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I support Jagex in re-release,Thread is locked

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Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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@ Mr Mf Doom

Just forget about that guy, he feeds off of responses, failing to comprehend why his ideas are economically and fundamentally flawed.

Found it amusing to read that merchers don't deserve wealth and that we don't work for our money. Its like, we sit at the ge, and click pickpocket on those poor pvmers who can't seem to make the ends meet.

Even the slightest idea of how economies work should dissuade anybody from re-release suggestions, even in the form of a shop. But I guess, its easy to blame everyone else, rather than to look at personal ignorance.

10-Jan-2018 21:13:53

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Whatusaytome said:
It has been common knowledge for months that my suggestion for rerelease is make these specific items into the games largest gold sink. if you don't know that much, that is all on you for not visiting any other forum, such as Existing Game Content.

Literally, front page news for the longest time. Sorry for assuming you actually cared about the game, appears you are only interested in threads that bring you money.


Just visited your thread, and apparently only 3 people agreed with your idea (in 16 pages). So I don't know what are you talking about your thread being "front page news". If you stop bumping it with useless info, it will be "page 51 news".

11-Jan-2018 00:13:25

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Whatusaytome said:
You seem to have a much better understanding than most for sure.

But yes, they would have a full refund available in my concept. They wouldnt have to "store their wealth in other items" as each one of these 146 hats in my store (146 is the amount of colors usable on these forums) are increasing placeholders that can only ever increase in value, either manually, or coded by jagex.

I would prefer them manually increase it anytime it is actually a concern, but i am fine with them increasing the base costs for each hat in the store to be in line with the natural inflation over time.

What i mostly see though actually in game, is the people who keep their hats own them for showing off that they are rich. which is what i think partyhats should be, status symbols of wealth.


Now I get it why your idea doesn't convince anyone. You don't even know yourself what you want implemented. First you say that marchers should be punished. Then you say that party hats should be the status of wealth. Then you say that there is no way for party hats to crash with your idea. Then you say that party hats will actually be untraceable. Then you say that the price of party hats will rise in your shop. Then you say that players will be taxed on refund for their hats. Then you say that hats can be easily refunded on request.

As I said on your thread and as most of the people say on this thread, your idea is flawed and will never ever work. You have no credentials what so ever to say that ANY of your ideas are credible. You admitted on your thread that you don't care about xp. So what were you doing for all those "12,000 hrs gameplay time"?

11-Jan-2018 22:12:56

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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And to add to my point above.

If we are given full refund for our party hats from your shop, you know the first thing I am going to do? Invest into other discontinued items and make them rise to party hat prices. What are you going to do then? Release all the other items through the shop?

What next, I'll invest into TT rares, and make them rise. You will want to release those through the shop too. Fine. Ill go into high level weapons, into supplies, into armour. I will still retain 100m+ margins on my flips, at your expense of having to grind countless of hours to make ends meet.

Then you gonna want to release all items in runescape through shops. Well, by that point majority would have already quit, so have fun playing alone I guess?

11-Jan-2018 22:18:37

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Whatusaytome said:
So you admit that you would personally manipulate other items to this point. Thanks for admitting that and proving my point. They would simply ban you if this was the case. It would be much more obvious when some new item suddenly starts curving this way in the charts and following the people owning these limited items via the marketplaces.


Now you calling investment a manipulation. You think that just because I buy an item and sell it at a higher price I manipulate. You make me laugh. I never manipulated in my life and yet I was partly responsible for hats and other rares in reaching their current prices.

I don't feel shame when I say that I hope when I flip any items on GE, you are missing out. I hope that every time you instant buy an item and instant sell it, I get the margin straight into my pocket. I will never be stopped and I will continue to profit on your ignorance, impatience and lack of economic understanding. I hope that people realise one day that rich people don't get there by manipulation, but by hard work. I hope you realise you are to blame for making merching / flipping the most profitable activity.

11-Jan-2018 22:30:42 - Last edited on 11-Jan-2018 22:31:36 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Love how you throw words like supply and demand, but fail to understand their meaning.

Imagine, there is 100 coins in the economy as a whole and 10 party hats. Each party hat will cost 10 coin.

Now release 10 santa hats into the game. 100 coins need to be used to buy 10 party hats and 10 santas at the same time, so party hats will only cost 10 coins each if santa hats cost 0.

Now, you release the shop where I can buy unlimited number of party hats but also sell them back at no cost.

If everyone were to sell their party hat to the shop at 0 coins, we have 0 party hats, 10 santas and 100 coins. Santa hats could now reach 10 coins each, becoming new party hats.

In reality though, we would have 10 santas, 0 party hats and 200 coins, because initial 100 didn't disappear, so santa hats would then be double what the party hats originally cost.


This is a scenario going on supply and demand alone. The issue is much more complicated, but you need to slowly comprehend economics, so I won't go into too much detail how I would go about turning lowers into new party hats very quickly. Wont take me years for sure.

11-Jan-2018 23:18:38 - Last edited on 11-Jan-2018 23:22:39 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Lol, you are throwing words like demand and supply. Then you tell me that they are unrealistic. What am I supposed to think of your reasoning. You contradict yourself every single post and bring nothing new to the discussion. You have almost no supporters and everyone already told you not only that your ideas are bad, but also the reason for such assertions.

Then you come and tell people that they have no idea what they are talking about. I know that if everyone is doing the wrong thing, it doesn't make it right. But sometimes you have to look in the mirror yourself and ask yourself the question: "Am I really the right one here?".

11-Jan-2018 23:32:10

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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We are not skilled, ok. Show us how you can make bills better? If you are so skilful, you should have no trouble.

When you say that Jagex would happily screw us over, what you really imply is that you HATE everyone who is better than you. And not only that, you want them punished. This is beyond any moral and ethical concept out there.

Our power will not get nerfed. Even in the time of restricted trade, rich have not lost their power. Its people like you who misunderstand and think that power is "bad". Power is just control. Accountability is control. Justice is control. Genocide is control. Discrimination is control. Well, as sad as it sounds, you are discriminating against me. You want the power to shift towards you without lifting a finger. Well, you are more selfish than anyone who you are trying to accuse of manipulation.

11-Jan-2018 23:56:18

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Why would anyone take lessons from the guy who uses but doesn't understand the words: demand, supply, manipulation, control, overpowered and selfish?

You put through a hypothetical scenario, which doesn't work in real life. Then you dismiss everyone else's reasoning as being hypothetical and irrelevant.

No wonder you got no support.


Literally everything you say against us can be said against yourself:
- You don't listen.
- You don't understand.
- You don't change your mind.
- Your posts are irrelevant.
- You are selfish.
- You are acting like a god.
- You are not skilled.

And this is just this page. What are you even trying to achieve? Jmods use reddit and twitter for ideas. Forums are mainly used for communication with other players. If you are going to outright reject everyone who thinks logically, you achieve nothing. Stop being jealous and reframe your re-release plan. I can see that in some shape or form people would like to have access to the most expensive items in the game, but your idea is beyond flawed.

12-Jan-2018 01:02:05 - Last edited on 12-Jan-2018 01:02:29 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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OH MY GOD, and I thought you didn't know how to google.

Explain to us then, how does your idea, in any way differs from "Cornering the market" as you say?

And while you are at it, you said I manipulate the partyhats. Explain in the above terms exactly what I personally do?

12-Jan-2018 01:16:35

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Whatusaytome said:
Tom Grey said:
Stop being jealous and reframe your re-release plan. I can see that in some shape or form people would like to have access to the most expensive items in the game, but your idea is beyond flawed.
Stop trying to hate, reread the full idea previous to your attempts at disrupting my points. Before our entire debate, where the other man actually grasped the concept.

The idea is not flawed in it's reason or purpose. It is only flawed in the sense players still have too much power over the game, impacting it negatively for everybody other than themselves.

And again, you seem to think my concept is only for me. Proving you still don't get it.


Be consistent in your ideas and maybe we won't have to re-read it every time you post.

Explain how do we impact the game negatively? Am I forcing you to buy a party hat with a gun to your head? Am I telling you that you need to engage in unethical behaviour in order to obtain the party hat? Am I stopping you from skilling, pvm, pvp or any other RS activity? Am I going into your bank and stealing your items?

We keep the market stable. We provide the means to trade between people who are ignorant towards prices. Without us some items on the market would be completely worthless.

Just look at the low volume items. The margins on them are so high, not because merchants set those margins. No. Its because nobody wants to buy them very high and nobody wants to sell them very low. This is why you think you are getting screwed over every time you buy anything like that.

We merchants and traders keep the prices stable and get rewarded for it. Trading party hats is no exception. Without us, the prices would be all over the place. You want to drive us away and have exuberant margins on everything?

12-Jan-2018 01:26:04

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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"It is making a useless cosmetic that is overpriced and already under the control of players and putting Jagex back in control while keeping it overpriced while making manipulation of this item impossible."


Putting Jagex in control to fix the prices. Seems exactly like cornering the market to me. Can anyone tell me if they think otherwise?

"You mean to tell me that the supply and demand for weens is suddenly going to reflect exactly like partyhats without somebody generating more activity than is already in the activity of these also limited items? Would require a lot of owners sacrificing them to limit the supply to that same quantity as partyhats to be priced that way."


Goes back to my example with coins, which you completely disregarded. If economy has 100 coins and 10 party hats, these party hats will cost 10 coins each. If I am now allowed to sell my party hat for 10 coins each to the shop, instead of finding a buyer for the same price, why would I not do it? So the shop provides me with an ability to convert my party hat into cash.

Then if all 10 party hats are sold to the shop once each, we will now have 200 gold overall. We doubled our monetary supply.

Now, we get to the nice bit. My plan would be to invest into santa hats for example at their current price. Over time more party hats will be sold to your shop, resulting in hyperinflation. Hyperinflation will transfer to the santa hats rising in price. Since santa hats cannot be bought from the shop, they will be used as new party hats for status and merchanting.

Where is painting the tape in that scenario I have no idea. I haven't spread any false rumour. I haven't hyped up the price. All I did was buy and hold. In what way am I manipulating?

12-Jan-2018 01:51:47 - Last edited on 12-Jan-2018 02:00:56 by Tom Grey

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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MR MF DOOM said:
Tom like you told me earlier just stop responding to this clown. This guy doesn't have a grasp on the definition of anything. Go work for Jagex otherwise they don't give a rat's ass about your flawed conception of re-release
I should, shouldn't I.

I just always find it so sad, that people listen to clowns like this, and then go create arguments they have no understanding of. He (and people like him in Runescape and outside) are responsible for the gap in communication between communities. We help each other in so many ways, yet we are forced to listen to those who want to divide us. Considering we are not the majority, we always seem to be regarded as scapegoats.

12-Jan-2018 01:59:31

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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This was a simplistic scenario. I can complicate it more, with bringing velocity of transactions into play, players attitude towards the potential future re-release of lowers, higher inflation impact on other money making methods, change in customer player base, future gold / item sinks, seasonal fluctuations, manipulation, transparency in trading, overall supply of party hats at any one time.

You wouldn't understand how those variables affect the equation at the end of the day, hence why I showed you that I personally, without manipulating the market, would be responsible for the rise of santa hats if party hats were to be released from the shop.

You accuse me of manipulation. You accuse everyone who is rich of manipulation. You want our moneymaking methods nerfed. Well ask yourself a question, does anyone in runescape want you to stay? If you are so unhappy (delusional) with the state of a small part of economy, why not leave? This and other threads already showed you that your idea is useless and unsupported.

Anyway, unlike you, I will actually stop replying to your posts. You may do whatever afterwards. Think that you won all you want. Won't make you an inch smarter I'm afraid.

12-Jan-2018 02:09:52

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:
felowz said:

My friend, have a gn sleep then check the definition of a Runescape "rare" on Runewiki. "Discontinued items are items that can no longer be obtained in-game" - Runewiki
A discontinued item may be rare, but a rare item is not always discontinued. Rare simply means uncommon or hard to find/obtain. Discontinued means no longer available or no longer produced. If partyhats were added to a npc store for say 30b or current price, then they'd still be rare given not everyone has 30b in their pockets.

Also, the runewiki is not official, it is edited by players and anything can be written on it. It doesn't define and shape up how the game is. The point is the wiki has been wrong before and changes accordingly to the actions of Jagex.


The point is that you are trying to use the definition of a discontinued item from the real world, which has nothing to do with the how it is perceived in game. Language is naturally used by people to communicate ideas, explicitly and implicitly. Since party hats were called discontinued rares back before any other rares existed, discontinued meant that they won't return.

Putting them in the store will no longer make them discontinued, hence why I don't even understand why are you pushing this idea through. Makes 0 sense.

Also, if you are going to say that runewiki is not official, please check where you got the definitions of the words rare and discontinued from. Unless they are written by Jagex themselves, the definition may be completely different. A good example would be the word abyss. Real world definition - a deep or seemingly bottomless chasm. Runescape abyss is not bottomless if you haven't been there yet.

12-Jan-2018 11:01:05

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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I am sure that he cannot if he is against making money from party hats.

Gameplay is already fair for everyone. You are not prohibited from engaging in any activity that grows your wealth that we can do.

If you actually read people’s posts you would clearly read that the definition outside runescape doesn’t matter in runescape because this is an alternative reality. Many things in RuneScape are defined differently than their actual real world definition.

12-Jan-2018 17:14:15

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:
Tom Grey said:
I am sure that he cannot if he is against making money from party hats.

Gameplay is already fair for everyone. You are not prohibited from engaging in any activity that grows your wealth that we can do.

If you actually read people’s posts you would clearly read that the definition outside runescape doesn’t matter in runescape because this is an alternative reality. Many things in RuneScape are defined differently than their actual real world definition.
It's not fair. if you believe so then, you lack knowledge of the unfair gameplay that partyhats cause. Yes maybe the abyss differs from the real world, however the terms rare and discontinued apply the same both onto the game and real life. Rare items from both the game and real world have the same similarity in the sense that it's rare. I don't know what you're trying to get at by bringing in the real world into a game item discussion.


Merchers are probably the only people who know about fair game play, which clearly you are not.

And the point I make with real world definition, is that if you gonna apply real world definition of discontinued to a game, you better be certain that the definition is the same. Since they differ in the context of discontinued rares, you can't use that line of reasoning to prove that they will continue or should continue to be released in the future.

12-Jan-2018 21:31:47

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:
Anjo said:
NO SUPPORT,

One of the few things that runescape moves is the goal of reaching the Rare, and obviously not something that prevents those who do not have to play.

Im playing Runescape for 14 years and I think doing so will lose little of what remains of Runescape's gameplay.

;)
Except the part partyhats have been irrelevant to the gameplay since 2001, and a bit of references here and there.


Except they stayed relevant to this day. Hence why we are discussing them right now.

12-Jan-2018 21:34:14

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Foxxy said:
Yes, that is the whole idea of a free market. Should someone be able to dictate to you how much you sell your house to them for? You want 300k for your house, but someone else can force you to sell it for 75k? No, that is ridiculous.


How can you prove the point to someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the word fair? You can't.

Turksta is living in an idealistic world where nobody needs to work and everyone has access to everything. Since we are living in the real world, and such is not the case, he will never understand how economies function.

I already explain the meaning of the words fair = legitimate and open to everyone. He doesn't understand. You already gave him an example of what is fair, he doesn't understand. You found a flaw in his example of fair, he doesn't understand. Worst thing is that he is thinking his moral codex is altruistic, while we know its egoistic in every way.

There are 3-4 people who support this idea. Nobody in the right mind think re-release is fair to anyone. Those of us who know how economies operate show what could happen if such an update would come to fruition. This includes hyperinflation, redistribution of money into dyes, other rares, codexes, armour, weapons and so on. Such an update will also cause people to quit.

I haven't heard a single point, where this "idea" will benefit me, merchers, casual players or new players. So why release an update that hurts everyone. Because people like him think that lack of skill is anything to be proud of. Anyone who is smart and efficient should be punished. This is not the world we live in right now, and I am glad. This idea will never pass, so what are we even discussing.

13-Jan-2018 14:06:30

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13-Jan-2018 14:59:13

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Mad Mazie said:
Why not free level 120s in all skills for everyone while you're at it as well..

Rares are cosmetic items, they don't give anyone an advantage so stop being jealous maybe? Be happy you can at least buy a party hat instead of never being able to get one like with certain anniversary and event items (like Dark Cape).


Exactly what I am thinking. Good book on the subject is Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. As soon as you open the pandora's box, you cannot close it anymore. It applies to this scenario perfectly. Say shop is released and partyhats lose majority of their current characteristics. Then we have other items that take their place and get released through the shop.

When everything in runescape is released through the shop, where would we go next? Just like you said, xp you can buy from the shop (because people don't have time to work and play), Quests completion you can buy (because people don't have internet connection to do a battle), Pets you can buy (because nothing in runescape should be rare anymore).

People don't understand that free market has to be free. This means free from regulatory interference too. All Jagex has to do is create rules and enforce them. If tomorrow we get a rule that prevents us from flipping partyhats, I will follow it to the dot even though I don't agree with it. If tomorrow we get a shop with partyhats, I will just make lowers my new partyhats, since its not against the rules and I don't find it immoral in any way.

13-Jan-2018 15:08:52 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2018 15:10:30 by Tom Grey

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13-Jan-2018 15:18:42

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:
Tom Grey said:

Exactly what I am thinking. Good book on the subject is Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. As soon as you open the pandora's box, you cannot close it anymore. It applies to this scenario perfectly. Say shop is released and partyhats lose majority of their current characteristics. Then we have other items that take their place and get released through the shop.

When everything in runescape is released through the shop, where would we go next? Just like you said, xp you can buy from the shop (because people don't have time to work and play), Quests completion you can buy (because people don't have internet connection to do a battle), Pets you can buy (because nothing in runescape should be rare anymore).

People don't understand that free market has to be free. This means free from regulatory interference too. All Jagex has to do is create rules and enforce them. If tomorrow we get a rule that prevents us from flipping partyhats, I will follow it to the dot even though I don't agree with it. If tomorrow we get a shop with partyhats, I will just make lowers my new partyhats, since its not against the rules and I don't find it immoral in any way.
Who said anything about rereleasing every item via the store, You're just going way too far there. I don't support quests, xp etc buyable from the store.


When T92 weps are 15b+, you will come and whine for their release through the store, that is why.

13-Jan-2018 15:19:20

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:
Tom Grey said:


120 has a cosmetic cape you can obtain with effort and hard work. If you go ahead and screw everyone who puts in an effort to get a partyhat with hard work, why not screw those who got 120 too?
Well for one 1. i'm not screwing anyone who puts in an effort to have a partyhat, 2. 120 capes are part of the gameplay and there's no issues revolving around 120s.


You are screwing them, because who to attain party hat wear it as an achievement that they were able to obtain the most wealth in the game. But also, because its a safe investment against inflation which they can liquidate at any time they want. Shop idea ruins both of those concepts.

Partyhats are part of game play. You can either raise xp skilling and attain 120 cape. Or you can use your skills to attain the most wealth in the game by buying a party hat.

Just because we use it to make more money, doesn't give you the right to come and tell us what we should and should not be doing. Next you gonna want to make sure that skilling never profits you, because you shouldn't have two benefits at once. God forbid, I fart in the wrong place and you hear it.

13-Jan-2018 15:24:36

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Turksta said:


Weapons won't be 15b, dw. They're are a continued item meaning there's more and more entering the game.


Are you sure? History showed great examples of weapons becoming more expensive even if they can be obtained through gameplay:

DFS at 30 mil, even though more coming into the game.
Ely and Divine at 1b, even though Corp was farmed.
Bandos armour set at 45m even though Bandos was soloable.
AGS at 100m even though Arma was highly farmed.
Seismic wands rose from 800m to 2.5b in a day, just because it was bought out.
Pernix armour at 2b, even though people mass killed nex.
Dyes at 2b, even though clues were completed every day.
Nox weps, T92 weps, T90 shields, T90 armour, Codexes. All the best items in the game have more demand than supply.

They are the case because people use them to make more money and their price is deemed reasonable. If you don't understand why everything would go up in price and need a better example, look at old school runescape. TBOW is at 1b. Why do you think that is the case? Because its most sought item? No, because there is too much money in the game, and this is the item that can easily be merched.

13-Jan-2018 15:30:35 - Last edited on 13-Jan-2018 15:31:12 by Tom Grey

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13-Jan-2018 15:36:54

Tom Grey

Tom Grey

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Mr Gatsby said:
berner415 said:
Turksta said:
Mr Gatsby said:
Now show where in the rules does it say these types of manipulation are against the rules. The only ones that are against the rules are Insider trading but is not relevant to this discussion. Churning if the person is buying/selling their own items while on limit in an attempt to change prices, and painting the tape in some cases.
Well umm theres a big sticky thread made entirely to target price manipulation.


If any of you went to school for psychology this is an example of admittance

"Now show where in the rules does it say these types of manipulation are against the rules. The only ones that are against the rules are Insider trading but is not relevant ."

Any of these types of manipulation? LOL u jist admitted this was a manip wow read with much attention people, truth cannot be hidden


By definition they are manipulation, what I was asking was if they are against the rules not if they are manipulation.


And those rules apply only to forums. There is nothing in the "in game" rules against manipulation of markets.

13-Jan-2018 17:08:08

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