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Enough, already. [Raids|Comp]

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Kakamile

Kakamile

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OP, PLEASE STOP BUMPING! At least stop keeping it to the first page.

The last forced group activity was actually the raids update you created the thread for, over 11 months ago.

And besides the fact that a completionist cape SHOULD require you to complete everything, it's just a one kill requisite that demonstrates at least an effort to explore content. Given that comp cape takes a minimum half a year, I don't see how getting one single kill in that time is constricting to players.
As for requiring experience, time improves players. The more time goes on, the easier the comp req becomes.

21-Jun-2016 07:35:16

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Audx said:
does an excellent job of staying on the first page on its own
Aye, curious how an eight day post gap keeps the thread on the first page. The forum MUST be dead. /s
I regret bumping.

Audx said:
depend on other players to an unacceptable extent
one kill, in any amount of time you desire to take to complete this challenge. The quest cape is not rewarded for talking to the involved npc's. The taskmaster emote isn't a reward for dabbling in tasks and giving up. The Tech Trees requisite is not finished by obtaining a task regardless of if you finish it.
Reaper is an exceedingly courteous interpretation of completion, a very basic standard that shows off a player's savvy without demanding they waste excess time on the content.

Audx said:
the issue of leeching
which makes the requirement even easier for the more disinclined soccermoms. This argument actually suggests the req be made harder.

Audx said:
effort alone is not a satisfactorily measurable quality when establishing a requirement.
Too true.

Audx said:
Unfortunately, this is not necessarily the case.
It actually is the case, and the "road" being linear or not does not void the fact that content becomes more accessible given interest and patience. Eventually a progressing player will surpass a set req for access and their chance of success will increase.

It sets a very bad direction for the game if the high tier of players, the Completionists, are defined as those who try content with no interest in actually beating it.

22-Jun-2016 04:35:00

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Audx said:
. It is not uncommon, in the Existing Game Content forum, for a thread to go a week or longer without a response, yet also remain on the front page of the subforum. If you don't believe me, look at the last post dates - many of them are nearing a week or longer without supplementation.
Bump-supported lies ;) Threads from the 13th are in fact on page 6/7 not page 1, and this thread would be ~5 or so had I not posted and had you not bumped, to review, so you can get a personal jmod response. But since you'll keep bumping until you get a personal jmod response despite them already having forums on it in HLF, again I regret posting here and I am done.

Audx said:
On that issue, I will resign myself to respectful disagreement
Then disagree. Your standard of "dabbling" in content not even completing a game/kill/task is contrary to both precedent of both capes and contrary to "completion" by definition.

Audx said:
I am not sure how you came to that conclusion
The existence of leeching means that otherwise "stressful" content that you dislike becomes exponentially easier, because although I don't like it players can get around requirements and experience by getting a leech. This rather negates the point of Reaper to demonstrate a basic level of capability, and if anything leeching requires harder reqs not easier ones.

Audx said:
Juxtaposed, the interest of a player in "beating" content and merely exploring it proves a significant variation in the two concepts
Mechanics apply as part of the content.
Does one explore a boss by observing its spawn animation? No
Does one have savvy in a boss if they've never experienced its mechanics? No
Has one explored a quest if they have only accepted it without further progress? No
Has one explored a city just by picking up its song unlocks? No

22-Jun-2016 06:22:59

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Has one explored baseball if he's bought a ball and entered the pitch? No
Has one explored an art form by being told the medium's name when seeing a single painting? No
My argument can be challenged ad infinitum and still be more sound than the idea of calling yourself "completionist" just for entering the map area.
It doesn't matter when you do the content, but the fact is you have been provided the time to do so, the opportunity, and the environment to do so, so if you deny interest that's your choice to not earn the comp cape.

22-Jun-2016 06:28:30

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Oh, people are still posting. My mistake.

Klareon said:
This means that bosses such as RotS, Vorago, the Raids Bosses etc. (I'm a little indifferent about Nex, as soloing her is technically possible, but requires a lot of training) should not be part of the title
Abandoning content due to your being intimidated by group requirements is wasting great opportunities.
Comp doesn't have to be achieved in one day. It doesn't have to be achieved in one trial/attempt.

You have as long as you need to find a group and learn the content, which due to guides and reaper becomes ever more possible every day.

Klareon said:
that some people simply cannot keep up with the fast-paced, sometimes nerve-wracking experience that is high-level bossing
See above. And yet, friends of mine who actually want to complete the game, whether sick or other-abled, still have beaten the bosses. It's amusing when you try to cripple the game in their honor when they are able to achieve and be proud of achieving what you think is impossible.

Pokkle said:
Why the hell do we need to complete thousands upon thousands of livid farm rounds?
This I agree with. If a grind doesn't unlock a significant content, it's not a reasonable comp req, because grinds are artificial challenges that insult the developer. Livid farm rewards are pretty significant though, and I use them like seren spells every day.

Audx said:
it so starkly contrasts any requirement which has ever preceded it
Did not jagex declare its standards for Comp and Trim comp requirements, while also acknowledging that it would be more damaging to revise old reqs? The result is a bias on adding reqs that don't mesh with the old rules.


I'd like to learn more about this "right of the Completionist," and please describe it without giving a mockery of player entitlement.

15-Jul-2016 01:38:48 - Last edited on 15-Jul-2016 01:43:04 by Kakamile

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Whether it follows a linear, asymptotal, exponential, power, or other trend, bosses WILL become easier given time. Saying you don't think it's linear does not refute that those who care will be able to complete the reqs, and if the time constraint is excessive waiting will solve that.


Edit: because it's funny how much you bump this necrothread
Audx said:
Before I continue, allow me to propose the following question: How (in what manner) do bosses get easier over time?

* New guides and strategies
* New content players get access to
* Improved understanding of mechanics
Given that bosses do not change but players and player meta improve, the boss will become easier.Audx said:
I intend for it to be interpreted in the most literal way possible
And thus trying to distort an argument for which most of 114 pages of posts agree with my perspective.Audx said:
In what way can waiting possibly offer a guaranteed resolution to one's inability to encounter and successfully defeat a boss?
There are no guarantees in life but death. If you try you will succeed but expecting 100% certainty? Well stop playing a game with challenges.

26-Jul-2016 04:35:38 - Last edited on 07-Aug-2016 04:50:33 by Kakamile

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Sereg said:
But in the time it's taken me to catch up to those bosses, we now have Vorago, Raids, and Telos, which are well and truly beyond me
Good point, I meant technique meta always improves but gear options always improve too.

Even as recent as those bosses are, there have been revolutionary meta changes like:
Rago
- Reflect Detonate, Onslaught gb and build adren on vits, dragging scops, intercept tanking
Raids
- Enhanced Devo + intercept tanking, soul splitting 5th attack and jellies, reflect tendril
Raxx
- Mage walking duo, rushing top path, snipe resonance, Onslaught raxxi
Telos
- Nat into sun revenge detonate tsunami, reflect tendril, time surge for res of stun

Any time you're interested in getting help on bosses group or solo normal mode or hard mode (idk if OP wants help but I've never seen him in learning fc's) you're welcome to ask in 'Boss School' fc.

09-Oct-2016 17:37:12

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Sereg said:
Thanks for that transcript, Audx. Hopefully your issue will be resolved to your satisfaction - until then, I think some of the discussion is worthy of continuation.
indeed

Apparently the two bosses audx argues most "impede" players due to group reqs are two of the five most killed bosses daily.
And the #1 most killed boss in the game is most effectively killed as a duo.

And 3000 players a day fight the raids bosses, a statistic that has been stable nearly since release 16 months ago. And the number has been rising recently.


On release
Reaper
may have been an intimidating challenge and I would have sympathized with struggling players back in 2015, but I predicted the community would grow to manage the boss and I think I was right.
There are even HCIM who have full achto sets now!Kakamile said:
Whether it follows a linear, asymptotal, exponential, power, or other trend, bosses WILL become easier given time. Saying you don't think it's linear does not refute that those who care will be able to complete the reqs, and if the time constraint is excessive waiting will solve that.
Kakamile said:
Any time you're interested in getting help on bosses group or solo normal mode or hard mode (idk if OP wants help but I've never seen him in learning fc's) you're welcome to ask in 'Boss School' fc.

11-Nov-2016 02:18:23 - Last edited on 11-Nov-2016 02:22:18 by Kakamile

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Sereg said:
But because of the release tempo, the same doesn't follow for the Completionist cape itself.
And we will always be here, willing to teach people how to beat the intimidating new boss.

Before eoc, it was MONEY instead of skill that judged your fate at bosses. All that mattered was if you could get the best gear and that decided if you could join the teams, like void+ely only nexing.
Now it's based on skill and intuiting rotation, which is a good thing to inspire current pros to beat new challenges and poorer players to get involved.

We're at a fun point where skill supercedes money, where I can be cheap in the pocket slot and not use the best perks and still get the drops in a group, and I have friends who are even better than myself.

For Reaper title, the entrance is patience and attention, which is something that can be taught. And we are willing to help. Clearly raids is viable for players with 3000 and rising players doing raids a day, and don't forget you only need to do it ONCE for reaper.

And for Telos, you only need to beat the weakest form without p5, with a rotation that's published everywhere from youtube to spreadsheets to the wiki. And again we'll help you. Or if you don't trust us you can try a pvm clan or a friend or youtube guides or the wiki.

Release tempo? There's one hard boss per year. Before Telos was GW2 which can be massed and was designed easier than Nex as a new med-tier boss for helping people learn EOC bossing. Before that was Raids in July 2015 then Araxxor in July 2014. There are new abilities and gear faster than boss releases.

If they struggle, there's help. Don't be telling people that bossing is impossible when there are resources available. Go to any learning fc and they'll fix up your gear and tell you techniques and you can even join them on fights no elitism required. Even jmods are helping, by fixing issues for colourblind players.

11-Nov-2016 19:10:27

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Audx said:
Though I certainly found that statistic to be interesting, I do believe I accounted for it in this thread's creation
I'm not seeing how the comment that raids includes two of the five most killed bosses (that means, more than vindicta more than qbd more than most low tier bosses) is accounted for by your presumption that raids is only targetted by "elite" bossers.
The statistics, in fact, disagree with your presumption. All the more relevant when players can only gain from raids once every TWO DAYS, showing that although raids is not farmed by players it is one of the most consistently, widely targeted bosses, more than easier bosses, more than f2p kbd.Audx said:
sufficient motivator for these parties to continue killing the Raids bosses
Indeed, raids are both consistently (3k players raid per day since 2015) and successfully killed.
This thread discusses the potential "impediment" of players being unable to group boss, but the facts show that raids has vitality and players are indeed able to raid. There are more raid learning fc's than other bosses, more clans and fc's consistently raiding than other bosses, and raid bosses are 2/5 most killed bosses by day over the past 12 months.Audx said:
If the audience has neither grown nor declined significantly, it can also be reasonably inferred that the majority of the audience has not changed either - thus, that it is the same groups of players engaging in this content regularly.
aye, seems like
Given the fact that raids has more vitality by proportion of the playerbase than far "easier" bosses but without a significant gain of players raiding over time, it doesn't seem like the challenge level of raids is what's preventing raids. Instead I'm of the opinion it's a social bias that those who think they can't raid won't try to get into it.

17-Nov-2016 06:35:25 - Last edited on 17-Nov-2016 06:56:42 by Kakamile

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Sereg said:
Araxxor is only possible for me if I spend days at a time, and countless millions worth of brews and repairs, practicing it
But did you not say you stopped pvming?Sereg said:
PvM is certainly a part of that decision - I play so casually now that I gain nothing quickly, and for me, any bossing skill I ever achieve(which, I assure you, isn't much) fades very quickly when I'm inactive. I've never been big on the social side - I have a very small friends list, I'm not in a clan, and I have no connections whatsoever for teams for bosses which require them. I don't have money - my PvM skills are far behind the average for players with my total level, and my views on merchanting are so negative I won't even bring them into this thread.
You're arguing that the 4th or 2nd hardest boss in the game is too hard when you are so inactive that low-end bossing isn't something you do.
With that, I agree you shouldn't go for comp capel; if you don't enjoy the game what achievement will completing it do? Forcing yourself to play content you don't enjoy, not just bossing. Bossing is definitely the most obvious example, but if you're inactive in a constantly updating game don't pressure yourself to complete something you dislike.

For those who are active in the game, araxxor/raids/telos is less of a leap. Same with those actively playing finding arc less of a struggle, quests, minigames, and songs.

Note, you got Araxxor kills twice, so technically you've already finished that part of the reaper req! Despite not playing much and thinking araxxor is above your level, you actually completed and went PAST reaper on the 4th or 2nd hardest boss. Comp is not as far as you may think.

If you do decide to go for comp, you're welcome to pm or join the fc.

19-Nov-2016 21:00:54

Kakamile

Kakamile

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But reaper is attainable if you actually commit to try for it, it makes sense to include pvm as a req for a cape that celebrates achievement (even if it's just 1kc at least it shows you learned the mechanics), and the cape nearly exclusively has pvm benefits (xpt two features). top pvm stats, prayer teleport, summoning restore (to compensate for specs), ammo reclaim, skeletal horror teleport.
Kakamile said:
Whether it follows a linear, asymptotal, exponential, power, or other trend, bosses WILL become easier given time. Saying you don't think it's linear does not refute that those who care will be able to complete the reqs, and if the time constraint is excessive waiting will solve that.
Kakamile said:
Any time you're interested in getting help on bosses group or solo normal mode or hard mode (idk if OP wants help but I've never seen him in learning fc's) you're welcome to ask in 'Boss School' fc.

30-Nov-2016 19:40:40

Kakamile

Kakamile

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The first was originally directed @audx who argued that since raids doesn't get easier linearly, jargon jargon jargon, it isn't getting easier. The point is if you're patient and interested, all bosses over time become more viable.

I've already discussed my main feedback to you. If you don't play actively, getting comp will mean very little as an achievement. If you do play actively, raids is not a high benchmark and we will even help you learn it.

02-Dec-2016 08:03:06

Kakamile

Kakamile

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Aidanm said:
So why not spread out the accessibility of content by making low, mid, and high level versions of the bosses
because it's been tried already with 4 gwd bosses, 4 gwd2 bosses, mimic, mole, kq, vorago, and failed every time?
Araxxor people at least do duo hardmode, but only because duo is 2x the speed and gph with both players getting loot. If it was one chest nobody would duo raxx.
Making multiple challenge options leads to players farming the easier version regardless of jagex bait.
I'd hate to see jagex design three versions of the exact same boss and see the challenge mode be dead content.

I'd especially hate to see this nerf happen to bosses considered easy already by the 3k/day that raid. Even if you thought it hard on release, there are too many communities willing to help you get past the 0kc barrier.
Kakamile said:
Any time you're interested in getting help on bosses group or solo normal mode or hard mode (idk if OP wants help but I've never seen him in learning fc's) you're welcome to ask in 'Boss School' fc.

25-Mar-2017 21:23:27 - Last edited on 25-Mar-2017 21:26:06 by Kakamile

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