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Feedback and Proposal

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SkalShadar
Jul Member 2018

SkalShadar

Posts: 16Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Tl;dr:
Stone Spirits have barely any value, and while they do push us to the new mining of ores, the value of ores are dropping significantly as well. Removing them from the drop tables entirely ups the chance at other loot, while still forcing us to go to the mines when we want our ore. Buffing skilling as a money maker is good, but don't hurt PvM to do it. Equalize them.

Full Version:
Alright so, firstly, I absolutely LOVE this update. I haven't seen the mining guild this packed since the launch of RS2, and I've hated mining since classic, but now, I'm having fun doing it.

When the update hit, I was ready. I was in the beta, I mined and smith my heart out, made new pickaxes, made new armor, not because I needed new T70 melee armor, but because I wanted to try every part of the new system, so I could give honest feedback.

That feedback, Jagex, is that you absolutely nailed. Best update in decades.

Moving on though, I have one small bone to pick with your update. Stone spirits suck. The idea is really cute, and I absolutely agree with taking away PvM giving skilling resources. It brings the economy back to the skillers, where for a long time, if you didn't PvM, money took ages to come by. Wanting to bring money back to skilling, and make skilling both fun and profitable is a surefire way to help us and please most of us. So props for that.

However, your stone spirits have little value currently (albeit this is still early after the update), and at higher end bosses, the ores which these spirits represent (runite, adamantite, coal) have seen massive drops in value, which I think we all agree is to be expected. These two effects combined is significantly hurting the value of bossing at high level, often making us lose money while killing them.

Please consider removing them as drops or reworking them to give ores/buffs of higher value.

Cheers, and happy Scaping

09-Jan-2019 17:27:42

SkalShadar
Jul Member 2018

SkalShadar

Posts: 16Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
INB4 anyone asks:
- After killing Araxxi 8 times consecutively, I lost nearly 1m in the cost of Sara brews compared to the value of the ores for which I was provided. That would be more if I count the much lower value of the Stone Spirits.

- I am aware that RNG plays a huge role, but the drops in question are uncommon to common for the higher bosses, meaning that losing money while bossing is now a significant threat, which will push even more people away from it, as if it wasn't already daunting for many.

- I DID partake in the beta, making one of everything I had the level for, mining all the new ores anywhere I could find them, etc. This reduction in the value of bossing would have been unpredictable in the beta, as the market in the Beta was only a snapshot and so the actual values of these things was unpredictable. I honestly expected them to be WAY more popular.

- I support more the reworking of them than the removal. This update is massive, and while it's only a small part of the update, to cut any content after 2 open betas and months of work and feedback seems highly unnecessary and unlikely. Ideally, I'd propose to give them an alch value that makes them worthwhile drops to get, or something similar.

- Finally, I am aware that these are still VERY early days of the update, and it's nearly impossible to predict how the value of Stone Spirits might change in a week or even a month. I'd call not for an immediate change, but for attention to be paid to their value, and hope that if it doesnt rise relatively soon, that the ball will already be rolling to rework them slightly to balance their value.

Hopefully this clears up some of the circumstances that led me to this opinion, and feedback is always welcome :D

09-Jan-2019 17:32:12 - Last edited on 09-Jan-2019 17:42:56 by SkalShadar

Steelweaver
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2015

Steelweaver

Posts: 11,561Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
There's also the matter of their extremely low G.E buy limits, meaning people aren't buying them because they can't stock up on a bunch of them quickly, which I think is the biggest problem.
The Steelweaver

World Guardian #835
Maxed 9/7/2016
120 Smithing 1/4/2019

09-Jan-2019 17:44:00

David James
Dec Member 2018

David James

Posts: 4,426Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Bossing/PvM makes up for the profit loss through "big" drops, as it always shoulda have been. Every kill doesn't mean you should make money on it. Back before skiller drops were given to PvM'ers, it was likely you'd lose millions before getting a drop. That was the "risk" of bossing.


The spirits aren't selling atm because you can only buy 100 every 4 hours through the ge. People can't buy/use them as fast as they're being created.

Eventually they might add spirits from higher-leveled ores into the drop tables, but not until after they see the influx of ore after the "rush" Give it a year maybe. Even then idk, it'd just once again cut skillers dramatically to boost PvM slightly.

The last thing they need to do is buff PvM drops with spirits that (once again) crashes the ores and (once again) takes the profit back from skilling.

More people also do PvM/bossing than people that mine for profit; meaning there will be a surplus of spirits, driving the price down (just like currently)

I said this in another thread, but PvM will always make money. It'll make MORE money than mining/skilling. 1m/hr decrease for mining by adding higher spirits to drop tables (more spirits, more ores, less value) can cut profits by 30-50% (or more) whilst for PvM a 1m/hr decrease is dramatically less.

Come back and complain once all PvM drops get put into skilling (for 10+ years) and ya'lls profits are cut by 50-80%. After 10 years of that then maybe people will listen.

09-Jan-2019 17:47:21

Warkev
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2015

Warkev

Posts: 362Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
SkalShadar said:
INB4 anyone asks:
- After killing Araxxi 8 times consecutively, I lost nearly 1m in the cost of Sara brews compared to the value of the ores for which I was provided. That would be more if I count the much lower value of the Stone Spirits.

:D


They will be looking into this in the next 1-2 weeks as market values become more stable for the items.

I know it sucks for PVMers that bosses are currently much worse profit than they used to be, but that is temporary. For once in a very long time skilling as an update is very good profit and interesting. What Jagex's plan is basically asking for PVMers to be patient and let something else be profitable for 1-2 weeks that is all. I realize that seems very difficult for most PMVers who are accustom to having all the best profits and being Jagex's favorite.

09-Jan-2019 17:49:02

Daibhi
Sep Member 2017

Daibhi

Posts: 863Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Warkev said:

What Jagex's plan is basically asking for PVMers to be patient and let something else be profitable for 1-2 weeks that is all. I realize that seems very difficult for most PMVers who are accustom to having all the best profits and being Jagex's favorite.


I'm sorry but how you worded this has me conflicted by what you mean. This will remain profitable just for 1-2 weeks and then we go back to how it's been for more than a decade? Wouldn't that pretty much mean this update was an absolute waste of time and effort considering what good it's done for the skilling community?

I think all they need to do, as I saw in another comment somewhere here, is increase the cap on these stone spirits then skillers will happily buy them in bulk thus PVM'ers can get some degree of money out of them while still leaving the M&S overhaul intact.

09-Jan-2019 17:57:48

SkalShadar
Jul Member 2018

SkalShadar

Posts: 16Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
David James said:
Bossing/PvM makes up for the profit loss through "big" drops, as it always shoulda have been. That was the "risk" of bossing.

Come back and complain once all PvM drops get put into skilling (for 10+ years) and ya'lls profits are cut by 50-80%. After 10 years of that then maybe people will listen.


For bosses like Araxxi and Telos, the enrage anti-farm and high death potential mixed with this new much less valuable spirits drop is taking the reward out of risk and reward. I'm not talking about Kril and Gradoor and QBD, where Runite or large sums of Coal was some of their best drops. These bosses are much easier in terms of difficulty, and honestly, a lot of them were farmable for hours and making crazy profit due to ore values. Seeing those bosses dropped down a bit makes sense, given their low risk.

Getting them 2-5 at a time from slayer, which can be camped for ages? Makes great sense! It gets us out of the camping corners and into the mines, skilling, socializing, it's perfect. But when fighting these very high risk bosses, some of whom can cost hundreds of thousdands of gold in just consumable supplies per fight, replacing a mid-tier drop with 10k worth of stone spirits just doesn't make sense. High Risk with debuffed rewards defeats the whole purpose of bossing.

I don't support the "buffing" of PvM drops. The game is already mostly catered towards PvM, and thus the larger portion of the community are PvMers. Some by choice, some by necessity. The M&S rework is a huge buff to skilling, which has been much needed. But a large debuff to the highest end of PvM doesn't help skilling, it just upsets the larger portion of the community.

09-Jan-2019 18:02:51

Ancient Zest
Dec Member 2018

Ancient Zest

Posts: 197Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Yeah this is why no one does the KBD or Mole, their drop tables suck.
I remember watching a vid of a guy who killed about 100 of them? Drops were medicore at best, but a few KBD heads, things he didn't want lmao.

Kalaphite Queen also has bad drops, she was great when the Dragon Chain was worth something, but it's no longer 10mil but like 200k so.

Yeahhhh PVM is definitely taking a hit. Aviansies drop 4 noted addy bars, was a good source of income, I bet you that's trash now.

09-Jan-2019 18:05:22

SkalShadar
Jul Member 2018

SkalShadar

Posts: 16Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Warkev said:
SkalShadar said:
INB4 anyone asks:
- After killing Araxxi 8 times consecutively, I lost nearly 1m in the cost of Sara brews compared to the value of the ores for which I was provided. That would be more if I count the much lower value of the Stone Spirits.

:D


They will be looking into this in the next 1-2 weeks as market values become more stable for the items.

I know it sucks for PVMers that bosses are currently much worse profit than they used to be, but that is temporary. For once in a very long time skilling as an update is very good profit and interesting. What Jagex's plan is basically asking for PVMers to be patient and let something else be profitable for 1-2 weeks that is all. I realize that seems very difficult for most PMVers who are accustom to having all the best profits and being Jagex's favorite.


It doesn't suck for PvMers at all. As someone who does PvM Bossing avidly, I can assure you, even with these low prices, it's hardly scratching into our profits overall. Which is why I proposed that we rework them and remove them from the drop tables. Perhaps make them only drop from the lower end of PvM where people camp for ages at a time. My point was that at higher tiers of PvM, they serve no purpose and have minimal value, so if their value stays low, it'd be nice to see them drop less often or removed entirely from only the highest end bosses. Put the reward back in Risk Vs Reward, yknow?

Not to mention, it's actually quite nice to see skills that are essentially completely overlooked by most people getting such great attention. I've hated mining since I started playing just after the launch of RS2 ( I was too young to partake in classic), and these last few days, I've actually really enjoyed both skills!

09-Jan-2019 18:08:22

SkalShadar
Jul Member 2018

SkalShadar

Posts: 16Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Ancient Zest said:
Yeah this is why no one does the KBD or Mole, their drop tables suck.
I remember watching a vid of a guy who killed about 100 of them? Drops were medicore at best, but a few KBD heads, things he didn't want lmao.

Kalaphite Queen also has bad drops, she was great when the Dragon Chain was worth something, but it's no longer 10mil but like 200k so.

Yeahhhh PVM is definitely taking a hit. Aviansies drop 4 noted addy bars, was a good source of income, I bet you that's trash now.


But see, this is perfect. Those monsters can be camped for bloody ages. Ive gone into KBD with a few searing overloads, a bunch of prayer pots, and mid-tier gear, and camped him for over 2h without needing to leave, and I basically AFK'd the entire thing while watching youtube. If I could get regular drops of 200-300k+ from this, it'd be insanely unbalanced.

Giving these debuffs to the things we can camp for hours on end with little to no effort makes sense. Its just logical balacing. But giving them to the hardest bosses who takes months of prep and training to get into killing does not.

09-Jan-2019 18:11:05

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