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Genocide!

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Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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It's a subject that's been on so many of our minds, as new lore continues to be revealed about each of the gods. I've decided to tally up all the acts of genocide each of the gods have committed, direct or otherwise, and the winner will be named Gielinor's Top Genocidal Maniac.

For this thread, acts that have driven races to near extinction will also be counted, and only actions of living gods will be taken into account (Sorry Bandos, no posthumous prize for you). Because this can be seen as subjective, feel free to provide your input if you disagree, or PM me some strongly written hatemail.

Let's get this show on the road.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 00:51:42

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Zaros
: No acts of genocide as far as I’m aware of, I suppose we can give him -1 points for contributing so wonderfully to the creation of a new race of beings, the Nihil. If he succeeds in saving the Illujanka, he might find himself sitting with -2 points, an enviable score indeed.

Edit: It was pointed out that Zaros may have been responsible for the widespread extinction of the Auspah, so it is with a heavy heart I must give him him a point.

Seren
: For posing as Mah and introducing the barbaric ritual practices to the 'Children of Mah', which led to them slowly killing off most of their species, Seren is awarded one genocide point. Not to mention how her actions also affected the Cywir in a very poor way, but since the degradation of a subset of elves doesn’t meet my definition of genocide, no further points will be awarded.


Saradomin
: Oooo boy buckle up, this might take awhile. For his participation in the Naragun god wars, and very clear acts of violence against the Naragi, such as the razing of an entire city because they were opposed to blue man worship, contributing to their entire eradication as a whole, Saradomin is awarded one genocide point.

In Sliske’s endgame it is also revealed that Saradomin engaged in the total eradication of a warring native species on the planet of New Domina, and Garlandia’s objection to war is what got her plucked by the wing ripper in chief himself. For his actions on New Domina, Saradomin is awarded a second genocide point.

But wait, there’s more. Saradomin’s constant warring on Gielinor during the third age led the entire centaur race to practical extinction, with this being the reason he sought the wand in DoC, so he could revive them (and possibly create a new army out of them.) If he succeeds in bringing back the Centaurs, I will consider removing a genocide point from his tally, but until that happens he’s stuck with a third one.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 00:51:54 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:27:16 by Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Armadyl
: No acts of genocide as far as I can tell, but he does seem to be harboring a rather dark secret about his past. I doubt it’s anything as serious as race extermination, but who knows? Until further lore is revealed Armadyl will not be awarded any genocide points at this time.

Zamorak
: His role in the Infernus civil war led to the Avernic to overthrowing their Cthonian masters and slaughtering them. While everyone was probably left better off with the Cthonians removed, far be it from me to make exceptions to the rules, so I must begrudgingly award Zamorak a genocide point.

Along with this, Zamorak’s infamous actions at Forinthy left the entire continent razed and the god wars brought about to a swift end by Guthix. For his role in the utter destruction of the Aviansie here, Zamorak is awarded a second genocide point (something he doesn’t seem too upset about).
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 00:51:59 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 00:57:18 by Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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The Final Tally! (Updated)

Zaros
: 0

Seren
: 1

Saradomin
: 3

Armadyl
: 0

Zamorak
: 2

Which makes Saradomin Gielinor's Top Genocidal Maniac! The score is subject to change as new lore is discovered, and with two new gods on their way things could definitely be shaken up by new reveals.

Did I miss any known acts of genocide, disagree with any of my assessments? Comment below!
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 00:52:03 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:27:42 by Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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The Mather1 said:
You've forgotten the Dragonkin, who should be awarded a point for the eradication of the Kethsians.

I was only examining acts by gods, but that definitely counts as genocide, just not divinely inspired genocide.

Either way, good point, those Dragonkin have done some naughty things.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 01:04:32

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Raxxess said:
As always your posts are cringy.

How does Zaros have no genocide but you count the centaurs as genocide? Like how is what happened to the Ilujanka any different than what happened to the centaurs? Also how do you not count Loarnabs crew if you count other races on New Domina? He created the Nihil and then stopped creating them

Not cringy enough to stop you from replying sadly. Regardless, it's very clear that Zaros did not directly lead to their infertility, just failed to stop it.

And when you take a peaceful race like the Centaurs, and throw them into a pointless war lasting thousands of years until their numbers are depleted, that makes you responsible. Saradomin wants to act like everyone's daddy, and that means he needs to own what happened to them. In DoC he even voices regret so it's clear he takes responsibility for what happened, but regret doesn't negate your genocide point. Make another thread if you hate this one so much.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 01:08:28

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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@Vardan

Once again, as the individual in charge of the centaurs, Saradomin holds the most responsibility, and as I said previously, I'm not looking at outright acts of genocide, but also indirect actions that led to the extermination of a race. You're free to disagree that it shouldn't count, but since the outcomes are all the same it's not an issue for me.

I'm holding all the gods to the same standards, just like Zamorak didn't directly exterminate the Cthonians, and Seren believed she was helping the Mahjarrat. Whether these actions were justified or not is up for the debate, the outcomes are not.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:00:58

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Wahisietel said:
You don't seem to know what the definition of genocide is. The definition of genocide is: "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group."

Seren teaching the Mahjarrat how to perform the rituals is not genocide - they were complicit she was not trying to wipe them out.

Saradomin destroying one city and inadvertently causing a God War by drawing other gods to Naragun with Crown Archival is not genocide - Saradomin wants people to worship him, he isn't going to wipe out a race for no reason. Tuska and her crew were probably responsible for more Naragi deaths.

Even Zamorak nuking Forinthry is arguably not genocide - he wasn't specifically targeting anyone besides Saradomin, Armadyl and Bandos, and was probably not even thinking about the consequences of his actions - he was just being desperate.

The only actual possible genocide known to be committed by any living god is whatever race Saradomin and the Icyene were at war with. And even then it's IMO unlikely it was an outright genocide - it more likely that the race's numbers were crippled by the war, and those few remaining were not enough to form a sustainable breeding population. We don't even know if the race was sentient.

I said up front what the criteria was, and it is my view that all previous mentioned acts led to the extermination or near extinction of a race. Even 'near extinction' isn't technically genocide but you're free to nitpick technicalities and offer various definitions to interpret, but that's not the purpose of the thread.

If we stuck to strict interpretation it wouldn't be as fun, and if Sliske gets to set the rules for his own game then by golly so do I.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:04:19 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 02:29:20 by Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
You should give Zaros a point for all the races he tortured to create the Nehil in the first place. He specifically targeted winged humanoids, which should count as an ethnic group. That should even it out at no points lost or won.

Seren's actions to the Mahjarrat should not count as genocide. She did not wipe them out. On the contrary, she actually prevented them from dying out or being destroyed by Mah.

Saradomin getting the centaurs killed should not count either. You're right about the others he killed, though.

You gave Armadyl a point, which he doesn't really deserve. We have no idea what happened, and can only assume that he killed a god or charged himself up with an Elder Artifact (Sliske mentions he has a secret weapon, and Armadyl swears he will never use it again.)

You're right about Zamorak.

Torturing and mutilating a few beings from several species is nowhere near eradicating them entirely. Definitely not nice, but not genocide.

Seren's actions caused the Mahjarrat to slowly kill themselves off until they were nothing but a remnant. Even the Mahjarrat charge her with the near destruction of their species. She believed what she was doing was right, but it doesn't negate the consequences.

I've previously defended the Centaur's inclusion and as far as Armadyl goes, you must have misread, I have him at 0.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:10:57

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Once again, as the individual in charge of the centaurs, Saradomin holds the most responsibility


Why isn't Armadyl responsible for the Aviansie?

Why isn't Zaros responsible for the Dragon Riders or Cthonians?

Why isn't Zamorak responsible for the Mahjarrat?

Zamorak shoulders more responsibility for the Aviansie.

Zaros did not cause the riders' infertility, nor did he have any role in the Cthonians being overthrown.

Not really sure how Zamorak can be blamed for the Mahjarrat's present condition...
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:12:25

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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Cthris said:
It might be worth mentioning that in the Zaros above the lore podcast Mod Osborne said that Zaros went to great lengths to ensure that Char was the only one left... This suggests genocide to me.

Seren also caused the demise of the mahserrat, chellonmah, and another third tribe I can't remember. (Mahserrat weren't even complicit in rituals btw).

Bandos made a ton of races lol. Pretty sure he should be in the lead for least genocides based on your logic with Zaros. :P

Ooooo that's very interesting about Zaros, I'll have to include it.

Because we aren't sure how many tribes were affected by Seren's actions, or if they fully constituted unique races, I'll just make them a single category as 'Children of Mah.

And Bandos, bless his stony corpse, is dead so I didn't include him in any tally. :p
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:24:59

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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@Fishy

I think the distinction you made between how the Aviansie and the Centaurs were wiped out is important, and it factored into my assessment.

A large part of Infernus was independently controlled by the Cthonians, not Zaros, and on top of that, Zamorak's actions are independent of Zaros'.

And I considered adding Tumeken to the list for his incineration of the desert and a large amount of the Mahjarrat but even I found that a stretch. I can be accused of bending the rules and terms a little, but your own assessments would snap them outright.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:34:02

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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@Fishy

Once again there is a distinction between how the two races met their end. One was from constant warring at the command of their god (the same logic that would make Bandos responsible for genocide) and the other was the result of an individual literally nuking them all.

Armadyl has partial responsibility, but as far as who is primarily responsible, I think a case for Zamorak is much more compelling.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:51:14

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Once again there is a distinction between how the two races met their end. One was from constant warring at the command of their god (the same logic that would make Bandos responsible for genocide) and the other was the result of an individual literally nuking them all.


See Hazel's post above about how Armadyl brought the entire race into Forinthry. You really don't think Armadyl is responsible for that?

I read it.

A final time. Armadyl bears partial responsibility, as he was the one commanding them, but Zamorak was the one who most directly caused their destruction.

Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.
Armadyl is indirectly responsible for the Aviansie.
Zamorak is directly responsible for the Aviansie.
Edge goes to Zamorak.

If I wanted to be completely fair, I could give different point values based off direct and indirect actions similar to Sliske's point system, but that's more complicated than I care to make a simple thread that is more or less tongue in cheek.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 02:58:04 - Last edited on 22-Dec-2016 03:00:31 by Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

Unicornz pwn

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NotFishing said:
Unicornz pwn said:
Saradomin is indirectly responsible for the Centaurs.
No one was more directly responsible.


That isn't fair. You're basically dumping all the blame on Saradomin's shoulders because you don't know who really was responsible.

If someone robs a bank and gets away with it, you don't lock up the bank owner because he handed over the money.

That's a really poor analogy.
"Ego Te Provoco."

The Hooded Zarosian

Lorehound Extraordinaire

22-Dec-2016 03:31:31

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