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Could Guthix be reforged?

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Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

Maiden China

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He didn't have much to give up, no real friends, family, seren's dead (ish, at least he thinks so), and he doesn't care about 'muhahaha, I have the power' stuff
His life would be mostly existing at this point... which.. explains why he decided to sleep. Totally what I would do if I were immortal
Carn

29-Jul-2016 11:55:14

King Peter
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2003

King Peter

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Theory time! Suppose we somehow get an Elder God to grant us a wish (maybe Zaros, if we help him ascend and ask him really nicely). And suppose we got this Elder God to collect all of Guthix' memories, forge a new body in his likeness, complete with a personality matching what we know about him. Even if this Guthix 2.0 were infused with the lingering memories of the original, it would, as far as is known from the canon, not be the actual Guthix. However, what I'm wondering is, would anybody be able to tell the difference? In particular, would Guthix 2.0 himself be able to tell the difference?

I don't think we really have enough information about how souls work, and about what Elder Gods are actually capable of to answer this question. But it is interesting to think about!
King Peter
the Ravensworn
,
World Guardian of Guthix
.
A flame can never be a star,
however bright it burns.

29-Jul-2016 20:30:00

Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

Maiden China

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Guthix 1.0 would be able to tell the difference and that is what matters most... to me, at least

if your wife died, you're not going to make a wife 2.0 who acts the same, thinks the same, looks the same and doesnt realize that she died (or thinks you resurrected her)

partially because that would be immensely creepy and mostly because she's not her
Carn

30-Jul-2016 04:46:21

Kemtros
Feb Member 2006

Kemtros

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Captain Lime said:
Firstly, it's essentially the plot of the Ascension Dungeon - they're trying to make another Guthix. You can look more into that on your own time.

Also, go do Nomad's Elegy. That has some stuff on what you asked.


The way those two stories connect is really the best chance of getting some answers to this thread's question, but I also don't think we'll see much of that any time soon. Maybe in Sliske's Endgame, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

But otherwise, I agree with Sepulchre's idea that we're more likely to see "successors". Guthix himself may not be reforged, and especially not in the way that Zaros and Seren could, but between us being the World Guardian, Sliske killing Guthix, Seren considering her own plans against the Elder Gods, seeing whatever the Order of Ascension and Nomad had in mind for their respective plans, and the very existence of the Godless faction, I think we've got enough direct follow-up on Guthix that we don't need to bother bringing him back. Let's focus on the stories spinning out of his death without planning for any kind of resurrection.

30-Jul-2016 06:47:25

Cthris

Cthris

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Maiden China said:
Guthix 1.0 would be able to tell the difference and that is what matters most... to me, at least

if your wife died, you're not going to make a wife 2.0 who acts the same, thinks the same, looks the same and doesnt realize that she died (or thinks you resurrected her)

partially because that would be immensely creepy and mostly because she's not her


To be fair, most people who play runescape don't use that kind of logic, largely because such logic is, by nature, very tricky.

Imagine a small boy building a tower with toy blocks. The blocks are numbered 1-4 and are stacked with 1 being on the bottom with 2 on top of it and so on. Now say this small boy goes to bed and his dad comes home late and knocks over the tower because it's dark. Being the kind father he is he creates a tower exactly how his son's tower was built, with 1 on the bottom, 2 on top of it, and so on. Even though the two towers are identical, it's human nature to believe that the son had a tower and the father had a tower, and as such there are two different towers despite being identical down to the molecular makeup of the tower.

Now imagine a broken watch going to a watch repair shop. In order for the watch fixer to fix the watch he takes it apart completely, and then later puts it all together again. Funny enough, humans recognize that there despite being completely rebuilt its still one watch.

Now both those examples involve dismantling and then rebuilding from the exact same parts.

Now imagine a broomstick. One day the handle/stick part breaks and is replaced with a new handle. A year later the brush part breaks and is completely replaced. At this point there is no longer any part of the original broom, yet we consider it to be the same broom. An even better example would be to imagine a ship that over 20 years has had every plank nail, sail replaced so that none of the original ship remains.

30-Jul-2016 14:25:25

Cthris

Cthris

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Yet we still consider it to be the same ship.


Let's take it further.

Imagine a machine that could replicate a human body and mind completely. If you used it, and it produced an identical copy of you, you would consider the copy a different thing then you.

Now imagine a man uses the machine the same way they use that beam thing in Star Trek. It replicates the mind and body and recreates it somewhere else while also destroying the original body. (A recent episode of doctor who did the same thing) instead of recognizing the new body as a clone we recognize the same person as teleporting.



See how complicated it is.


Now to apply it to Runescape. Take Seren for example. Seren blew herself up in the 3-4th age. Part of her became the dark lord, part of her became an elf, other parts just got spread around.

In the 6th age we get a choice to restore her. Let's say you choose to only partially restore her, not adding the Dark Lord. Most people would consider this 6th age Seren the same being as the 3-4th age Seren and consider the Dark Lord a different being than Seren. Funny enough, both the partially restored Seren and the dark lord would both just be parts of the original Seren. They aren't consistent with thier logic. If they were consistent, people would also claim that Seren is the Dark Lord, yet they don't, they say he is only a part while at the same time believing that 6th age Seren is the same being.

So you see how complex it would be to answer this question.

30-Jul-2016 14:37:02 - Last edited on 30-Jul-2016 14:40:12 by Cthris

Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

Maiden China

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I personally would never attempt to teleport unless I'm already feeling suicidal anyway because I can't ever be sure that other thing really will be me, and I'd appreciate if people I care about don't do it either

that episode with 12. I hated that episode. He's not the doctor, he's a clone of a clone of a clone

same thing with time travel... the people you meet after time traveling will almost certainly be soulless copies of their original selves, and as such, not worth getting to know

put a 'return to normal time' button on your time machine and instead of changing the past, steal things and knowledge from both the future and the past and bring them back to 'your' time


the dark lord is probably just a memory of seren's that somehow became as sentient as an AI can become. If someone forgets a memory, they don't magically turn into a different person. I forget things all the time (and sometimes very important things as I've been in a coma at one point)


I would say the answer is simple because it just 'has to' be
Carn

31-Jul-2016 02:04:47

Cthris

Cthris

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Maiden China said:

the dark lord is probably just a memory of seren's that somehow became as sentient as an AI can become. If someone forgets a memory, they don't magically turn into a different person. I forget things all the time (and sometimes very important things as I've been in a coma at one point)



It's not really that simple.

For one, the Dark Lord is a fair bit more than a memory. Seren invested both her power, and her consciousness into Halund.

If the Dark Lord is a memory, than the blue thing walking around in the 6th age would also have to be a memory because it would be built out of the same thing, power and consciousness of the original Seren, and technically both have even more memories than the original, so one could argue that neither of them are Seren.

The tower example seems to back it up that 6th age blue thing isn't even Seren.

And I wouldn't be so hard on the Doctor lol. The human body replaces like 90% of itself in a 7 -10year time. In a month you replace over 72% of yourself lol. After around 10 years, your entire skeleton is made up of different particles than the ones you started with. You're body is almost completely made of new materials, very similar to the ship/broom example. He's only like 10% less than himself than you would be after a 7-10 year period.

02-Aug-2016 03:34:43 - Last edited on 02-Aug-2016 04:06:55 by Cthris

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