Forums

Game Integrity - Umbral Chests

Quick find code: 15-16-468-66081095

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
TLDR - Please remove umbral chests from the Twitch Prime offer and never bring them back.

---

From today's news post:

Original message details are unavailable.
TWITCH PRIME
Love is in the air this Valentine’s Day, and we intend to prove our devotion to Twitch Prime members by offering the most precious of gifts – the Twitch Prime Valentines Pack!

Starting tomorrow (Tuesday February 5th), Twitch Prime users who link their RuneScape account will get 14 days of free membership to both RuneScape and Old School, plus:

The exclusive Amara Outfit
The exclusive Chinchompa Plushie
2 Umbral Chests (guaranteed super-rare prizes)

15 Treasure Hunter Keys
40 Hearts of Ice
200 RuneCoins


In case you don't know what umbral chests give, their loot includes:

1. 200m gp (+ other items that can be sold for gp)
2. Combat equipment T70-T80
3. Various exp items (exp lamps, proteans, silverhawk feathers etc.)

The issue:

All of the above are harmful to the game's integrity; 200m gp handouts add to the game's inflation, combat equipment handouts devalue the content wherein you'd normally earn those items, and exp handouts ruin the hiscores and powercreep the game to a point where everyone has access to everything, defeating the point of earning something exclusive for your hard work (e.g. a moneymaker that is going to be much less effective when everyone can do it, due to such increased supply).

The solution:

Remove the umbral chests from the game permanently. All they do is harm the game's economy in various ways (depending on which rewards you get from them), and encourage the player who used the chests to be lazy (since they were given such a handout).
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 12:10:55

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
EDIT: As of 18/February/2019, umbral chests are now also given for each 450 key package you buy, with no limit as to how many times you can buy them. This just further adds to the damage: please removal the umbral chests, Jagex! :(
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 12:11:07 - Last edited on 18-Feb-2019 11:06:58 by Blackwing

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
I mean - checking that list for tradeables: https://runescape.wiki/w/Umbral_chest

- 200m are something that exists in theory - but that's it. It could be awarded, but the number of players who will gain it will be extremely low. I mean big deal if someone wins that, a promotion that spills out small amounts of cash is certainly more damaging. Even ingame content that spills out cash drops (either literally or in the form of alchables) is likely to be more damaging for the economy.
- The remainder are tradeable tokens (which are worthless anyway) and silverhawk feathers and springs. Big deal I guess...

This of course is just respecting you're actually getting a tradeable and not some cosmetic you just haven't obtained in its initial promotion - or even a junk reward like proteans or rare item tokens.

It's really sad to see how some people have come to excuse bad game design under the guise that "well <something else> is more damaging than this"; it doesn't change the fact that this is harmful to the game too and should be fixed.

Not everyone is going to win the 200m prize for example, sure, but if you remember from the last time these chests were in play, several people still did win it, resulting in billions of gp being injected to the game for no good reason. Jagex's social media team was even stupid enough to promote someone winning the 200m prize on tutorial island as a good thing, even though it just makes the game look like a joke.

And remember: everything adds up over time. This isn't the first time Jagex has released umbral chests, and if it doesn't stop, over the years dozens of billions of gp will be injected to the game, even though such injections had no good reason to be there. Money should be earned, not handed out like candy. If you hand it out like it's worth nothing, it's going to be worth nothing.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 12:34:27

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Nibbles Z said:
Wouldn't be so bad if it were just cosmetic TH items really.. Idk, I feel the integrity of the normal-mode game has already been significantly compromised at this point anyway.

Would be nice if they could tone it back a little though, but otherwise ironman or OSRS seems to be the safe zone from it.

Even if you play an ironman or OSRS, you still shouldn't accept this -- if Jagex stops caring about the game integrity elsewhere (regular mode RS3), what's to stop them from spreading that bad game design to RS3 ironman mode or even OSRS?

Hell, RS3 ironmen were given ridiculous bonuses with the recent winter weekends, which previously wasn't possible; just goes to show that if you accept bad game design, things will get progressively worse and worse.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 12:37:33

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
My point is not 'Not everyone is going to win the 200m prize', my point is it will barely be won at all. My point is take the valkyrie feathers promotion for instance - 500 feathers are a fairly good chance at 10k - and still a decently enough one for 100k - and a chance still way higher (and I mean by more than just 200x times the odds) to win 1m.

Second big difference - the amount of players who will be able to claim the umbral chests will be much, much lower - and those who'll get it will get exactly 2 chances.

I dare to say those two factors alone will be the reason why Valkyrie feathers will generate significantly more coins.

I agree that the Valkyrie event was bad for the game, I even made a thread about it, but with all this said, how does bashing the Valkyrie event justify these chests? Both are bad for the game, both should be fixed. It doesn't matter which one is more damaging to the game, because both of them damage the game. And everything adds up; when you have enough many smaller damages, eventually they make up a bigger damage than an individual instance.


Rikornak said:
Third: Are you salty as well if a new player gets and does his first hard treasure trail and draws out a dye from it? I mean - they must get an unjustified amount of coins (even though it won't be generated) as well for no other reason than sheer luck.

No. Treasure trails are an immersive part of the game, where you work to solve the clue and get a reward for doing so, which is sometimes the jackpot. With these chests, you don't even need to leave the tutorial island to win 200m gp, like one individual proved in the previous promotion. You don't play the game to earn the chests, you just buy Twitch Prime.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 13:11:44

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
To be honest - if you're so afraid of the economy, gold sinks and so on you should ask for getting most cash drops and stuff that solely exists to be alched getting removed. That will have much more impact than those chests. If you think it actually is fine and the game economy is able to handle this, it should also be able to handle the influx of some one-digit billion amount of coins as well.

I have asked for many problems like this to be fixed in the past, I still do as you can see from this, and I will continue to do so -- but there's only so much time I can spend on asking stuff. This is a simple issue to fix, so it was an easy thing for me to post. Not every issue is as simple as this.

Please stop excusing bad game design because there are other issues too; if something is good for the game, you can justify it by it being good for the game, rather than "well it's not as bad as <something else>".
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 13:15:13

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
I mean well: Let's get more constructive on your idea then:

- Let the chests just award some discontinued TH cosmetic you do not have. No coins, no tradeables, no protean junk, no rare item tokens junk. Calling out to have them outright removed also just is destructive.
- Secondary reward pool (if you got all items) could be tradeables (tokens, feathers, springs - those do not hurt anybody - they're not even influxing coins)) or useables (proteans, rare item tokens)

Well, this is more constructive it is true, but while you're now suggesting a rebalance for the chests, you still haven't answered the important question:

What good do these chests add to the game that they should continue to exist at all?

Remember, everything that the chests contain or could contain (if we started rebalancing them), could just as well come from actual gameplay (some already do, with much healthier balance than just giving a random tutorial island account 200m gp). Games are meant to be played and to be fun (so that you actually want to play the game); if you just hand out stuff without having to play the game, people get bored and demotivated to actually play the game, instead expecting more handouts in the future.

Now, regarding what you suggested: discontinued items, as their name implies, are meant to be discontinued; if you bring them back, they're no longer discontinued, defeating their purpose of being discontinued.

But even if we talked about non-discontinued cosmetics; why should they come from a random chest handout (that doesn't require playing the game), when they could be rewarded for actually playing the game?

And regarding the exp rewards; again, handing out them does affect others players too. When other people also have the levels to access level-exclusive content (like some moneymakers), said content becomes less exclusive. When it becomes less exclusive, it devalues the content (increased supply).
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 14:24:20

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Nibbles Z said:
Blackwing said:
Nibbles Z said:
Wouldn't be so bad if it were just cosmetic TH items really.. Idk, I feel the integrity of the normal-mode game has already been significantly compromised at this point anyway.

Would be nice if they could tone it back a little though, but otherwise ironman or OSRS seems to be the safe zone from it.

Even if you play an ironman or OSRS, you still shouldn't accept this -- if Jagex stops caring about the game integrity elsewhere (regular mode RS3), what's to stop them from spreading that bad game design to RS3 ironman mode or even OSRS?

Hell, RS3 ironmen were given ridiculous bonuses with the recent winter weekends, which previously wasn't possible; just goes to show that if you accept bad game design, things will get progressively worse and worse.


Blackwing, I'm fully agreeing with you on this man. I'm merely just stating at this point it's been going on so long it just feels we've already lost.

Cheers! I get that feeling, and it's not always easy for me to stay motivated about caring for the game's integrity either, but Runescape would otherwise be a pretty damn good game if not for things like this, so IMO it's still worth it. :P
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 14:30:42

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
The thing is: They try to promote their twitch channel. If we come to the (exclusive) rewards - which I personally see a few leagues more problematic than a few coins - the issue rests a few layers deeper: TH wastes a lot of potential ingame rewards on promotions with the rewards being gone for an undefined span of time afterwards. I mean - TH doesn't need to be as cancerous as it is - if the rewards would be added to some ingame content afterwards (like they did with the hanto set for the arc for instance) - it doesn't even need to be instantly, just a few weeks or months afterwards - would it be really that bad, that some players have bought them? If those chests are just another option to reclaim those rewards - what would be so bad about them?

Yes, it would be that bad. Players who bought them would get access immediately to content that should've been open for everyone to earn via actual gameplay. Without even playing the game. (How could you ever justify paying to skip a part of the game as a successful thing? It just goes to show that your game is so boring that you'd rather pay to skip parts of it.)

---

Regarding the second paragraph; I didn't understand what you were trying to say, so I skipped it for now. If you want to try and explain it again, I'll re-read it.


Rikornak said:
Wouldn't it be better to focus their efforts solely on permanent or recurring stuff? *snip for space*

I have a feeling that this had something to do with the previous paragraph that I didn't understand, but I'm just gonna treat it as a separate thing for now:

IMO, content should be prioritized as follows:

Permanent > New temporary > Recycled temporary

Majority of content should be permanent, but something temporary on occasion is fine, if it's a) interesting, b) completable in a day and c) lasts for ~3 weeks. Recycled events tend to become boring copy-paste filler.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 15:14:32

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Big Storms said:
Of course I do not think that having extra gp and experience pumped into the games as freebies is a good thing (which is a core part of MTX these days sadly), but at the same time I share the view that experience and gp have lost a lot of their value. Granted, inflation and gp sinks somewhat manage to keep the economy going (but just look at the prices of end tier equipment, reaching the literal ceiling of what is possible with normal currency), but experience in particular has become a bit of a joke.

So yes, I would wish less of these kind of things in game. But no, I do not think it would fix the damage it has already created (only preventing further damage), nor am I naïve enough to think that Jagex would give up these methods of gaining revenue.

Simply put, this is why I see no reason to aim at getting any 120s or max gp, instead preferring to complete other achievements that can not be bought.

Having core parts of the game like that being jokes isn't sustainable in the long term; yeah, it won't be easy to fix all the damage that has been caused, but either the game is going to keep dying or we'll start fixing the problems as soon as possible to avoid even more damage being inflicted - your choice.

Regarding how realistic the change is; the only thing that's certain and will ever be certain is that if you give up, nothing will change. If you keep trying, something could change. Do you think that EA's FIFA loot box ban on Belgium would've happened if everyone against the loot boxes had just given up for example? There's always a chance, and the more morale and support you build up, the better the chance becomes.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 15:28:53

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
I wouldn't fully see it like this. I mean let's take the Hanto outfit for instance. It was absolutely unfeasible to obtain in the promotion as it required some three digit amount of keys within of five days (I mean fine - there are some players who just ask Mr. Wallet for a favour). Certainly among the most vile kinds of promotions Jagex ever... ever... ever came up. And just for commentary - I am more than happy they've just used this kind of promotion only once again - and seemingly discarded it now. My point is - they used that set to further extending the reward pool of the arc. Extending - not solely basing it on it. All in all - I wouldn't call it enriching if I had to grind out m amount of currency, instead of m-n - as long as it doesn't skip the whole content.

I don't get why you make this so complicated; if the game is fun and designed properly, you'll want to play it in full and not pay to skip some of it. If you feel like paying to skip, the game has failed to keep you interested. And Jagex intentionally designs the MTX events to be boring to grind through, so that you'll want to pay to skip it. That's how MTX operates, or else it wouldn't sell.

In all honesty, I feel like we're starting to go off-topic here, but I'll give it this one go at least.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 16:23:07

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Regarding the other paragraphs: there's a huge difference when it comes to temporary events how I'd make them, and how Jagex typically makes them in RS3.

1. Jagex adds both cosmetics and useful items to them, I'd only add cosmetics so that you'd never miss anything crucial.

2. Jagex expects you to grind something for dozens of hours to complete the event, whereas I'd make a one-off completion like an interesting story that you can complete in ~45 minutes (which pretty much everyone can do in a single day).

3. Jagex's events vary from lasting for 72 hours to a few weeks, whereas I'd always make it last for ~3 weeks, to give plenty of time for people to choose when to complete the event.

4. Jagex keeps making (or rather copy-pasting) events on a constant basis, whereas I'd only make a few per year, so that when something does come up, it'd be quality over quantity.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

04-Feb-2019 16:25:40

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
yggdrsil said:
honestly it is like the t4 dice and dyes from quest shop for prizes(except smaller chance of good pay out) + 200m is small compared to back when it first was on th(sof back then) also most if not all the t70-80 gear is useless except maybe the lucky sgs cause of smithing being able to make t85 stat armor and weapons, you cannot augment lucky items anyway so purpose to use them over anything you can smith other than weapon specs does not exist

All you're doing here is demonstrating how RS3 has no healthy early/midgame; finding excuses to let bad game design slip by doesn't turn it into good game design. If the chests were actually good for the game, you'd be able to explain why instead of finding excuses for the opposite. But you can't, because as long as Jagex encourages players to skip the early and midgame, there'll be no early and midgame.

Yeah, umbral chests might give less than the magical dice, but umbral chests don't require you to play the game at all to get them, while the dice require completion of many quests. And the dice are still bad for the game's health even though they're behind questing.


Barnabis said:
Basically Jagex is trying to lure people from Twitch into their game and give them a ton of crap hoping they will spend more money. If you already have twitch prime, no big deal. Though it is questionable marketing that they won't share any of these with existing members or VIP customers. This is where I've got a problem with these kind of updates.

There's that exclusivity issue too, yes, but even if all members got all those benefits, those benefits still wouldn't be healthy for the game; quite the opposite in fact, since even more cash, T70-T80 gear and exp boosts would enter the game for no good reason.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

05-Feb-2019 09:39:23

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mario x_x said:
Those weapons are useless.

They're useless in the endgame, but not in the midgame; I get that many people are maxed already, but if the game is to have a future, we need to start fixing the early and midgame. And handing out midgame combat gear just like that isn't going to help, quite the opposite.


Mario x_x said:
200m gp drop is insanely rare.

For an individual, yes. Overall though, several 200m gp prizes will be won, resulting in billions of gp being injected to the game -- for no good reason. Your post proves this too: instead of explaining why 200m gp handouts are a good thing, you focus on excusing them because they're rare.


Mario x_x said:
So what if you get free 50k xp on 99+ skill??

"So what?" You seriously think that getting a quick exp boost like that without any gameplay involved is healthy for the game? Even if you ignore such bad game design, the fact is that everything adds up over time. Exp handouts like those add up to 500k, 5m and so on bonus exp as more and more of them are introduced. They need to be removed, since they only harm the game.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

05-Feb-2019 16:12:58

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
How high would you rate the likelyhood to have one of those 'lucky' items end up in the hands of somebody actually able to make use of them? Even if they're lucky enough to gain two of them not covering the same slot - that's still the majority of equipment they have to get in some other way. We are talking about equipment that can be easily be surpassed by simple smithables since a few weeks now. Stuff you could buy for a few hundred k of gp - if you're not an ironman. But guess what? Those can't even get lucky equipment.

First and foremost, since the question is always ignored, I ask again: what good do these chests add to the game's health that they should remain? Why should they exist? Your posts only focus on belittling the damage, rather than explaining why the chests should be a thing in the first place.

Now to answer your question: not very high, but do you know why that is? Because there is no healthy early and midgame in RS3. In order for the game to have a healthy future, it needs to have those, but even if we fix the issues that prevent the game from having a healthy early and midgame, it'll still be ruined by illogical handouts like these. It doesn't make any sense, neither in the common sense or balance-wise, that even a level 3 account on tutorial island can get T70-T80 equipment without having played the game at all.

I'm not sure why people like you are so defensive of bad game design, I suspect it's either to do with not wanting to accept the fact that the game has issues or that you want to benefit from the chests yourself, but in any case, if you care about the game's long term survival, you have to wake up and realize that while some issues don't appear to be much on an individual level, they still add up to do much damage in the bigger picture of things.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

06-Feb-2019 13:00:35

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
To grab that one again: What damage was caused again by a few billions influxed into an economy likely featuring cash amounts somewhat higher than that - doesn't matter if we're talking about sextillions, septillions, octillions - add more zeros if you want. A few more billions are irrelevant. Prove the damage it actually causes.

Common sense is the proof: do you really not grasp the idea that even if something appears small on its own, when put together with many other small things, it all builds up to one big thing? ELITE STACK pointed this out on his reply as well: even if only 50 players win the 200m gp prize only once, that's already another 10b gp added to the game for no logical reason.

Combine the umbral chests with other gp injections like Treasure Hunter, magical dice and cash bags from event mystery boxes, and the gp added to the game from them altogether compounds into trillions, quadrillions etc. It shouldn't be so hard to understand, really.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

06-Feb-2019 13:06:20

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
Okay - let's just assume the amount of coins in the economy is a decillion (1^33) plus or minus a few more trillions, let's say the umbral chests will spill exactly a trillion (1^12) - I know it's ridicously overstated - but let's just be extremely generous with the calculation. Calculate the percentage and tell me if could even cause a ripple in the ocean.

Even if the amount of coins already in the economy is scaled down to let's say sextillions or quintillions (I highly doubt it could be much lower than that), the effect isn't feelable - otherwise the whole economy has to go bonkers each time something like this happens.

Hold on a second, where the hell did those numbers come from? Unless you can back up those numbers more reliably than just "let's just assume some numbers", I'm gonna stick to facts, and to my knowledge the fact is that we don't know how much gp is changing hands in the economy, because Jagex doesn't like to share us such data.

And like I said before (gonna repeat this again because it seems to me like you overlooked it again), everything adds up, so even if you do manage to fetch reliable numbers from somewhere, consider the following before drawing conclusions:

1. When something by itself recurs, it adds up itself over time. E.g. with these umbral chests, each time they're rerun, even if just 5 people win 200m gp once each every time they're rerun, a billion gp is added to the game each and every time. In fact, I don't think any of the issues are static in nature, as in that they don't recur, because pretty much all of them do.

2. Different things also add up over time to each other. E.g. umbral chests, Treasure Hunter and magical dice might not be enormous damage on their own, but when combined, they easily become one, and by removing them all, it could very well result to a clear difference.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

07-Feb-2019 00:27:24

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Rikornak said:
What good will it do? Probably nothing, they get their twitch stuff promoted, but as a player I can't really care about it.

Right... so since they don't do anything good for the game, quite the opposite in fact since they inject random stuff to the game for no logical reason, why not just remove them? Nothing of value will be lost, and unnecessary damage will be prevented.


Rikornak said:
Okay - it's certainly easier for some level 3 tutorial island account to come by some t70-80 equipment than those 200m. But what exactly will happen to that thing except for setting on dust in a bank? I mean - we're talking about RS3, not RS2 where you could just equip certain pieces of armour without any requirements at all.

When the account reaches the levels needed to wear that equipment, it can just skip playing the content from where said equipment is normally earned, or if the regular version is tradeable, the less profitable earning the regular versions becomes.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

07-Feb-2019 00:27:31

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
ELITE STACK said:
A while ago they said that adding the holy wrench on the toolbelt would be too op and all it does is give a tiny prayer boost. But we get twitch prime and other things like deathtouch darts from raffles and multiple other sources and constant gp injections just for the sake of adding them. They literally said a wrench that provides a tiny prayer boost would offset game balance. The lack of consistency with game balance is ridiculous.

It's more akin to double standards than inconsistency; when there's quick buck to be made, Jagex happily greenlights imbalanced stuff to the game, and when there isn't, they pretend to care to preserve some kind of public face. Really wish they'd step up and take the game seriously again, it could be doing so much better than it is, and so easily too, when many of the issues are a simple removal.


Rikornak said:
You are also only assuming that billions of gp are entering the game. It could perfecty be that nobody actually wins the stuff - or well just your level 3 tutorial island guy.

Comparing the whole economy to one gp injection is quite a huge difference, and requires a lot more explanation than just "let's assume it's this big number" for it to make sense. 200m gp is a rare prize alright, but it's not some second coming of Jesus for you to win one, or do you honestly doubt that as little as just 5 people could've won 200m gp from the umbral chests?

But fine, just for you, I went exploring the Reddit for people sharing their umbral chest prizes, and the following people said they'd won the 200m gp prize:

u/eldelekemre
u/MericRL, the famous tutorial island guy, picture: https://i.redd.it/jhsp59kdedc11.png
u/FieryHawke, said he posted a screenshot to discord
u/Swiftay, also posted a puush image that's no longer available (no surprise since it's 6 months old)
u/Hail4Gaming, picture: https://i.imgur.com/QyOsHXZ.png
u/cstaheli
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

07-Feb-2019 12:28:54

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
u/taalix
u/snubb
u/Manuell_Calavera
u/MissingSix

At a quick glance, those are the people I managed to find, so there might be even more + even more people who don't even share stuff like this with others. 10 people x 200m = 2 billion gp injected to the game already, and even if half of them are lying (which I don't see why anyone would lie about this, like what would they gain by lying about this?), that's still a billion gp that we know has been added to the game... for no logical reason.

And yes, I know about alching and other means of gp being injected to the game, but like I explained several times already:

1. Everything adds up over time; even if umbral chests aren't huge by themselves, when you combine them with other illogical gp injections, they become a major issue.

2. These chests have no good reason to exist. They're literally unnecessary damage to the game that might as well be removed, and we should encourage people to play the game instead.

Also, I'll say this now so that I don't forget (as I'm typing these): if you can't come up with a reason as to how these chests are good for the game, please don't bother keeping up this argument just to try and belittle the damage caused by the chests. If you still continue without such a reason, I won't bother wasting more time explaining the same things over and over again.


Rikornak said:
To be honest: You were the guy who said TT rewards will collapse due those dice - didn't really happened, did it? I mean - you begrudged somebody getting a rare reward - even though those were actual ingame rewards a player has to earn - only for the reason Jagex hadn't messed up their existing player basis and allowed them to be obtained retroactively.

Actually, they did collapse; I should know, since I was there at the time doing some trading myself. Fortunate components especially crashed massively, and barrows/shadow dyes dipped too.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

07-Feb-2019 12:29:03

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I guess the reason why you think otherwise is because the prices eventually started recovering again, but it was common knowledge at the time that new alchemical onyx jewelry, which of course require fortunate components, would be coming in the future, which would sink more of them from the game.

Thing is, without the dice handing out so many components, the prices of alchemic onyx jewelry could be much higher than they are now. We don't know by how much, because we don't live in the alternative reality where the magical dice never happened, but it's common sense that because such a massive supply was added, that the demand was stopped from increasing higher due to not meeting up with the supply.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about the magical dice ITT, so let's go back to the actual topic, the chests.


Rikornak said:
Let's just assume they would introduce lucky anima core. Do you also think the regular variant will collapse? Even if it was obtained by players who would use it in relevant numbers, I already told you why all lucky items are worse than their real counterparts.

Yes. And yeah, lucky items cannot be augmented, but combat is much easier to train than unlocking invention and getting those augmentations necessary in the first place. If RS3 had a healthy early and midgame, there'd be many people with those combat levels but without the necessary augmentations. But it can never have those, as long as Jagex keeps treating RS3 like a joke where only endgame PvM matters.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

07-Feb-2019 12:29:09

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Zacktherippa said:
for one i like the chest and two... why would you be mad about this? we play this game everyday and some of us (me) are broke we dont have millions to spend on armour and gear we might need winning that 200m is a blessing for us... you guys are way to rich and i really dont know how you even become that rich to own phats and billion dollar weapons...


these chests are a game SAVIOR...!!!

What's the point of playing the game if you're just going to skip playing it? Runescape is a journey-based game; the most fun you can have is working yourself up to the top, properly earning your skill levels, gear, pets etc. If you just start skipping content, you're gonna run out of it a lot faster, and it'll get boring much sooner than it needs to be, not to mention that it devalues the content for other players as well.

Want to know how to get rich and remain rich? Stop dawdling around and start playing the game, working your skills up and learning new content. It's gonna take time and dedication, but if you persevere, you'll make it. If you just wait for someone to give you handouts like these chests do, you're likely going to go back to being poor again because you don't understand how to best use the money you received, not to mention that receiving so much money in exchange for nothing is probably going to increase your expectations to such a level where if you don't get something as easily as that 200m from playing certain content, you're gonna get bored and start waiting for similar handouts again.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

10-Feb-2019 11:30:14

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Galar Region said:
whats the point in anything then.

would you complained if somebody gave you $200 irl?

Err, what? I have no clue how you concluded that everything is pointless from what I said.

And if you ask a question like that and actually care about the answer, you should be more specific than that -- how I'd react to somebody giving me $200 irl would depend on the context. There's no straight answer. :P
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

11-Feb-2019 10:57:16

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
NathanC said:
After claiming my umbral chests and getting two cosmetic tokens I really think this is a bit overblown. The existence of lodestones is a bigger slight to rs players than this.

...you think this is overblown because you personally didn't get lucky? The bigger picture is much larger than your own 2 chests.

And regarding the "X is a bigger issue than this" sentiment, I agree that there are other issues in the game as well, but they should all be fixed, rather than excusing some because you don't believe them to be as big as something else. This thread is about the umbral chests, lodestones and other issues are their own separate topics.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

12-Feb-2019 09:35:34

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Fire Hawk154 said:
RS3 hasn't had integrity for a long time now, I don't see this as a big change. Although I agree it should get removed, we know Jagex doesn't give a shit about our opinions as they'd rather pump more MTX into the game.

Right, Jagex doesn't make it easy for us to get the message across, but like it is with difficult content sometimes, if you just keep trying, eventually you'll succeed. > )
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

12-Feb-2019 12:30:21

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Fire Hawk154 said:
I have absolutely no hopes for RS3 anymore, because even when I expect nothing, Jagex still finds ways to disappoint. I'm glad you still post a lot on the forums though, your posts are the only reason I open update threads.

Cheers! > )


Ladyolake said:
Both times i got umbral chests I got items which I wont use and I dont see
how it would hurt integrety of game even if i did.

First time I got lucky shield ( cant remember which one its at diangos and
a lucky piece of one of the barrow brother which again is at diangos.

Im not sure anyone even uses Barrows anymore unless its for fashion.

Last time i got 1000 invention cogs which probably wont use and then a lucky
chaotic claw which again i wont use. (maybe for fashionscape if i get the other
claw to match).

i dont see how it hurts anything but then again im not sure what all does come
in the chests.

Ever thought why nobody uses barrows anymore? Because it's quite simple: midgame in RS3 is dead. The game has become so fast-paced that Jagex would rather have you skip it altogether to reach the endgame quicker, which is not healthy for the game in the long term, since people will get bored quicker from running out of content to do quicker, and new players are greeted with vast quantities of dead content which scares them away.

Jagex could still fix the dead early and midgame though, by rebalancing those parts of the game and fixing issues like this that encourage people to just skip those parts of the game (most issues would be fixed by simply removing them; these chests for example only break the immersion of the game by appearing from thin air once you get Twitch Prime, so nothing of value would be lost by removing them). Then people would actually play that content and it'd be alive.

Btw, protean items can be converted to other proteans if you don't like the ones you have, in case you didn't know that.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

13-Feb-2019 09:29:29

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Transcendent said:
According to Jagex the game is in a period of deflation not inflation, so adding coins can't add to inflation which doesn't currently exist, except for with the artificial inflation of discontinued rares.

If inflation was a problem then injecting more gold into the game would potentially be a problem without significant gold sinks, but Jagex says the game has deflation not inflation currently, and if true then one in I don't know how many accounts getting 200m is not a huge concern for the overall economy of the game.

Lets be real, almost no one is going to win the 200m and the few accounts that do won't matter for the over all economy of the game, it will just effect the accounts that win mostly, and it will only effect them temporarily.

The rest of the items that can be won are for most players of too low a level to be of any use, or very low value, and/or untradeable.

Before I begin, I'm going to present the same question to you as I have to others who defend the umbral chests: what good do they add to the game that they should be kept? What sense do they have to exist? If you can't answer this, there's no point in continuing to argue with you, because nothing constructive will come from it otherwise.

Now about inflation/deflation, even if it was true that the game is in deflation, any and all gold injected to the game is going to risk pushing the game's economy back to inflation, so why would you want to harm the game on purpose if you don't have to? But I'd question such a statement from Jagex being true anyway, since IIRC, Jagex didn't even present any data to back it up. Jagex isn't new to lying, they blatantly lied to us for example that MTX would prevent membership subscription cost from increasing, so they should present more than just words to back up what they say.

Regarding the rest: everything adds up. The chests themselves add up to each other, as well as to other issues like this.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

13-Feb-2019 20:53:01

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Umbral chests are now given as an extra from buying the 450 key package as well... come on Jagex, this is ridiculous. It seems that your key sales have been declining as well, for you to have to resort to handing out even more umbral chests, but that just goes to show how unsustainable neglecting game integrity is in the long term.

Please remove umbral chests altogether!
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 11:02:18

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
David James said:
Part of me can't help but wonder if they did it out of spite for this thread, especially considering you can earn unlimited chests now. Well, as long as the promo lasts.

Still have a gut feeling they'll come up with some bs "since it went so well..." excuse to extend offer.


Although I mostly think it's to boost revenue before that potential sale that's been floating around and therefore attempt to drive up the share amount; or when you consider the special "bonus" key offer (that was inconsistent in the bonus amount) it could be a simple milking before sale.

Some say that making all this revenue doesn't matter because the sale is going to happen the same way regardless, others say the opposite, I don't really know all the details to know which way it is. But yeah, they used an excuse like that with extending the premier club offer too, so wouldn't be surprised. Jagex always forces projections of positiveness, even if they're only disguised to be positive when they aren't. Like when they shout out about having made a billion in lifetime sales; the big number is supposed to attract you from the fact that it doesn't mean anything when it comes to the game's current health.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 11:55:07

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
David James said:
Out of curiosity I just checked the price of keys, just to see exactly how much the 450 key offer was.

People seriously spend $110 for 450 keys? lolwut?


Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised but I genuinely was. I guess I underestimated how much people will spend on a game to not have to play it, or how much they'd be willing to spend for fashionscape.

That's why you really don't want stuff like these chests on a P2P game; if there are people willing to pay that much for something like this already, imagine how much worse it can get as Jagex further neglects the game's balance.


ELITE STACK said:
Blackwing said:
Umbral chests are now given as an extra from buying the 450 key package as well... come on Jagex, this is ridiculous. It seems that your key sales have been declining as well, for you to have to resort to handing out even more umbral chests, but that just goes to show how unsustainable neglecting game integrity is in the long term.

Please remove umbral chests altogether!



If they are struggling to get key sales I hope osrs isn't next.

If Jagex understands the playerbase at all, it won't be; there were already many people who weren't willing to give a second chance to Jagex, and they sure as hell won't give a third one, myself included.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 11:59:17

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
David James said:
Thinking about it more, I can't decide if the offer is geared more towards that already buy keys, or to attempt players that have never bought keys to actually do so. I'm leaning more towards the latter.

From a someone that has never bought keys; a bit of feedback is that this sort of "offer" actually has the opposite effect and makes me want to buy them even less.

If you think about it, it's aimed at:

1. People who have never bought keys.
2. People who have stopped buying keys.

Because people who continue to buy keys are already buying them, so why would Jagex give them more for the same price, when it'd only exhaust the demand faster?
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 12:53:29

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
David James said:
To encourage purchasing multiple packages, as they're more likely to purchase keys to begin with adding the chests will make them prone to buying several just for the umbral chests OR to cash in on their future key purchases now rather than later, as they'll save the keys for the promo they want if they're patient.

Similar to premier package; get the money for the year up front for purchased keys instead of later when the person sees a promo they like.


It's all hypothetical ofc, as I personally haven't seen anything warranting the purchase of keys tbh and can't comprehend why people would want to do so in the first place. It just lets you skip the game, which isn't fun to do in the long run.

Hmm, well now that you put it that way, I can see how it'd be like premier club but for TH keys. Imagine all that exp gained later though from people stocking up potentially tens of thousands of keys now... what a shame.


Kabir said:
It's really sad to see how the game is turning more and more into this. Free things handed out constantly, a lot of achievements very devalued, and just another desperate cash-grab every week almost. I assume you don't even need an active Twitch subscription, meaning that just getting the free trial for a week is enough?

Fairly certain that's the case, yeah. Haven't used it myself, obviously, but from what I've heard.


Foxxie said:
I'm fine with them being a one-off from Twitch Prime. I am NOT fine with them being purchasable for real-world money via the new key "promotion".

$116 for a guarenteed super-rare prize. This has gone too far.

I'd want to say I'm happy that you agree with me at least partially, but this is what happens when you let "gray area" things for you slide; they'll not stop until you stop them, so it's better to halt them early.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 23:10:42

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
@Deltaslug, since your posts don't really contain anything constructive to the topic (much of the usual excusing of bad game design that some others have already shown before), I'm only gonna reply to you this one time, unless you can actually answer the same question I've tried to ask from others with a similar view (with a response other than "I don't know" or similar empty answer): what good do these chests add to the game that justifies them being kept in the game? How is their existence in the game at all logical?

If you can't do that, you'll prove like the others that these chests have been implemented with bad game design, and as a player yourself, bad game design detracts from your gaming experience, so you naturally don't want.

Now, regarding your posts: the only certain thing in life is death. Everything else is more or less likely. Jagex might be what it is now, but if you genuinely think that this is what Jagex can ever be in the future, you're naive: you go on about the MTX issues being a thing for 7 years now, but guess what? The game was MTX-free for longer than that. Had you said to somebody back then that the game would become what it is today, that Jagex would get rid of that famous rule whereby real-life wealth shouldn't dictate your status on Runescape, they would've laughed in your face, just like some do now when you try to explain to them that there could be a different era following the MTX era.

If you're tired of waiting for a possible era change like that and you wish to quit, you do you, but as long as Jagex keeps going, there's always a chance that they'll change. Whether that's voluntarily or through government regulation or whatever else.

Anyhow, good luck with your job. > )
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

18-Feb-2019 23:10:47

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Jaekob Caed said:
Meh, the game's economy is relatively self-sustaining at this point thanks to gold and item sinks like Bonds, the charity wishing well and Invention. I sincerely doubt these chests are harming the economy in any significant, long-term way.

We don't know how much they damage the economy, but we do know that they do damage the economy (since it's common sense that more gp enters the game -> inflation is fueled, and the more supply of items/exp -> the less demand there is), and since their existence in the game is completely illogical (just like you don't present a good reason for them to exist, only excuse them), the chests might as well be removed, and nothing good would be lost.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

19-Feb-2019 13:19:28

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Draco Burnz said:
Blackwing said:
We don't know how much they damage the economy, but we do know that they do damage the economy (since it's common sense that more gp enters the game -> inflation is fueled, and the more supply of items/exp -> the less demand there is), and since their existence in the game is completely illogical (just like you don't present a good reason for them to exist, only excuse them), the chests might as well be removed, and nothing good would be lost.


Uhh, thats where you're wrong.

If they remove them, then that just shows they listen to complainers and thats just another slippery slope.

Because Jagex is always perfect and can't make mistakes/do wrong, huh? :P

Seriously though, when Jagex does something wrong, we absolutely should call them out for it and make them fix it. And in this case, I've presented multiple issues that the chests cause, all the while the people defending the chests haven't presented any reasons as to how the chests are good for the game's health. The only thing they've tried to do is excuse the chests for not being as bad as something else, but that just goes to show that they themselves don't know of any reasons as to how the chests are good for the game either, or they'd bring them up instead of the excuses.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

20-Feb-2019 18:12:21

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Daibhi said:
Blackwing said:
EDIT: As of 18/February/2019, umbral chests are now also given for each 450 key package you buy, with no limit as to how many times you can buy them. This just further adds to the damage: please removal the umbral chests, Jagex! :(


I'm late to the party but I don't think many will be jumping at the chance to buy those chests via buying 450 keys - unless they're an idiot with disposable income. I was curious because of the pop up in game mentioning them and had a look at the price - £74? I nearly lost all the oxygen in my lungs after reading that, I had to do a double take to make sure I read it right.

I really don't think many will be buying them because of the price tag alone. £50 or so is pushing it but I'd call that more reasonable than fucking £74 haha.

Even if many people don't jump in on the offer, it doesn't equal not many chests entering the game; whales have so much money on their disposal, and since the offer is unlimited, you can imagine how many chests can enter into the game from one person alone. But as usual, it doesn't really matter how many enter the game, because any that enter the game are too many: they don't fit the game, they don't add anything good to the game. Any self-respecting game designer wants their game to be played, and designs the whole game to be fun to play, rather than adding skippable grind.

But really, 50 pounds for a bunch of fake currency is only pushing it? You can get full games for that price, or if you want to compare to Runescape, 8-9 months of membership.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

21-Feb-2019 13:38:11

Blackwing

Blackwing

Posts: 38,069Sapphire Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Daibhi said:
I suppose that'll be the way I talk slipping in (without tone it doesn't come across how it normally would) while I said £50 would be pushing it that wasn't necessarily me saying I'd be completely ok with that hypothetical scenario, but rather that it would be easier to swallow than. Afterall, like you said, you can buy fully fledged games (sometimes) for £50 or even less.

Personally I don't think I'll ever be able to understand the mindset of a "whale", even if I had the money to burn myself I'd probably spend it something that was a bit more.. useful or at least had some sort of practicality to it in the real world. I didn't take into consideration "whales" £148 for essentially two chest though (ignoring the keys) nevermind more than that? Pft...

Are the items gained from the chests even tradeable though? It doesn't seem like, other than what the player could potentially get via the keys, much is gained from these chests - assuming the items can't be traded.

I wouldn't blame you for not understanding it, since it's probably a good thing in it that it helps prevent you from doing it yourself, but you'll still want to be aware of it, so that you can see the potential issues from others doing it proactively, which would affect you as well.

Some of the rewards from the chests are tradeable, some are not. Either way, they detract from the economy; whether you get the 200m jackpot which adds to inflation, or proteans which reduces the demand for tradeable resources, it harms the economy one way or another.
The Runescape Witcher
|| Arclight for demons | Ghrazi rapier for humans and monsters

21-Feb-2019 15:22:20

Quick find code: 15-16-468-66081095Back to Top