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Gozz
Nov Member 2018

Gozz

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I stumbled upon this Reddit thread about Jagex speaking before the UK parliament discussing immersive and addictive technologies (mainly MTX).

I'll be updating the thread when I get home, but thought you'd all be interested

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/b8kymy/jagex_appears_before_uk_parliament_inquiry/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Edit: I believe you can find the video at https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/news/immersive-technologies-evidence-17-194/
Please remember that the forum is not for debating. It is for echoing views only. If you see someone opposing someone else's views, please report this so it can be dealt with.

02-Apr-2019 19:10:50 - Last edited on 02-Apr-2019 19:54:23 by Gozz

Blackwing
Nov Member 2012

Blackwing

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Damn, you beat me to it, I was gonna post this as well. :P

All in all, it's a very sad showcase from Jagex. They constantly tried to reject themselves as a gambling business, even though Treasure Hunter is a predatory gambling simulator, just not legally defined as gambling. And they didn't even have the guts to be honest and admit that if people are going to hit that 5k/month MTX payment cap, they'd so with Treasure Hunter and lamps/stars, not with some cosmetics. They pretty much tried to hide Treasure Hunter from the parliament, whilst shoving it in our faces. Average spendings of a paying user was also hidden.

In regards to mental health, their excuse was that they're hosting twice the charity events now, but what does it matter when you're actively creating mental health issues with gambling addictions born from Treasure Hunter? There'd less need for those charities to exist if companies like Jagex didn't have such disgusting schemes going on.

Some of the devs at Jagex clearly love their job, and it's great to see their passion, it's a damn shame that their work is ruined by these shitty practices. :/
The Runescape Witcher
|| "Beware of the one called the Man of Glass. Seek salvation in the glass that can't be broken."

02-Apr-2019 19:25:47

Gozz
Nov Member 2018

Gozz

Posts: 6,484Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blackwing said:
Damn, you beat me to it, I was gonna post this as well. :P

All in all, it's a very sad showcase from Jagex. They constantly tried to reject themselves as a gambling business, even though Treasure Hunter is a predatory gambling simulator, just not legally defined as gambling. And they didn't even have the guts to be honest and admit that if people are going to hit that 5k/month MTX payment cap, they'd so with Treasure Hunter and lamps/stars, not with some cosmetics. They pretty much tried to hide Treasure Hunter from the parliament, whilst shoving it in our faces. Average spendings of a paying user was also hidden.

In regards to mental health, their excuse was that they're hosting twice the charity events now, but what does it matter when you're actively creating mental health issues with gambling addictions born from Treasure Hunter? There'd less need for those charities to exist if companies like Jagex didn't have such disgusting schemes going on.

Some of the devs at Jagex clearly love their job, and it's great to see their passion, it's a damn shame that their work is ruined by these shitty practices. :/
I've been trying to find a full transcript on the website for UK parliament but haven't seen it yet.

From reading through that Reddit post it is quite upsetting. I'm not sure how much of it is an attempt to persuade others that gambling doesn't happen in runscape to prevent the laws regarding gambling from being relevant and how much was persuading others that gambling doesn't exist in Runescape to make the game look better (and Jagex look better).

I couldn't have said it any better than you've said it here though. I'm glad others are interested in this too.
Please remember that the forum is not for debating. It is for echoing views only. If you see someone opposing someone else's views, please report this so it can be dealt with.

02-Apr-2019 19:59:32

Dilbert2001
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2006

Dilbert2001

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OP, what are you trying to discuss other than just posting a link?

I see Jagex talked about different data, ranging from GDPR, how much an average player play a day, how much an average player pay, mental health and game addition etc. The discussion was in many different areas.

Since I don't know what exactly you tried to "discuss", I'll just give my opinion on things I found interesting.

First, on the average, a player plays 2.5 hours a day. That's like 4-5 times an average gamer in the world spend a day across all the online games. Yes, we know there are bots... a lot of them... therefore the so called "player online" counter is far from accurate and definitely not the total "playerbase" of Jagex's games. ;)

Average age is 22. Only 2% is under 18. OMG!!! I never thought Runescape players are so mature. Perhaps they are all eligible to be Jmods. :P:P:P

Average player played for 8 years. Unsurprisingly, there are a lot of grandfathered players. That's why the subscription part of the business model still somewhat works in Runescape.

There is a 5k per month spending cap per player. Perhaps that's why sometime some players said they can't spend more money.

Q: How many players spend 1k/month? Is it a lot?
A: No numbers to hand. Not a lot."


Q: How do people spend 5k/month?
A: Cosmetics.

Q: What determine the price differences (among the cosmetics)?
A: Aesthetics/animation. E.g. a cape."


That's somewhat interesting since although TH brings in the most money for Jagex, not a lot of players actually spend over 1k/month. It seems like a lot of small spenders and just a few whales. On the other hand, even though players don't buy many Runecoins, there are still players who spend big on cosmetics.

Only 25 players complained about addiction. Interesting... Why so few in reality but seemingly a lot form the RSOF? Perhaps all of them are from the RSOF. :D:D:D

02-Apr-2019 20:16:07

Moneybucks
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Moneybucks

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I mean.. what have we actually learnt from this?
Corporations focus on self interest at the expense of others.
Jagex is a corporation.

None of this is a surprise to me. It rings similarly to the recent discussions and committees on data privacy, involving corps like Facebook, for example.

Every corp is expected to work within the law, but past that they're not going to hamstring their own capability to generate revenue for the sake of protecting their customerbase from themselves. Not unless failing to do so comes at significant, and immediate, disadvantage. The whole point of corps is to exploit the market for gain...

People should, therefore, take responsibility for themselves, but the thing about government is it's there to protect people as well. Parliament is a slow, lumbering beast, but once woken, it can, and does, act and bring forward legislation against abusive corps and industries. If the methods that games companies in the UK use to monetise players or derive revenue from them is deemed abusive, then regulation and/or legislation will be sure to follow.

I'm just surprised they're talking about this at all.. I suppose this is the result of the recent parliamentary focus on online safety combining with the focus on fixed odds gambling..
Moneybucks

Newly returned to Runescape? Seeking a community? Join - mid-high level social/chilling Skilling and PvM clan. PM me for info!

02-Apr-2019 21:57:18

Dilbert2001
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2006

Dilbert2001

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Moneybucks said:
I'm just surprised they're talking about this at all.. I suppose this is the result of the recent parliamentary focus on online safety combining with the focus on fixed odds gambling..


Nope. This is the exact description of this Jagex participation in a UK Parliament session:

"How do the design features of games affect the way people play? RuneScape game designers give evidence to DCMS Committee

Watch Parliament TV: Immersive and addictive technologies
Inquiry: Immersive and addictive technologies
Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Witnesses
Tuesday 2 April, The Thatcher Room, Portcullis House

At 10.30am

Neil McClarty, VP Growth & Product Services, Jagex
Kelvin Plomer, Director of Player Experience, Jagex
About the session
How do the design features of games affect the way people play? The Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee will discuss Massively Multiplayer Online Role-playing Games (MMORPGs) with a UK-based company Jagex, who is responsible for one of the most popular games in the genre, RuneScape, as it continues its inquiry into immersive and addictive technologies.

The Committee has received evidence indicating that certain design features of MMORPGs can make them particularly hard for gamers to retain control over their levels of gaming or spending. MPs will ask Jagex about the monetisation strategies used in their free-to-play games; any interventions they deploy to help people retain control over playing or spending on online games; and the collection of data about players in games."


First, they are talking about MMORPGs, not Jagex. Jagex was there as a WITNESS to provide EVIDENCE. :D

Second, they are trying to "help people retain control over playing or spending on onlines games, and the collection of data about players in games". Nothing about gambling specifically there.

02-Apr-2019 22:19:08 - Last edited on 02-Apr-2019 22:20:18 by Dilbert2001

Dilbert2001
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2006

Dilbert2001

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"Scope of the inquiry
The inquiry will examine the development of immersive technologies such as virtual and augmented reality, and the potential impact these could have in the worlds of sport, entertainment and news. The inquiry will also look at how the addictive nature of some technologies can affect users engagement with gaming and social media, particularly amongst younger people."


https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/digital-culture-media-and-sport-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/immersive-technologies/

The inquiry clearly covers not just MMORPGs, not just games, but also sport, entertainment and news. News is "addictive gambling" too? That will be really exciting. :D:D:D

Witness(es)
Neil McClarty, VP, Growth and Product Services, Jagex
Kelvin Plomer, Director of Player Experience, Jagex

02-Apr-2019 22:29:21

Blackwing
Nov Member 2012

Blackwing

Posts: 39,438Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Gozz said:
From reading through that Reddit post it is quite upsetting. I'm not sure how much of it is an attempt to persuade others that gambling doesn't happen in runscape to prevent the laws regarding gambling from being relevant and how much was persuading others that gambling doesn't exist in Runescape to make the game look better (and Jagex look better).

I'd say it's the former: Jagex is afraid of potential legislation to follow from all the controversy caused by TH-like lootbox systems. How else are they going to take advantage of people with gambling addictions, without having to be licensed as a casino? :P
The Runescape Witcher
|| "Beware of the one called the Man of Glass. Seek salvation in the glass that can't be broken."

02-Apr-2019 22:44:54

Dilbert2001
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2006

Dilbert2001

Posts: 8,507Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Blackwing said:
Gozz said:
From reading through that Reddit post it is quite upsetting. I'm not sure how much of it is an attempt to persuade others that gambling doesn't happen in runscape to prevent the laws regarding gambling from being relevant and how much was persuading others that gambling doesn't exist in Runescape to make the game look better (and Jagex look better).

I'd say it's the former: Jagex is afraid of potential legislation to follow from all the controversy caused by TH-like lootbox systems. How else are they going to take advantage of people with gambling addictions, without having to be licensed as a casino? :P


Perhaps you should show us how this study of Immersive and addictive technologies inquiry with witnesses from Public Policy International among other sport, entertainment and news groups have turned into gambling and TH first. :D

02-Apr-2019 22:50:55

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