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Merge Stone Spirits

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Miu

Miu

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Stone spirits are an interesting concept but dividing them each into strict categories makes them less useful, both to people who earn them as drops and to miners.

Instead, have different ores consume different amount of stone spirits. Higher tiered ore would consume more.

Basically, change stone spirits so there's only one type, and how many get used up depends on the ores. It would also be a simple conversion to convert existing stone spirits into a corresponding number of merged stone spirits.
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14-Jan-2019 05:50:51

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Couldn't one make a similar argument about any tier-based resource?

Why have different ore types? Just make it so that better bars take more ores or that better armors take more bars.

Why have different hides? Just make it so that higher level armors need more to be crafted, or that better leathers need more hides to make.

By dividing a resource group into different subtypes, Jagex lets each be subject to economic pressures individually. Unifying them would make it so that the price is determined for all of them by the most profitable option they can be used for at any given time (inherently making all other uses a waste of value (more than likely making them prohibitively expensive for low and/or medium level use)).

Furthermore, it presents an issue in that should a monster that drops these generic spirits later become easier to kill (ex: due to the release of niche gear or a higher tier of cost effective gear) the increased volume of generic spirits entering the game through them would affect the average drop table value of all monsters that drop them rather than just a subgroup of them.

The former makes this a poor option for skillers, while the latter makes this undesirable for PvMers.

I'll honestly applaud Jagex for approaching this as they have. By only adding very limited sources and inconsistent sources of stone spirits for the new ores, Jagex risks very little long term economic damage during the fluctuations this update has caused with only some inconvenience to PvM.

Once the hype dies down, Jagex can get a better picture of where ores now sit in value and how much and often each type is mined and used. This then will allow them to assign (and potentially reassign) stone spirits to new and old drop tables with less risk of devaluing them due to oversupply (like seeds are) or unintentionally making a monster's drop table over profitable.

15-Jan-2019 00:11:33

Miu

Miu

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Hguoh said:
Couldn't one make a similar argument about any tier-based resource?

Why have different ore types? Just make it so that better bars take more ores or that better armors take more bars.

Why have different hides? Just make it so that higher level armors need more to be crafted, or that better leathers need more hides to make.
Stone spirits aren't a resource, they're a secondary item that boosts resource gathering. We don't need ten different leather spirits or needles or thread or whatever to accommodate every piece of leatherwork.

Hguoh said:
By dividing a resource group into different subtypes, Jagex lets each be subject to economic pressures individually.
What that will end up doing is making them all worthless except animica spirits. PvMers will be unsatisfied by low value drops. Hguoh said:
Unifying them would make it so that the price is determined for all of them by the most profitable option they can be used for at any given time (inherently making all other uses a waste of value.
Don't think this will happen, nor is that necessarily a bad thing. See: energy prices for use in invention.

Hguoh said:
Furthermore, it presents an issue in that should a monster that drops these generic spirits later become easier to kill (ex: due to the release of niche gear or a higher tier of cost effective gear) the increased volume of generic spirits entering the game through them would affect the average drop table value of all monsters that drop them rather than just a subgroup of them.
They shouldn't be a common enough drop to impact it in such a way.

Hguoh said:
The former makes this a poor option for skillers, while the latter makes this undesirable for PvMers.
It's already undesirable for PvMers.
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15-Jan-2019 01:04:50

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

Posts: 7,424Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Miu said:
What that will end up doing is making them all worthless except animica spirits. PvMers will be unsatisfied by low value drops.


1. If that were the case, should that not also bolster the value of rune and luminite spirits as their ores make the secondary for elder rune.
2. Given the use of each kind of bar besides gold and silver in masterwork and trimmed masterwork, I doubt each would be worthless. Lower tier spirits would, of course, be worth less than higher tier stone spirits, but I wouldn't expect that stone spirits of rune and above (also likely luminite) would be worth much less than their respective ores.

Miu said:
Don't think this will happen, nor is that necessarily a bad thing. See: energy prices for use in invention.


There's a fundamental difference between multiple items being exchangeable at different rates for one output and one item being exchangeable at different rates for multiple outputs. The former allows.

The former allows for a tier or tiers of item to exceed the floor set by the shared conversion output if one of their own uses exceeds the value of their shared output. It also means that should one tier of item become so common so as to devalue their shared output, the other tiers can still hold value if their unique outputs then exceed the reduced value of their shared output, which mitigates the effect of one tier losing value.

The latter leaves no such insurance for fluctuations in supply. By making a single universal item, should the supply of the item increase without a corresponding increase in demand (a new weapon makes a monster easier to kill) or their most valuable output reduce in demand (Jagex releases an armor that competes with Masterwork or an alternative method to train Smithing without using Animica) the reduction in value of the single item will affect the profitability of all of its sources .

15-Jan-2019 01:52:43

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

Posts: 7,424Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Miu said:
They shouldn't be a common enough drop to impact it in such a way.


How many monsters dropped ores and bars prior to the Rework? How many dropped several hundred of ores or bars above and beyond copper/tin/bronze? Even using the most extreme conversion rate for energies to charges (pale to ancestral is 20:1), you'll quickly see an oversupply for use in mining even the animicas.

Miu said:
It's already undesirable for PvMers.


A diversified economy is stable. One that isn't is heavily subject to the whims and winds of day to day demands. By limiting it to one item for all ores, you risk any fall or rise in value adversely affecting the balance of many monsters' drop tables (making them disproportionately profitable or unprofitable) with little resistance.

15-Jan-2019 02:04:38

Zparanoid
Apr Member 2003

Zparanoid

Posts: 3,931Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I don't think the problem is that stone spirits are tiered per se.

Rather, that the tier 80 and tier 90 bosses now give out large quantities of noted low level stone spirits (coal, runite and addy).

A player with endgame stats and endgame equipment is probably not going to be interested in low level stone spirits, so its somewhat incongruous for them to receive large amounts of said as a reward when facing combat challenges appropriate to their tier.

I don't think that stone spirits as a reward is necessarily a bad thing (for example, the noted light animica stone spirit reward from crystal implings), they just need to be appropriate to the level of the content.

15-Jan-2019 11:58:34

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