everyone involved.


Do you know the "Dr. David Zendle, from York St John University" you quoted do not work in the UK? Do you know St John University is not in UK? Do you know the FTC of the USA has nothing to do with UK?

Do you know the FTC loot box open house discussion you quoted was aimed at educating and protecting the USA consumers, not anybody from UK, whether they are children or an anoymous free player and therefore not a consumer in the official forums of a UK company? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


do you have a point?


Ask this question to the person who brought up a USA FTC discussion about general education and protection of USA consumers and tried to relate it to UK children and gambling please. :D:D:D


can you show me the research contradicting that


We are talking laws and regulations, not researches. Don't try to change the topics numerous times please. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 18:36:09

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
There has been relatively widespread reporting. The written evidence the Gambling Commission has sent in to the Committee as well makes clear the existence of the secondary market, where people are trading for cash items that have been acquired through in-game purchases. The gaming companies have a policy saying they do not want people to do this, but it does not mean to say they are effective at stopping them doing it. Well, they will do it when they catch them, but it does not mean to say that they can stop this happening. But the in-game purchases themselves I think have value, so I would say they have money’s worth because people are spending money to acquire these players, then in addition to that, they can also then sell them. There are also examples of people selling other forms of in-game purchases as well and people making very large amounts of money for rare skins for characters in different games and tools and weapons and so on.


On Page 40, Post 8, I already clearly quoted UK Parliament's responses:

There are plenty of ministers in the DCMS to tell you:

"Loot boxes are a means of purchasing items, not an additional financial reward. They can't be traded offline for money. We don't think it is true to say loot boxes are gambling"

"You need the evidence as a justification for taking action, particularly if you're talking about regulation""


That's what the UK LAW said. No need and utterly useless to go in circle when they said clearly loot boxes is not gambling. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 18:43:04

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
xox Lola xox said:
There has been relatively widespread reporting. The written evidence the Gambling Commission has sent in to the Committee as well makes clear the existence of the secondary market, where people are trading for cash items that have been acquired through in-game purchases. The gaming companies have a policy saying they do not want people to do this, but it does not mean to say they are effective at stopping them doing it. Well, they will do it when they catch them, but it does not mean to say that they can stop this happening. But the in-game purchases themselves I think have value, so I would say they have money’s worth because people are spending money to acquire these players, then in addition to that, they can also then sell them. There are also examples of people selling other forms of in-game purchases as well and people making very large amounts of money for rare skins for characters in different games and tools and weapons and so on.


That was what the people who make the law said
:D:D:D:D:D


First, this is not law. Second, it is about real world trading and skin gambling, not loot boxes at all. Get your facts strict first. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 18:53:48

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
75 Key Package (+ 10 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

200 Key Package (+ 20 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

450 Key Package (+ 50 Medium Smouldering Lamps)

what's this btw

slightly less speculation here

wonder why


Please talk about laws and regulation if you want to continue to discuss on topic in this thread. No laws say anything about whatever promotion you quoted, especially you just mentioned offsite skin gambling and now suddenly changed the topic to Jagex's current promotion, again without any way for players to cash out for real money.

This is my last response to your ever changing off topic comments. Thanks.

23-Aug-2019 18:57:15

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
(1/3) In my humble opinion...


Sorry, the real world doesn't make laws in your or my humble opinions.

The fact is no law says TH is gambling. That's why Jagex is happily providing the entertainment to the general consumers who love to buy their in-game purchases.

In my humble opinion, there should be a cap at capital gain tax just like there is a limit for claiming capital loss too. However, I know both the law and the facts don't side with me. When the facts and the law are all against me... I should smartly know what I can do. :)

23-Aug-2019 21:03:43

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
- I literally quoted two different laws that outline TH as gambling.

But let's just ignore that, right?

- 'In my humble opinion', clearly, did not relate to any law, I am sad you failed to see that.

- Limits for claiming capital loss depends on the country, as a matter of actual fact, in some bilateral agreements a company could even claim a reduction for the capital loss TWICE.


What law from what countries? Perhaps somebody can help you find out where to report Jagex for gambling to their governments?

23-Aug-2019 21:16:41

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Alright, since you clearly did not even read my entire text.

The law from these countries:

1- 7 MEI 1999. - [Wet op de kansspelen, de weddenschappen, de kansspelinrichtingen en de bescherming van de spelers] <W 2010-01-10/12, art. 2, 008; Inwerkingtreding : 01-01-2011>

2- Gambling Act of 2005 (UK)


Did you read all the posts in this thread? Belgium never said TH is gambling. They only called out a few companies but not Jagex. UK also explicitly said loot boxes is not gambling at all.

Why didn't anybody report Jagex to the Belgium or Uk governments? Or didn't they actually have done it or failed miserably? :D

23-Aug-2019 21:25:02

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Torgi Nudho said:
Did you read all the posts in this thread?


I do not have to read any of them, the fact is written law, which you can actually verify yourself, prevails over opinions.


Again, real world governments take real world actions. If you can't accept what real world UK goverment said loot boxes is not gambling it is up to you. If you can't accept the Belgium BGC is being bombarded by evidence of their leaking of information behind the comitte's back as well as being put in the doghouse by the other EU commisions, so be it.

The fact remains TH is not gambling and no real world governments say it is. If you don't agree, you can do what the FTC said: go file a complaint. :)

23-Aug-2019 21:49:46

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
I've literally shown you that Belgium is and has taking real actions, I've proven it to you. Why do you think players can no longer loot/ open boxes in CSGO in Belgium?

I don't know what else I can do here, bud...


You have not given me any proof whatsoever to substantiate any of your claims... I have done nothing but.

+ It will be up to the High Court (UK) to decide whichever it will be, since the UK is just contradicting themselves at this point.


It is totally nonsense to cry "Hugh Court" when nobody brings up anything at all. As I mentioned many times already, why don't anybody call the governments if they think Jagex or anybody else break the law? Simple. Because they did and failed. Like this one:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

Loot box systems are gambling in my view," Griffiths says. Griffiths penned an academic paper that explores whether RuneScape's Squeal of Fortune and Treasure Hunter features should be considered gambling.

So why hasn't any authority called Jagex - or any other video game publisher or developer whose game includes loot boxes - out for encouraging gambling? Why hasn't a regulatory body placed an appropriate age-rating on these games?

Eurogamer asked the Gambling Commission whether it was looking into the issue of gambling and loot boxes in video games. We were told "esports and digital currencies have been a significant focus for us in recent years", with a spokesperson directing us towards a position paper published in March titled "Virtual currencies, esports and social casino gaming" - specifically, paragraphs 3.17, 3.18 and 3.20.


For those who are naive, people have tried hard against Jagex and TH, but failed miserably. Somebody claimed to be a student in Australia asked the Aussie Government to investigate Jagex too but also failed miserably. :D

23-Aug-2019 22:06:56 - Last edited on 23-Aug-2019 22:08:00 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
- If no one is mentioning it, why does the UK government express their own thoughts on the matter, exactly? Seems odd to just start talking as a governmental institution about something no one is talking about, doesn't it?

- I'm not from the UK so I am not sure, but if a law is contradicting reality, then that law needs to be changed, which needs to be revisited by a certain governmental institutions, I assumed this was the High Court in this case.


- I'll trust research published by the chairman of a Gambling Commission over a 'video game journalist'


Why don't you go ask the governments yourself like that UK student and the other Aussie student who posted in Reddit? Shrug! We know the results already. The governments have clearly told us the results. :D

23-Aug-2019 22:19:24

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Time they finish regulating they will wish it was gambling.


Nobody is "regulating" anything on the internet. Obviosly, they will never finish anything they don't even start... :D

Like in the UK, they tried to deal with internet toxicity and trolling. However, nobody is willing to pay the bill. All they can do almost 10 years later is to release a green paper to call for voluntary levies with the video game companies paying for their own expenses. What "regulation"? No. I guess what they talked to the true power with >9000 IQ, it got deleted. :D:D:D

23-Aug-2019 22:49:47

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
You're claiming 'governments', yet I've only seen the UK state the same you're claiming :P

(which is contradictory to its own laws, so I'm positive something has to change over the pond)

- Other governments (which actually have publicly stated so), like the US, are actually looking into refreshing/updating their regulations when it comes to 'online' gambling. Which they should, because most laws were written decades ago in a style out of this age, so it seems only logical that new regulations will come, perhaps not as extensive as many think it will be. But it does seem that Belgium is setting a tone/trend for other countries (which I stated above) to follow, perhaps not as severe.


Then again, I remember a family member telling me back in their day they did not have to take a driver's exam in order to get their license, but nowadays countries (not all of them) have two exams (theory+practice).

Then there's the example of article 13, but that's for another time.


Who's looking? There are millions bills submitted to the Congress and >9000 each year. Those are all "regulations"?

No law has any problems with TH. If you don't think so, please tell us who said Jagex can't have TH and why is it still here?

23-Aug-2019 23:06:33

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Personal note: This might be offtopic, but it seems that you like to ridicule students, yet I remember some great revolutions which were started by a handful of students from my history classes ('68).


Please don't assume. Asking for clarification is better than jumping to conclusions. I applaud those students that are brave enough to ask a question :)


This is really getting off topic and I don't ridicule students at all. I just pointed out two students asked academic questions and made absolutely no comments about those students. There is nothing to ridicule them. Please use FH if you have any problem and we will see who is ridiculating who. Thanks. :)

23-Aug-2019 23:10:02

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
- Your first argument/question is just weird, and makes no sense in my opinion, so I'll just ignore that one (and it's probably not millions, that would imply governments actually have work to do).


- Your opinion is that "no law has problems with TH": of course not, laws do not have problems, they do not feel, so of course no law has any personal issues with TH.


These are not my argument/question and opinions. They are FACTS.

People have tried, not that they didn't, but the LAWS, the real world LAWS are all on Jagex's side. Otherwise, why is TH is still runing? :D

23-Aug-2019 23:18:28

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
I don't know, I feel like you're jumping the gun on the entire regulatory system,

It feels as if you're observing one momentary laps of events, as a picture:

- No regulations: no laws: It's not gambling, because one single country said they don't review it as gambling! They said so!

Sure, you can't change an entire legal system in a day, probably not even years, it takes time. I mean a lot of things used to be legal and aren't legal anymore a few years later :P


Mind me asking, since I like discussing this with you, what's your actual view of the system, do you feel it TH should be viewed as a possible gambling addiction or not? (+


One country? Numerous people have tried almost all the major countries but failed miserably.

USA, UK, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, France, New Zealand as well as 15 other EU countries all concluded Skin Gambling is the blur line but not loot boxes. Same thing in Australia especially they explicitly said they would only go after the big casinos even in the case of skin gambling.

China already cleared loot boxes. They have regulations, no problem at all. All the major Asian countries have long accepted Gacha and loot boxes. In fact, gambling is illegal in China and Korea and such countries. The fact they accept loot boxes means they are absolutely not gambling.

Facts speak louder than thunder, especially when the lone cricket in Belgium has been silenced since 16 months ago. :D

23-Aug-2019 23:30:55

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Time they finish regulating they will wish it was gambling.


Nobody is "regulating" anything on the internet. Obviosly, they will never finish anything they don't even start... :D

Like in the UK, they tried to deal with internet toxicity and trolling. However, nobody is willing to pay the bill. All they can do almost 10 years later is to release a green paper to call for voluntary levies with the video game companies paying for their own expenses. What "regulation"? No. I guess what they talked to the true power with >9000 IQ, it got deleted. :D:D:D


Oh they've started. And yeah Jagex is paying.


Jagex voluntarily joined the Fair Play Alliance. It is not even limited to UK. But we can see the how the online "regulations" work there... which is non-existent. :D

23-Aug-2019 23:32:55

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
@ Bilbert, can you provide me any proof/public statements of that, so I can read up on it?

- Didn't you state earlier that no one's regulating anything, yet now you're stating China is :O

- Yet again, yelling 'facts' doesn't change your opinion into a fact, especially without any solid evidence. For the lone cricket in Belgium: I am pretty sure they succeeded, since you cannot open any loot boxes anymore, so how has that been a failure?


The fact is China has finished their regulation more than 2 years ago. They are not "regulating" anything.

Facts from other countries like the meeting of the 16 EU countries have already been discussed in this thread as well as many others. No point to go in circle if you don't refuse to read through them first.

More importantly to Jagex. People have tried and miserably failed against TH. Too bad. Just accept the Smouldering Lamps and such then. :)

23-Aug-2019 23:40:45

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Can you provide any proof of any statements you're making?


Told you already just read through all the posts in this thread. For instance, starting from page 6, there are comments and the links to the meeting of the 16 EU countries regarding online gambling, and they came out the statements the blur line is offsite gambling aka skin gambling.

I am not going in circle if you refuse to read the posts first when you come to a thread. I don't think keep going in circle is what this forum is for. Thanks.

23-Aug-2019 23:53:46

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
You do know that during that meeting of the Gambling Regulators European Forum, 15 European regulators and the Washington State Gambling Commission signed a joint statement expressing concerns over loot boxes, skin betting and other similar practices, right? (2018)


And guess which country signed it as well...

"Neil McArthur, Chief Executive Officer,
UK Gambling Commission"


(source: Declaration of gambling regulators on their concerns related to the blurring of lines between gambling and gaming 17 September 2018)


Read my comment above again. They concluded the meeting a long time ago and made the comment through their lead - UK already.

23-Aug-2019 23:55:15

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Torgi Nudho said:
You do know that during that meeting of the Gambling Regulators European Forum, 15 European regulators and the Washington State Gambling Commission signed a joint statement expressing concerns over loot boxes, skin betting and other similar practices, right? (2018)


And guess which country signed it as well...

"Neil McArthur, Chief Executive Officer,
UK Gambling Commission"


(source: Declaration of gambling regulators on their concerns related to the blurring of lines between gambling and gaming 17 September 2018)


They are very concerned about the harm loot boxes are causing I agree.


LOL. Their lead UK already told us loot boxes is not gambling. The harm? If you don't like it don't buy it. Video games are harmful according to WHO's ICD:11, with or without loot boxes anyway.

23-Aug-2019 23:58:25 - Last edited on 23-Aug-2019 23:58:53 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
'They concluded their statement a long time ago', can I have any proof of that, a date perhaps?

'long time ago' implies quite a few years, they signed it not even one year ago, it would seemed quite unusual for a country to change it's gambling policies within a year, including the numerous years of prior research


Don't try to argue the meaning of words. We have the links in the threads. You can check the dates.

They never have another meeting afterward after Ireland quit the meeting first and then UK delivered the final verdict.

24-Aug-2019 00:07:55

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
I found your date: "Facts speak louder than thunder, especially when the lone cricket in Belgium has been silenced since 16 months ago. :D"

16 months? Yet the UK signed it 11 months ago....?


Read the posts again. Belgium was in the dog house. They did not attend the EU meeting. :D:D:D

24-Aug-2019 00:11:45

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Which EU meeting exactly? You've only given me '16' months to work with,

and no other proof besides your feels... and the words of a gaming journalist


You should know which meeting when you clearly knew:

"Yet the UK signed it 11 months ago."


In fact, that's the only meeting the 16 EU countries came together to talk about online gambling. You can not have mistaken it with another one since it did not exist. :D

24-Aug-2019 00:15:38

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
"16 EU countries"? I assume you meant the 15 EU gambling regulators and Washington?

So you're talking about GREF (gaming regulators european forum), which literally has multiple meetings every year?


- So it was 11 months ago, not 16 months.
- The UK signed it, they did not vote against it.


You don't know we are talking about the online gambling regulation in video game meeting, i.e. loot boxes and skin gambling which is the only one on topic? If you don't, now you should know.

They only held one such meeting but the vocal Belgium was interestingly not there. And you know their stance already if you read the exit comments delivered by UK already. Loot boxes is not gambling. The problem is real money being cashed out of the game, i.e., 3rd party or skin gambling.

And there was no signing because there was no regulation. In fact, they explicitly said the meeting had no legal implication even before it started.

24-Aug-2019 00:30:44 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 00:32:21 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Lola,

I am pretty sure the underlying problem is money laundering and gambling addictions, I can find a source for this if you'd like.


Yes. Money being cashed out of the game for illegal purposes not limited to gambling is their main concern. Money laundering, tax evasion etc are also what they are targeting.

Nobody really care about loot box gambling in the game, unless the game developers/publishers find a way to take real world profits out of it like Big Fish Casino or the Real Money Player Trading system in Steam.

TH is absolutely fine. However, gold farmer sell gold to buy a noxious bow and gamble it on a 3rd party site is gambling although no TH is involved in the process whatsoever.

24-Aug-2019 00:44:14

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
That's right, they absolutely do not care about loot box gambling, they have made it very clear that they care about loot box potential harm and even worse loot box harm on games likely to be accessed by children and that they agree totally with Belgium.


That's not true. The couple of Belgium governments officials just did something unethical, if not unlawful and got exposed by workers from their own camp. All the countries in the rest of the world do not side with Belgium at all. They care nothing about gambling and children, otherwise many Pokeman trading card games would be banned too.

24-Aug-2019 00:55:04

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Torgi Nudho said:
Lola,

I am pretty sure the underlying problem is money laundering and gambling addictions, I can find a source for this if you'd like.


Yes. Money being cashed out of the game for illegal purposes not limited to gambling is their main concern. Money laundering, tax evasion etc are also what they are targeting.

Nobody really care about loot box gambling in the game, unless the game developers/publishers find a way to take real world profits out of it like Big Fish Casino or the Real Money Player Trading system in Steam.

TH is absolutely fine. However, gold farmer sell gold to buy a noxious bow and gamble it on a 3rd party site is gambling although no TH is involved in the process whatsoever.



This is the first thing I would be willing to agree with you on, that is that underlying problems have made it possible for certain discussions to take place internationally. Yet, TH remains in legal terms a form of gambling, which on its own does not have to be a bad thing at all.

It is just that some categories of financial transactions require certain regulations. It's the exact same story with transfer pricing; governments regulate how intra-group transactions are calculated, companies need to hand in a master and local file to the corresponding governments to make sure there are no profits being shifted to lower taxed areas/countries.*

* There were literally barely any transfer pricing rules or guidelines in Europe 10 years ago. Yet, if you look at it now, companies have been swamped with guidelines and rules to follow.


Regardless you agree or disagree with me, or with the world's governments. Their stance is clear. Almost nobody cares about loot boxes. The real blur line of gambling is real world trading and skin betting.

No new regulation will be made because underground casinos are already illegal.

24-Aug-2019 00:57:16 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 00:57:48 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
I still disagree with you on the new regulation part, since they literally all signed documents in order to make international regulations, attend multiple meetings every year about online gambling, etc. So yes, I disagree with you, because you have not stated any facts/proof.


And I am agreeing with the "world's goverments", since they actually all publicly stated to regulate online gambling, in contradiction to what you're stating


They signed NO REGULATIONS AT ALL. As I mentioned, read through the comments. They said the meeting had no legal implications. Please show what documents and what regulations otherwise. Even Chris Lee et al could show us his failed bills. Where the holy land are your invisible documents and regulations?

24-Aug-2019 01:11:28 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 01:20:04 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:

What did these so called Belgian govenmental officals do exactly? I haven't heard of this yet, link me something, please.


You can already play many things more than just rock-paper-scissors in GTA's Diamond Casino. No problems there whatsoever.

Read this article for BGC's "crime":

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-05-28-games-industry-being-dragged-through-the-mud-by-belgian-loot-box-ruling

It's also about taxation. It's about gambling licenses. It's about money. You will have to pay the gambling commission to be able to continue to do paid loot boxes. I'm not talking about a moral dilemma here.

The BGC, which is a Belgian government cross-party initiative, meets every month to discuss pressing issues around gambling. According to Verbruggen, the civil servants of the BGC leaked the report to the press without consulting the commission's elected representatives. Additionally, he said the BGC didn't consult with stakeholders in the games industry at any point while compiling the report.

"We found it really disturbing that they closed the door in front of us," said Verbruggen. "When the report came out, we talked to the BGC and we said, as an industry we have to be responsible and have to maybe do more to help parents with these issues and protect minors, and we proposed a lot of things. They just said 'no, we're going ahead with prosecution anyway'."

In an email to GamesIndustry.biz, BGC director Peter Naessens did not directly deny the allegation that the report was leaked to the press, saying instead that he had not heard such a complaint, and that members had access to the final report before meeting.

Under the current definition, Verbruggen noted that even a school raffle is technically illegal, as are trading card games such as Pokémon. However, there are certain exemptions under Belgian law.

24-Aug-2019 01:17:41

Dilbert2001

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“There are other examples of things that look and feel like gambling that legislation tells you are not – [such as] some prize competitions but because they have free play or free entry they are not gambling… but they are a lot like a lottery,” McArthur said.


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49074003

Not just Duel Arena, but Dead Man Mode too, had to be ruled gambling before could even be considered "gambling". :D

24-Aug-2019 03:42:01

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
“There are other examples of things that look and feel like gambling that legislation tells you are not – [such as] some prize competitions but because they have free play or free entry they are not gambling… but they are a lot like a lottery,” McArthur said.


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49074003

Not just Duel Arena, but Dead Man Mode too, had to be ruled gambling before could even be considered "gambling". :D


regardless of loot boxes being technically gambling or not, they are to be regulated.


On page 42, Post 2, we have already gone through this:

"On Page 40, Post 8, I already clearly quoted UK Parliament's responses:

There are plenty of ministers in the DCMS to tell you:

"Loot boxes are a means of purchasing items, not an additional financial reward. They can't be traded offline for money. We don't think it is true to say loot boxes are gambling"

"You need the evidence as a justification for taking action, particularly if you're talking about regulation""

That's what the UK LAW said. No need and utterly useless to go in circle when they said clearly loot boxes is not gambling. :D:D:D"


No point to go in circle and then in circle within circel again. UK already clearly said there was no evidence for them to even do a thing. My last response to this because the next one will be the same repetitive arguments without anything constructive to add to their thread. Thank you for your cooperation. :)

24-Aug-2019 18:45:35

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Actually they said Jagex will have a duty of care which makes them liable and that loot boxes are harmful and that they will be regulated by a new body possibly something like Ofcom during the transition period and if they don't do as they are told they will be fined and prosecuted.


Please provide source.

24-Aug-2019 19:46:27

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Actually they said Jagex will have a duty of care which makes them liable and that loot boxes are harmful and that they will be regulated by a new body possibly something like Ofcom during the transition period and if they don't do as they are told they will be fined and prosecuted.


Please provide source.


you first

please provide the source that says Jagex are allowed to harm our people and we will pay to fix them.


That's totally nonsense. Jagex is not harming anybody. Please show how Jagex is harming anybody and I will help to make Jagex know it in the real world.

24-Aug-2019 19:52:23

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
. Legislators
suggested
game makers
might
have a "duty of care" to prevent the most compulsive uses of their products, based on their reading of an Online Harms White Paper published by the UK government in April.


Good thing from your quote it was "suggested" based on a research, and you even use the word "might".

It is clearly not law and there is not even anything remotely suggested Jagex has caused any harm at all. :D

24-Aug-2019 20:08:55

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
. Legislators
suggested
game makers
might
have a "duty of care" to prevent the most compulsive uses of their products, based on their reading of an Online Harms White Paper published by the UK government in April.


Good thing from your quote it was "suggested" based on a research, and you even use the word "might".

It is clearly not law and there is not even anything remotely suggested Jagex has caused any harm at all. :D


How much research do you think someone needs to do on treasure hunter lmfaoooooo. It isn't rocket science sweetie. But you just keep going around and around in your little circle, hope they aren't paying those lawyers too much.


One person's opinions based on a research doesn't matter regardless how he conducted it. As DCMS clearly stated, to talk about regulations, there must be JUSTIFICATIONS. There is nothing at all. Nobody is even going to Court. No regulations. No real world cases. And Jagex is not even involved.

If you think Jagex broke any laws you can take them to Court, but don't forget even the person who wrote the research paper knew
"Whether loot boxes fulfil the technical requirements to be classified as gambling is a legal matter that will vary from territory to territory and from country to country"
.

Guess what? No country said a thing about Jagex and TH is gambling. :D

24-Aug-2019 20:23:18

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
I think you better have another look at the word potential babycakes.

I'm done here you're just boring me.

I am very much enjoying the transition between th and Jagex selling xp straight like they do gold though.


Your "potential" quoted from a research paper written in November 2018 had been completely rebutted by DCMS of the UK Parliament through one of their Ministers Margot James in July 2019 already. That's 100% fact. :D

24-Aug-2019 20:32:32

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
I think you better have another look at the word potential babycakes.

I'm done here you're just boring me.

I am very much enjoying the transition between th and Jagex selling xp straight like they do gold though.


Your "potential" quoted from a research paper written in November 2018 had been completely rebutted by DCMS of the UK Parliament through one of their Ministers Margot James in July 2019 already. That's 100% fact. :D


you might want to watch it again... with your ears open this time.


No need to watch or hear whoever's research comments in 2018 being totally destroyed by the "no justification" comment of the REAL UK Parliament, DCMS Minsters in July 2019, that's last month. :D

24-Aug-2019 20:47:07

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
sorry I forget not everyone comprehends lawyer speak.


Sure Jagex have lawyers. They even told the UK Parliament they made contacts with the Authorities for about 200 hours a years.

Of course, they know laws well. That's why everything is fine with not just TH, but GDPR and even the US Civil Rights to their end. :D

24-Aug-2019 21:00:15

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
sorry I forget not everyone comprehends lawyer speak.


Sure Jagex have lawyers. They even told the UK Parliament they made contacts with the Authorities for about 200 hours a years.

Of course, they know laws well. That's why everything is fine with not just TH, but GDPR and even the US Civil Rights to their end. :D


Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
guess who I spend 1558 hours a year with


Santa Claus? The Easter bunny? Jed? Josh Pillault?

I don't care at all TBH, especially if it has nothing to do with this thread. :D


Source?


Unless you can tell us what does it have to do with this thread, this is where we get the source:

Quick find code: 254-255-598-66019305

24-Aug-2019 21:20:55

Dilbert2001

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TY CM Shaddie. And I am sure this wonderful thing we call Runescape has capable Jmods and World Guardians to protect its integrity and make it a clear cut head-and-shoulder standout against abusive games pretending to be ethical entertainment and surprises such as TH and Clue Scrolls.


"The Committee has received evidence indicating that certain design features of MMORPGs can make them particularly hard for gamers to retain control over their levels of gaming or spending. MPs will ask Jagex about the monetisation strategies used in their free-to-play games; any interventions they deploy to help people retain control over playing or spending on online games; and the collection of data about players in games."


Rest assured, the UK Parliament and DCMS have made it clear last month that loot box and therefore TH is not gambling. However, they have said no words on whether Bonds among other features can make them particularly hard for gamers to retain control over their levels of gaming or spending. Personally I think Bond is quite ethical too and hopefully one day the DCMS can gives us more color on whether Bond has a design problem. :)

24-Aug-2019 22:35:12

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Bilbert;

I will try to keep this on-topic (the topic is not about a specific someone's behavior). That said, if I do not like the way someone is replying/reacting to my input, I simply will not acknowledge or quote for a reply.

I hope we can keep this going in a way that is not targeting fellow players of this wonderful thing we call Runescape :)


I don't know if you are replying to me or not as you wrote Bilbert, but I assumed so since your also did that in other posts quoting or replying mine.

Of course, you don't have to reply/react to anybody's posts, not just mine. You have the rights to remain silent, always, if you don't want to make any noise. :)

And don't worry though. I never expect, let alone demand anybody to reply to any of my posts.

24-Aug-2019 22:46:03 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 23:02:50 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/immersive-technologies/



https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/99d331bc-8aa1-4136-99d4-f19d28eebf20

Witnesses: Margot James MP, Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-white-paper

The Online Harms White Paper sets out the government’s plans for a world-leading package of measures to keep UK users safe online.
This consultation ran from
8 April 2019 to 11:59pm on 1 July 2019


Executive summary
"1. The government wants the UK to be the safest place in the world to go online, and the best place to start and grow a digital business. Given the prevalence of illegal and harmful content online, and the level of public concern about online harms, not just in the UK but worldwide, we believe that the digital economy urgently needs a new regulatory framework to improve our citizens’ safety online. This will rebuild public confidence and set clear expectations of companies, allowing our citizens to enjoy more safely the benefits that online services offer."


DCMS is exactly right, all UK game developers should join the Fair Play Alliance just like Jagex to pulverize online trolls and bullies.

Too bad the entire paper doesn't say anything about loot boxes at all. Of course, they already said loot boxes are legal in July 2, 2019, but it doesn't hurt for the video game industry to self-regulate and form a Fair Trade Alliance to design more fun and surprise mechanics like TH. :)

24-Aug-2019 23:00:53 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 23:24:30 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Wait, didn't she resign?


What? She? The Online Harm White Paper was from The Rt Hon Sajid Javid and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright, both is a "he". :D

Published 8 April 2019
Last updated 26 June 2019 — see all updates
From:
Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, Home Office, The Rt Hon Sajid Javid MP, and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright MP

24-Aug-2019 23:32:13 - Last edited on 24-Aug-2019 23:32:40 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Wait, didn't she resign?


What? She? The Online Harm White Paper was from The Rt Hon Sajid Javid and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright, both is a "he". :D

Published 8 April 2019
Last updated 26 June 2019 — see all updates
From:
Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, Home Office, The Rt Hon Sajid Javid MP, and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright MP


The online harm white paper

how are sajid and Jeremy doing looooooool?

Didn't margot resign? wonder why.


We have already gone over Margot James on page 40 of this thread. She quit the government to protest an anti-Brexit agena, and she was just one of the many ministers of DCMS. Please don't keep going in circle.

The 100% fact is the Online Harm White Paper clearly shows the UK Parliaments has nothing against loot boxes all along. They propose to become the world's very first regulation makers to combat online trolling and disinformation. Good to see the days of John and Jane Does 1-9000 and trolls spreading false information are numbered.

The entire document is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-white-paper/online-harms-white-paper

24-Aug-2019 23:58:08 - Last edited on 25-Aug-2019 00:01:27 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Wait, didn't she resign?


What? She? The Online Harm White Paper was from The Rt Hon Sajid Javid and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright, both is a "he". :D

Published 8 April 2019
Last updated 26 June 2019 — see all updates
From:
Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport, Home Office, The Rt Hon Sajid Javid MP, and The Rt Hon Jeremy Wright MP


The online harm white paper

how are sajid and Jeremy doing looooooool?

Didn't margot resign? wonder why.


We have already gone over Margot James on page 40 of this thread. She quit the government to protest an anti-Brexit agena, and she was just one of the many ministers of DCMS. Please don't keep going in circle.

The 100% fact is the Online Harm White Paper clearly shows the UK Parliaments has nothing against loot boxes all along. They propose to become the world's very first regulation makers to combat online trolling and disinformation.


Great news for all of us then.

Anyone else around here resigned or you know, lost their jobs lately?

What are Jeremy's thoughts on brexit anyway


Many trolls, phishers and disinformation spreeders will lose thier jobs. I am sure about it. Pleasee don't go off topic with Jermey and Brexit and save us players and Fmods some time.

25-Aug-2019 00:05:48

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Jeremy is very much on topic, hes authored the online harms paper hasn't he which the enquiry asked margot about whether it will be ready for the queen's speech.

Wonder what the royal family think about Brexit and online games


This thread is not about brexit whatsoever. Do we need to ask a Fmod?

25-Aug-2019 00:18:47

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
I Lack Heart said:
Due to several countries investigation of lootboxes, which treasure hunter is, the pay to win era of runescape might be closing to its end. You can tell Jagex have been cashing in the gambling addicts for the past year, knowing that it is too good to be true, so instead of once a month promotion TH turned into 2 promotions a week to ensure there is something you have to spend your money on or you will miss out.

Australia has investigated that loot boxes are psychological gambling, gateway to problem gambling and this is why it is so profitable for gaming companies. It is like selling drugs as postal service to rehab center patients, you dont see your customer but the insane amounts of money is flowing in works as a motivator, out of sight, out of mind.


Can you show me what this thread has to do with internet trolls, or do we need a jmod? Where is Mod Lee?


This thread is not about internet trolls but the White Paper is. That's what I am showing you. The Online Harm White Paper has nothing against loot boxes or TH. So there is no values to discuss the Online Harm White Paper you brought up in this thread.

25-Aug-2019 00:34:57

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
I Lack Heart said:
Due to several countries investigation of lootboxes, which treasure hunter is, the pay to win era of runescape might be closing to its end. You can tell Jagex have been cashing in the gambling addicts for the past year, knowing that it is too good to be true, so instead of once a month promotion TH turned into 2 promotions a week to ensure there is something you have to spend your money on or you will miss out.

Australia has investigated that loot boxes are psychological gambling, gateway to problem gambling and this is why it is so profitable for gaming companies. It is like selling drugs as postal service to rehab center patients, you dont see your customer but the insane amounts of money is flowing in works as a motivator, out of sight, out of mind.


Can you show me what this thread has to do with internet trolls, or do we need a jmod? Where is Mod Lee?


This thread is not about internet trolls but the White Paper is. That's what I am showing you. The Online Harm White Paper has nothing against loot boxes or TH. So there is no values to discuss the Online Harm White Paper you brought up in this thread.


Is that disinformation there dilbert, considering I have read the entire thing.


Show where it says loot boxes then.

25-Aug-2019 00:43:12

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
I Lack Heart said:
Due to several countries investigation of lootboxes, which treasure hunter is, the pay to win era of runescape might be closing to its end. You can tell Jagex have been cashing in the gambling addicts for the past year, knowing that it is too good to be true, so instead of once a month promotion TH turned into 2 promotions a week to ensure there is something you have to spend your money on or you will miss out.

Australia has investigated that loot boxes are psychological gambling, gateway to problem gambling and this is why it is so profitable for gaming companies. It is like selling drugs as postal service to rehab center patients, you dont see your customer but the insane amounts of money is flowing in works as a motivator, out of sight, out of mind.


Can you show me what this thread has to do with internet trolls, or do we need a jmod? Where is Mod Lee?


This thread is not about internet trolls but the White Paper is. That's what I am showing you. The Online Harm White Paper has nothing against loot boxes or TH. So there is no values to discuss the Online Harm White Paper you brought up in this thread.


Is that disinformation there dilbert, considering I have read the entire thing.


Show where it says loot boxes then.


Are you really trying to convince US that the online harms white paper is about trolls and that is related to this thread in some way? Or are you disinforming us?


Please show where the White Paper has anything against loot boxes for this discussion.

25-Aug-2019 00:46:55

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
xox Lola xox said:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/immersive-technologies/



https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/99d331bc-8aa1-4136-99d4-f19d28eebf20

Witnesses: Margot James MP, Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-white-paper

The Online Harms White Paper sets out the government’s plans for a world-leading package of measures to keep UK users safe online.
This consultation ran from
8 April 2019 to 11:59pm on 1 July 2019


I already did remember.

you have yet to provide a single source for your claim.

if you wish to go off topic and discuss the online harms paper in relation to other areas please feel free to make another thread. I expect one of the community has already made one though so you better search first.


What's the loot box reference? Totally nonsense. You have provided nothing for us to discuss on this thread at all.

25-Aug-2019 00:52:21

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
xox Lola xox said:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/immersive-technologies/



https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/99d331bc-8aa1-4136-99d4-f19d28eebf20

Witnesses: Margot James MP, Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries


https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-white-paper

The Online Harms White Paper sets out the government’s plans for a world-leading package of measures to keep UK users safe online.
This consultation ran from
8 April 2019 to 11:59pm on 1 July 2019


I already did remember.

you have yet to provide a single source for your claim.

if you wish to go off topic and discuss the online harms paper in relation to other areas please feel free to make another thread. I expect one of the community has already made one though so you better search first.


What's the loot box reference? Totally nonsense. You have provided nothing for us to discuss on this thread at all.


so you were disinforming US and you don't have a source and you haven't read or watched the sources I have provided.

that is I believe called trolling

oh dear.


There is no soruce for things don't exist. I already showed you the entire White Paper. Everybody can just use "find" to see there is no "loot boxes" there.

Margot James obviously said:

"Loot boxes are a means of purchasing items, not an additional financial reward. They can't be traded offline for money. I don't think it is true to say loot boxes are gambling"


https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-07-02-digital-minister-margot-james-defends-loot-boxes

25-Aug-2019 01:04:57

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Yes she gave great evidence actually. I think at one point she stated that she thought that the public and health services specifically mental health funding should go into paying for research on treasure hunter.

That's likely.


Is that a regulation? Please show it then for the discussion on topic.

25-Aug-2019 01:17:00

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Yes she gave great evidence actually. I think at one point she stated that she thought that the public and health services specifically mental health funding should go into paying for research on treasure hunter.

That's likely.


Is that a regulation? Please show it then for the discussion on topic.


Pretty sure youre the only one hasn't watched it bucko.


If you can't show anything to discuss, obviously there is nothing to discuss.

Nobody else... like bloggers or journalists can show your comment? :D

25-Aug-2019 01:26:58

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
• The government is consulting on whether the regulator should be a new or existing body. The regulator will be funded by the industry in the medium term, and the government is exploring options such as fees, charges or an industry levy to put it on a sustainable footing.

• Ahead of the implementation of the new regulatory framework, we will encourage companies to take early action to address online harms.
• To assist this, the White Paper sets out high-level expectations of companies, including some specific expectations in relation to certain harms. We expect the regulator to reflect these in future codes of practice.

Hard to show who margots sources were tbh, seemed like she made no sense whatsoever, wonder why she resigned.


She was talking about the regulatory framework mentioned in the White Paper, loot boxes was not mentioned there.

She did not say use other government to do loot box researches at all.

She talked about two things:
(1) Loot boxes is not gambling, so no justification to even talk about regulation.
(2) The Online Harm framework (i.e trolling, bullying, disinformation, etc) is important, and she calls for government funding.

You just tried to link the two independent topics she discussed together.

25-Aug-2019 01:46:18 - Last edited on 25-Aug-2019 01:46:46 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
• The government is consulting on whether the regulator should be a new or existing body. The regulator will be funded by the industry in the medium term, and the government is exploring options such as fees, charges or an industry levy to put it on a sustainable footing.

• Ahead of the implementation of the new regulatory framework, we will encourage companies to take early action to address online harms.
• To assist this, the White Paper sets out high-level expectations of companies, including some specific expectations in relation to certain harms. We expect the regulator to reflect these in future codes of practice.

Hard to show who margots sources were tbh, seemed like she made no sense whatsoever, wonder why she resigned.


She was talking about the regulatory framework mentioned in the White Paper, loot boxes was not mentioned there.

She did not say use other government to do loot box researches at all.

She talked about two things:
(1) Loot boxes is not gambling, so justification to even talk about regulation.
(2) The Online Harm framework (i.e trolling, bullying, disinformation, etc) is important, and she calls for government funding.

You just tried to link the two independent topics she discussed together.


That is all directly from the online harms white paper and nothing to do with maggot.


Again, loot box is NOT on the Online Harm White Paper. You can do a "find" easily and find nothing.

25-Aug-2019 01:52:26

Dilbert2001

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Told you all along. Margot James was not "the" Minister of DCMS. She was just ONE OF THE MANY MINISTERS there.

She was just a representative of DCMS on her July 2 2019 presentation. She did not write the Online Harm White Paper, which held no discussion on loot boxes whatsoever.

DCMS, as a whole, concluded that loot boxes is not gambling and there is no justification to even talk further on regulation.

DCMS, as a whole, thinks public funding should be used to develop the world's first regulatory framework on the Online Harm (i.e. trolling, bullying, disinformation, cyber attacks, etc).

All along, Margot James was just a member of the DCMS. Her area doesn't have to be gambling to present the results of DCMS as a whole on July 2, 2019. DCMS did not have to send out 5 ministers to discuss 5 different topics on July 2, 2019. It is just that simple.

25-Aug-2019 02:20:25

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Told you all along. Margot James was not "the" Minister of DCMS. She was just ONE OF THE MANY MINISTERS there.

She was just a representative of DCMS on her July 2 2019 presentation. She did not write the Online Harm White Paper, which held no discussion on loot boxes whatsoever.

DCMS, as a whole, concluded that loot boxes is not gambling and there is no justification to even talk further on regulation.

DCMS, as a whole, thinks public funding should be used to develop the world's first regulatory framework on the Online Harm (i.e. trolling, bullying, disinformation, cyber attacks, etc).

All along, Margot James was just a member of the DCMS. Her area doesn't have to be gambling to present the results of DCMS as a whole on July 2, 2019. DCMS did not have to send out 5 ministers to discuss 5 different topics on July 2, 2019. It is just that simple.


Yet you spammed about 100 pages about the decision she discussed made years ago by the gambling commission regarding the fact they don't consider loot boxes to be gambling.

My favourite part was when she told a room full of lawyers she would write to them and let them know the difference between the Belgian and uk offline gambling laws. Especially when you consider how much those enquiries cost the public tax payer.


Do you know how much money the UK Parliament.tv talk shows Jagex went to? It costs far more than producing the Oprah Winfred Show.

The gambling comparison reports came from the UK Gambling Commission. It costs the DCMS no money.

25-Aug-2019 02:40:40

Dilbert2001

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DCMS just hosts the talk shows. All the reports mental health, gambling, online harm, data protection, privacy among 9000 other areas all come from their respective sources. It costs DCMS nothing since they only organize those reports and find somebody like a Margot James to present it on a specific date.

If one has to complain about wasting public funds, they will have to complain against all the stupid researches being done on loot boxes gambling and such since they are all irrelevant without real world cases. :D

25-Aug-2019 02:58:31

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
DCMS just hosts the talk shows. All the reports mental health, gambling, online harm, data protection, privacy among 9000 other areas all come from their respective sources. It costs DCMS nothing since they only organize those reports and find somebody like a Margot James to present it on a specific date.

If one has to complain about wasting public funds, they will have to complain against all the stupid researches being done on loot boxes gambling and such since they are all irrelevant without real world cases. :D


The research has been done and presented to the enquiry already.


That only means money otherwise could be spent on more important public issues has been wasted on stupid researches the real world knows will get them nowhere.

In the USA, we already see the FTC ignores all nonsense about loot box investigations because as they clearly advised the public - they could not talk about legal issues without legal cases. That's why they did not do any loot box investigation. They correctly ran a Loot Box Open House to educate the consumers though. I'd assume under UK laws, there would also be something like the 10th Amendment where the State Governments has no rights to make laws without the People (the REAL PEOPLE, not Santa or the Easter Bunny) asking for such laws.

There is only justification to talk about REAL WORLD regulations when there are REAL WORLD pressing issues like a riot for gun control and such. All kinds of researches are just garbage.

25-Aug-2019 03:15:32

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Yes the people have asked for the laws lol. There's about a million petitions actually. Maybe Jagex should move to America. Im sure they won't mind. Or maybe Belgium or China or Australia, or Hawaii. Or maybe France, they will like France.


Any Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny can file a petition. Didn't I say REAL WORLD ISSUES with REAL WORLD uniquely identifiable people?

25-Aug-2019 03:54:55

Dilbert2001

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Loot boxes typically don't sell well in single user and 4-person coops games but are big in MMOs. Nothing unusual for games like Borderland 3 and Gear of War to monetize such games with cosmetics. You don't need government regulations there as fewer players involvement means less pay-to-win things like loot boxes and bonds.

Apex Legends did not do loot boxes right as they could only be obtained with real money. I said it a millions times TH is good because keys can be obtained for free. Respawn made some changes and let players to buy individual loot box skins for $18 each. But the irony is it was actually more expansive to buy all the skins for a fixed $18 each than getting all of them with average luck for $170. It is a choice for the players though.

More ironies on the Apex Legends is even Respawn CEO spoke out against their toxic community and death threats to their employees:

"I apologize to any of our fans that were offended. I will always stand behind the team here at Respawn and support them on speaking out against some of the toxic and nasty comments being directed at them, including everything from death threats to comments aimed at their family and loved ones. But we shouldn't contribute to it when we do comment, and add to the very thing we want to prevent. We need to lead by example."


That showed the toxic community is worse than loot boxes. Death threats and swatting are not going to go unnoticed by the governments. We'll see how this is going to affect Donald Trump's anti-video game toxicity crusade and UK's Online Harm regulatory framework.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/apex-legends-respawn-ceo-responds-to-studios-freel/1100-6469243/

25-Aug-2019 04:38:44

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
They can do all the research they want. Obviously the more research they do the stronger evidence they will have of links between loot boxes and gambling.

What interests me most about this debate is the link between gaming and child abuse, specifically neglect. (I am NOT talking about trolling or terrorism or sexual content for the purpose of this thread) but gaming disorder and addiction and spending money on mummy and daddy's credit card. Not gonna lie, it's fascinating.

As far as gambling is concerned I find it also very amusing that winning money is seen as the problem, because from my perspective that would be the only positive bit about it, but then I don't gamble or spend money on microtransactions at all and treasure hunter makes me feel a bit sick and the fact that Jagex can't even hide the pop up lol.... Anyway...


There are also over 9000 more researches on children spending money online (note: that's online shopping, not specific to games or loot boxes). Of course the governments are aware and in fact most online platforms have parental controls or guidance requirements on children spending money. For instance, Amazon requires e-bay bidders to be over 18 unless they have the consent of the parents. Other countries like Korea also set a purchase limits on online shopping (e.g. there is no refund on internet purchases more than about $60, user be aware).

Not just researches, real world reports also show there are a titanic lot more e-shopping than video game "addicts". However, like online games and social platforms, sales regulation regarding e-bay already falls under the Commerce policy, all the time. There is no specific e-bay regulations or Alibaba regulations and such because there is no need.

25-Aug-2019 16:51:16

Dilbert2001

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UK government reiterated the blur line between online gaming and gambling again with their latest report:

Loot boxes still aren't gambling, says BGC, but concerns raised over similarities and companies that fail to police secondary markets


https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-07-26-british-gambling-commission-industry-should-be-proactively-dealing-with-skin-betting

That's right. Skin gambling is obviously gambling. Sites offering a way to cash out their virtual items for real world money or tangible assets like Steam are also subject to further investigation.

"Counter-Strike: Global Offensive is probably the game we've received the most complaints about"


FIFA loot boxes do not constitute gambling in the UK. While the BGC is aware of "ad hoc examples" of real money gambling through secondary sites, Enright said he was satisfied there is "sufficient, ongoing proactive effort by EA" to prevent players gambling through these sites.
- Brad Enright, BGC programme director

However, games that offer real money prizes (e.g. DMM in a Jagex's OSRS or Fortnite) are not considered gambling games because they offer a free way to participate in the competitions for real money prize or "gambling" simulations. So DMM is not gambling.

Moreover, Duel Arena is not gambling as long as like EA, Jagex provides "sufficient, ongoing proactive effort to prevent players gambling through 3rd party sites".

25-Aug-2019 17:03:28

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
Sup, Lola,

Thanks for the hookup!

If you want a really interesting research document look up: "Loot boxes are again linked to problem gambling: Results of a replication study" by David Zendle and Paul Cairns.


I'm pretty sure you'll like this one!



Commission tells GamesIndustry.biz it did not find loot boxes are gateway to gambling, despite what media reports claim

The UK Gambling Commission has refuted assertions from the media that it links the exposure of children to loot boxes as a gateway to gambling.


https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-11-22-uk-gambling-commission-weve-not-in-anyway-referred-to-loot-boxes-as-exposure-to-gambling

Another committee member cited the work of Dr David Zendle, who identified links between loot boxes and gambling, although James warned that
even Zendle would say his work was correlational
.

"We must be careful. We can't necessarily assume that because there's a correlation between A and B that there is a causal link. Those two modes of research are different and I think we should respect that."


Shame on media misreporting again!!! :D:D:D

25-Aug-2019 17:17:25

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Are products sold in shops regulated?

Is advertising regulated?

Do you have to prove your age to buy some items?

What happens to products shops sell that are found to be harmful?


Yes. Commerce and advertising are regulated. Jagex's games are no exceptions. Nothing harmful is found in Jagex games though.

People go to governments for commerce and advertising regulations, like FTC and BBB in the USA. They never go to a forum or a gaming media site for such regulations even by a miracle they don't misreport as usual. :D

25-Aug-2019 17:54:53

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
So basically what you are saying is that treasure hunter and loot boxes are linked to gambling, spending disorder, gaming disorder and general behaviour disorder. So Jagex is deliberately preying on all of those people.

Can you remind me of the benefit of treasure hunter and loot boxes?


I clearly told you there is no link officially found by the government. The media just misreported as usual on post 1 of this page:

"Commission tells GamesIndustry.biz it did not find loot boxes are gateway to gambling, despite what media reports claim

The UK Gambling Commission has refuted assertions from the media that it links the exposure of children to loot boxes as a gateway to gambling.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-11-22-uk-gambling-commission-weve-not-in-anyway-referred-to-loot-boxes-as-exposure-to-gambling

Another committee member cited the work of Dr David Zendle, who identified links between loot boxes and gambling, although James warned that even Zendle would say his work was correlational.

"We must be careful. We can't necessarily assume that because there's a correlation between A and B that there is a causal link. Those two modes of research are different and I think we should respect that."


No point to go in circle. No links between loot boxes and TH to gambling and everything else you called "harmful". The government clearly said that. I clearly said that.
NO LINK x 9000
. Please don't misreport like the shameful media. :D

25-Aug-2019 18:10:24

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
it did not find loot boxes are gateway to gambling,

No links between loot boxes and TH to gambling

do you see any difference in your words

why are you trying to misrepresent what they said

why are they suggesting that the government invest in more research?

how do you think that is going to stop jagex becoming regulated and being held liable for the harm they are causing.

Clearly the smart people in the games industry do not agree with you berty.


Clearly told both the governments said there is NO LINKS between loot boxes and gambling.

Clearly told you they asked to spend money on research to Online Harm but not loot boxes.

Clearly said no regulation can even be talked about because there is no justification. The regulation is on Harmful online trolling, bullying and disinformation, not to even mention death threats. And Jagex should welcome this. Not only Jagex but Donald Trump, Prince Harry, Twitch, the CEO of Respanwn among a lot of people in the world will rejoice. :D

25-Aug-2019 18:25:59 - Last edited on 25-Aug-2019 18:26:37 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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Yes, the decision has been made. They are going to fund the world's first regulatory framework to combat Online Harm, but uh oh... no loot boxes on the list. :D

They are going to ask the companies to voluntarily enforce forums and in game safety. Certain activities and keywords will be outlawed. So be prepared some people will get muted and barred from entering the games by LAW. They can freely talk about and enjoy loot boxes though. :)

25-Aug-2019 18:39:48

Dilbert2001

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Torgi Nudho said:
xox Lola xox said:
Torgi Nudho said:
xox Lola xox said:
While UK Gambling Commission's stance remains unchanged, a recent survey by Dr David Zendle and Dr Paul Cairns of York St. John University and University of York supported academic claims that loot boxes are "psychologically akin to gambling".

This is the only reference that I can find to any kind of behavioural psychologist in that magazine article.

Please do post the link to the behavioural psychology report that states there is no link between gambling and loot boxes and treasure hunter and that it isn't a gateway.


I've posted multiple researches linking both. The main need scientific research needs is a more longitudinal study it would seem.


Yes and I haven't seen throughout the entire enquiry anything to suggest otherwise.



Totally true, any proper sources or evidence countering what you have been proving has been lacking.


Totally true. Why don't you ask that magazine to show us the sources? They misreported what the DCMS said about loot boxes and gambling and then posted a correction article admitting the rebuttal from DCMS.

Now that we know the DCMS clearly said there is NO LINKS between loot boxes and gambling. It will help if that magazine can show us their sources even though the DCMS had proven it incorrect, citing even the researcher himself said he can't provide any links. :)

25-Aug-2019 19:37:12

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
Torgi Nudho said:
xox Lola xox said:
Torgi Nudho said:
xox Lola xox said:
While UK Gambling Commission's stance remains unchanged, a recent survey by Dr David Zendle and Dr Paul Cairns of York St. John University and University of York supported academic claims that loot boxes are "psychologically akin to gambling".

This is the only reference that I can find to any kind of behavioural psychologist in that magazine article.

Please do post the link to the behavioural psychology report that states there is no link between gambling and loot boxes and treasure hunter and that it isn't a gateway.


I've posted multiple researches linking both. The main need scientific research needs is a more longitudinal study it would seem.


Yes and I haven't seen throughout the entire enquiry anything to suggest otherwise.



Totally true, any proper sources or evidence countering what you have been proving has been lacking.


Totally true. Why don't you ask that magazine to show us the sources? They misreported what the DCMS said about loot boxes and gambling and then posted a correction article admitting the rebuttal from DCMS.

Now that we know the DCMS clearly said there is NO LINKS between loot boxes and gambling. It will help if that magazine can show us their sources even though the DCMS had proven it incorrect, citing even the researcher himself said he can't provide any links. :)


maybe you should post that to the enquiry so they can ask them for their spokesperson source lol

but in fact they have repeatedly stated it makes no difference really.

margot said they should be looking to the health services, which means Jagex are well... fucked...


Why should I? I have no problem with what DCMS said. The magazine neither.

25-Aug-2019 20:01:25

Dilbert2001

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The Irish government's response recently reiterated loot boxes, bonds, Runecoins, subscription fee etc are no different than bidding on e-bay and other e-commerce activity, and therefore not subject to be regulated under any new regulation other than the existing e-commerce laws:

"Where the offers do not fall within the current Irish legal definition of gambling, such purchases are essentially an e-commerce activity. This would fall within the recourse of normal consumer law where there is dissatisfaction on the part of the customer with the purchase."


http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-11-06-2019-335

So, don't like it, don't buy it just like all the other e-commerce products. And if you have any dispute regarding virtual items, just treat them as regular e-commerce items you get from e-bay and such and call your local consumer bureau. Period. :)

25-Aug-2019 20:29:37 - Last edited on 25-Aug-2019 20:30:12 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The Irish government's response recently reiterated loot boxes, bonds, Runecoins, subscription fee etc are no different than bidding on e-bay and other e-commerce activity, and therefore not subject to be regulated under any new regulation other than the existing e-commerce laws:

"Where the offers do not fall within the current Irish legal definition of gambling, such purchases are essentially an e-commerce activity. This would fall within the recourse of normal consumer law where there is dissatisfaction on the part of the customer with the purchase."


http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-11-06-2019-335

So, don't like it, don't buy it just like all the other e-commerce products. And if you have any dispute regarding virtual items, just treat them as regular e-commerce items you get from e-bay and such and call your local consumer bureau. Period. :)


Guess what? Ireland isn't even in the uk.


Guess what? Jagex has business in Ireland too. They will have to abide to their e-commerce law there to earn their happy money. :)

25-Aug-2019 20:48:05

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
xox Lola xox said:
Dilbert2001 said:
The Irish government's response recently reiterated loot boxes, bonds, Runecoins, subscription fee etc are no different than bidding on e-bay and other e-commerce activity, and therefore not subject to be regulated under any new regulation other than the existing e-commerce laws:

"Where the offers do not fall within the current Irish legal definition of gambling, such purchases are essentially an e-commerce activity. This would fall within the recourse of normal consumer law where there is dissatisfaction on the part of the customer with the purchase."


http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-11-06-2019-335

So, don't like it, don't buy it just like all the other e-commerce products. And if you have any dispute regarding virtual items, just treat them as regular e-commerce items you get from e-bay and such and call your local consumer bureau. Period. :)


Guess what? Ireland isn't even in the uk.


Guess what? Jagex has business in Ireland too. They will have to abide to their e-commerce law there to earn their happy money. :)


oh yh I did meet an irish kid on rs once. think he quit


Did that Irish kid also move to Belgium too...oh... it won't matter as Jagex is also perfectly fine in Belgium.

25-Aug-2019 20:51:26

Dilbert2001

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South Korea may be a better place for parents to ask for refunds or chargeback from the money their "kids" paid for in-game purchases. However there will be a limit of about US$ 62 per month. So their FTC will prohibit charge back or refund requests for like a $100 payments in Bonds or a 6-month subscription.

Uh Oh! That's not limited to just loot boxes though because loot boxes are all legal there and they prohibits other forms of gambling so loot boxes in video games are pretty much their only form of legal "gambling" simulations.

South Korea may be a good place to live or operate a video game business too. :)

The Fair Trade Commission (FTC in South Korea) is concerned with in-game purchases in PC and mobile games. In particular, one concern is the clauses game companies enact regarding minors’ in-game purchases.

“But if an underage user actively deceives parents, that’s on the kids. If a minor spends more than the legally allowed amount of 70,000 won ($62) a month, he or she will be held accountable.”


https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/south-koreas-ftc-review-1203193214/

26-Aug-2019 17:22:03 - Last edited on 26-Aug-2019 17:22:51 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001

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xox Lola xox said:
article 17 (access to information from the media) Every child has the right to reliable information from a variety of sources, and governments should encourage
the media
to provide information that children can understand. Governments must help protect children from materials that could harm them


Exactly that's why
the media
should provide information on in-game purchases like Bonds and Premier Club membership... but wait... isn't
the media
already doing that? Isn't
the media
like TV, radio, newspapers, etc already doing it?

26-Aug-2019 20:03:01

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