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Mod Shauny

Mod Shauny

Jagex Moderator Forum Profile Posts by user
Hello everyone.

It's time to fix the completionist cape, or the comp cape as it's known to its friends.

You might be asking, what needs fixing? Well, that's what this dev blog is about.

The Problems
The comp cape ought to be the premiere achievement in the game for completionists, with the trimmed cape going even further above and beyond. Every new update should bring new joys and make completionists happier and happier. Instead we see wailing and gnashing of teeth. Every new comp requirement is met with frustration by those players who see re-comping as a frustrating chore. We've responded to that by including fewer comp requirements, which the actual completionists are also frustrated by. This then becomes a tightrope for our developers, and we've seen comp reqs, or lack of them, completely sink the player opinion of an otherwise great update.

Why is this?


Problem 1
The problem comes down to the stats and utility on the comp cape. The original intention for the comp cape was that you'd be able to wear it all the time without missing your other capes. For this reason, it stacks the benefits of all other capes together. The problem with this approach is that all capes stacked together is vastly more effective than any other individual cape.

Many players, especially dedicated bossers, feel that the comp cape is so powerful that it's necessary for competitive performance. In particular, a lot of these players are not motivated by completionism. They have no interest in completing all content, instead preferring to play a specific kind of content they enjoy. This is a perfectly valid playstyle, but it is not the audience that the comp cape was originally aimed at. At the same time, some players who actually are completionists are frustrated that comp doesn't actually require completionism.

In short, the people who most benefit from the stats and utility on comp are not the same people who enjoy the content and challenge that comp provides. This is the first and biggest problem we need to fix.

Problem 2
Fixing this would allow us to fix the second biggest problem, which is the requirements themselves. For a few years now we've been consciously avoiding having comp actually be about completionism, instead trying to minimise the reqs to make comp easier to get and maintain. This has left comp with a very confused identity where its reqs seem quite arbitrary because no consistent rules are applied.

We need to create a stricter and more specific definition of what fits on comp and trimmed comp. This would then allow both developers and players to be more confident of what is and isn't a comp req rather than everything being an unexpected surprise.

Problem 3
The third significant problem we're aware of are specific problematic requirements which keep recurring, especially reaper and castle wars. Reaper has two closely related issues - it adds both hard PVM content and forced group content as requirements, which locks out players who can't or won't do either of those things.

Problem 4
This is exacerbated by the fourth problem, which is that once you're maxed (itself no small feat) the next thing to aim for is comp, and if you're not going to comp you don't really have anything else to aim for. This means that a player who is locked out of comp (either because they can't or won't do some of the reqs, or they don't have time to earn comp before the reqs get even further away) is effectively locked out of RuneScape's endgame.

To summarise the problems:

- Comp's best in slot stats and utility compel non-completionist players to get it and hate the process.
- Comp and trim comp requirements are inconsistent and unpredictable.
- Some controversial requirements lock players out of comp, and thus endgame play.
- Comp is such a huge leap after maxing that there is no practical endgame for many players.

The Solutions


So what are we going to do about it?

The most important point is that we're going to ask you, the players. We have some ideas on how to fix comp, but it's a hugely important and controversial part of the game. The point of fixing comp is to make the game better, not worse.

With this dev blog, we're putting a poll in game to ask you for your opinions. We're not pitching a final design and a yes/no guaranteed content poll at this stage. Instead, it's more of a survey, asking you your opinion on several issues, and we're going to do our best to take those opinions into account when we do write the design.

The reason it's not a guaranteed content poll is that we need to look at the data and think about what it means. We'll be distinguishing between players who've ever had comp, and players who've never had comp, and this could make it more complex than a simple majority. For example, say a majority vote to remove some requirements, but the overwhelming majority of compers vote against it. We'll need to carefully consider what to do in that situation rather than just automatically going with the slight majority.

It's going to be a complicated issue to solve, because we are aware of how strongly a lot of players feel about the hard work they've put in to their capes. We don't want to take away anyone's accomplishment, or devalue effort previously spent, or make anyone feel like they wasted their time. At the same time we need to find a solution which works for a (hopefully) overwhelming majority of players and improves the game for everyone.

By the time you read this, the poll will be live in game so please jump in and give us your opinion. The poll outcome will help us decide on an initial approach to problems 1, 2 and 3. This isn't your only chance to give your opinion or have input on the project - this is only the start of the community interaction, not the end.

You may feel frustrated when answering the poll that there isn't enough detail to know exactly what you're voting for. At this stage we're not polling anything specific. For example, you won't find a question asking whether reaper should be on comp or castle wars should be on trim comp. This is specific detail that will come later, and it may make sense to poll it at that stage once the overall design is firmer.

You might feel like you don't have enough information yet to answer the questions, but the idea is to gauge the generalities rather than the specifics. For example, question 3 asks about removing old requirements from comp if they don't fit the definition. Rather than trying to game the outcome in order to get specific requirements kept or removed, it'd be more useful to us if you could honestly answer the question of whether you think maintaining old requirements is more important than having a strict definition.

If you are really interested in the specifics, the best thing to do is join us in the comp cape rework Discord channels on the official RuneScape Discord server: https://www.discord.gg/rs

Unpolled Changes


In addition to the poll, there are a few changes we intend to make that we haven't included on the poll because they're not really controversial. None of this is final at this stage, but we think they're good solutions to some of the issues.

The actual stats on comp are tricky, and there are a couple of questions in the poll about it, but the utility benefits (like spirit cape, ava's, etc) are arguably more powerful and relevant to the cape being seen as essential. We can fix this by changing the utility benefits that comp has to be passive in nature in the first place.

For example, we could add in a new dungeoneering shop reward which requires the spirit cape and permanently unlocks the effect of the cape as a passive bonus on the player, regardless of whether a player is wearing the spirit cape or not. Solving utility benefits in this way means that the controversial problem of how to get the best in slot cape only needs to deal with stats, and this simplifies problem 1 a lot.

We can address problem 4 (comp being inaccessible) by adding in other capes of accomplishment which are more specific and/or require less work to obtain. For example, we could add in several PVM capes and skilling capes which get harder and harder to obtain giving lots of different players something to aim for. The controversial part of this would be what stats the capes would have, which is why we're asking this in the poll.

Finally, assuming we can find a good solution to the problem of mandatory stats, we would definitely expect to have a much more specific definition of what should and shouldn't be on comp and trim comp in the future. This is something we need to do anyway - the complicated part is how we deal with the effects this would have on current and future compers.

So get involved, vote in the poll, come chat on Discord, and we can fix comp together!

Mod Jack and the Four Direction Team
Mod Shauny - RuneScape Community Management - Goebies! - @JagexShauny
I love Clans!

23-Jan-2019 10:55:57 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2019 10:58:49 by Mod Shauny

Yum Yum
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2008

Yum Yum

Posts: 2,158Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Minigame requirements for Trim comp cape are mostly dead content that are only active when spotlight is active on said minigames. In my opinion, these minigames should be removed as being requirements.

23-Jan-2019 13:19:47

Mega Duck
Nov Member 2013

Mega Duck

Posts: 2,531Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Yum Yum said:
Minigame requirements for Trim comp cape are mostly dead content that are only active when spotlight is active on said minigames. In my opinion, these minigames should be removed as being requirements.

Don't even go there......

They should remain. Take Castlewars for example, people have put countless hours into it to obtain trim. It would be a total punch in the face if it got removed. We have spotlight, so most minigames are still alive and doable when spotlight is active.

Better idea,
revive
dead minigames and make them once again attractive to do.

23-Jan-2019 13:20:34 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2019 13:31:02 by Mega Duck

Atlach Nacha
May Gold Premier Club Member 2010

Atlach Nacha

Posts: 1,648Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Couple things I would like to see:
1) Replace The Reaper title from Completionist cape, with "death effect" achievement from trimmed completionist cape. (unlocking all permanent effects from Death's store).

You could either do reaper tasks, or by "Gift for the Reaper" received either from Motherload Maw, or Deep Sea Fishing Merchant for the points to unlock them.
Similar how you can unlock Livid Farm Spells, by buying Livid Plants from Merchant.

2) Any PVM challenge/fight could be completed by use of Deathtouched Darts.

Like it was before The Reaper title.

These could make the more controversial achievements more universally achievable, by time, possibly fixing issues with them.
MY NAME IS ATLACH NA*HA, NOOB OF NOOBS:
HEAR OF MY FAILS, YE MIGHTY, AND DESPAIR!

23-Jan-2019 13:21:57 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2019 16:36:30 by Atlach Nacha

Yum Yum
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2008

Yum Yum

Posts: 2,158Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Mega Duck said:
Yum Yum said:
Minigame requirements for Trim comp cape are mostly dead content that are only active when spotlight is active on said minigames. In my opinion, these minigames should be removed as being requirements.

Don't even go there......

They should remain. Take Castlewars for example, people have put countless hours into it to obtain trim. It would be a total punch in the face. We have spotlight, so most minigames are still alive and doable when spotlight is active.


Most people can't even play castle wars on spotlight because they lagg so much and cant even do anything. Most people have just been boosting castle wars with their alt accounts just for the requirement. They even do the same at other minigames just to build up the thaler to buy the profround armour. So yeah, this needs to be fixed or removed.

23-Jan-2019 13:31:03 - Last edited on 23-Jan-2019 13:31:16 by Yum Yum

Jal-Hur
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2006

Jal-Hur

Posts: 206Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
- I like the fact that comp cape adds other capes benefits.
- I don't want to be forced in to groups, so make a solo only cape beside the normal or make the normal solo only. What is the acomp of ppl paying to do group bosses?
- a decent grace time would be nice so I can enjoy new content more

23-Jan-2019 13:32:31

Sancho Panza
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Sancho Panza

Posts: 405Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I have a comp cape, I hate group pvm but I made it through mainly with the help of my brother who loves pvm. Reaper was actually my last comp req to complete which made some people laugh since it's one of the easier reqs.

Comp is not hard to achieve to be honest I had no desire to get it until I saw I was like 10 reqs away. Trim on the other hand the cwars req alone is the only thing that puts me off. I have zero desire to play cwars again which perfectly fine with me I have other goals in the game i'd like to achieve.


This whole thing seems like people are just whining because they don't want to put forth the effort to achieve the cape.

23-Jan-2019 13:34:04

Crusixed
May Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Crusixed

Posts: 4Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I would add branches to the comp capes, set a number of tasks in different play styles.

For example you could have a comp capes built around;
pvm
skilling
mini-games
exploration
etc (quests)
maybe even with a trimmed version of those capes.

Each cape could have a perk or perks that retain to the way it is achieved, and can be combined for the main comp version, and trimmed comp versions respectively.

perhaps don't make the capes best-in-slot outright, instead the motivation should be in its perks, not so much its stats

23-Jan-2019 13:39:51

Ryou Lunan
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2011

Ryou Lunan

Posts: 142Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The issue with keeping it as is though, means you can't spend time doing other content, it's either do this event, do these new quests, unlock these new rewards (granted those are comp reqs anyways) or focus on minigames.
Besides a few games of FishFlingers I only have Castlewars left until I trim.
But take the current event with the Valkyrie feathers:
I can either choose to do the event (completing things like this, is why I aimed for trim)
Focus my time on getting trim, (which leads me to not work on the event)
Buy runecoins to finish the event (while I don't have an issue with it, other players don't have as much cash ready to throw around, or would have to use gp, which takes playing content outside of the minigames to get, and can only do for so long)

This wouldn't be an issue, but think how much time you have daily to do this?
8 hours sleep, 8 hours work, 8 hours rs
For the 47,725 thaler needed, that's 796 hours of time-in minigame.
That's 100 days, of consitently playing 8 hours a day of minigames.
That's not even including the lobby times or anything else that you'd have to do that extends that.
That's over 100 days of not being able to do any new content, or sacrificing time trimming, gp, or real cash to do other things.


Is afk'ing a game for 100+ days, anything to considered an achievement, or to be proud of?
besides, those that already have the games, have rewards from it, they now have 48k thaler they could use elsewhere, or wear the 5k game cape.

Really, you could solve both issues by just making a minigame title/cape similar to the reaper store.
Why is it that Civility and Respect seem dead? Is it a must that disagreeing with someone means you must insult them?

23-Jan-2019 13:43:04

Jaheem
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2016

Jaheem

Posts: 161Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Its Been brought up many times i didn't see it once on the fourms .. basetank and i also others on reddit have suggested the cape be a HUB Cape similar to the way the OSRS Max cape works . this would end content restrictions since in a sense the cape stats would be adaptive.. and no one would have a reason to complain.. skillers and pvmers could still complete the base comp reqs such as quest, achievement task and get the completionist cape but for the cape to be BIS it would be combined with what ever New Cape that could potentially come out changing its stats .. again similar to how the max cape works in OSRS.. this would also end the cycle of not having content for capes and could bring a variety of new things.
80 Defence and Strong;)

23-Jan-2019 13:50:39

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