Forums

Inquiry on prayers and Zaros

Quick find code: 341-342-445-65820921

of 2
LazarusSmith
Jul Member 2012

LazarusSmith

Posts: 171Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
So in the 2016 Halloween event it was revealed in Necrovarus' Notes that prayer is power drawn from the dead, not from the gods, and this extends to both normal prayers and curses.

Original message details are unavailable.
Little do they know the power possessed by the dead. When they bury their bones they actually commune with the spirits, drawing upon their power by giving them a proper burial. This power can be channeled by the skilled to gain boons or even - conversely - create curses, which are often taught within a school of thought represented by a god.


And in the ancient hymnal it says the following.

Original message details are unavailable.
To this end Zaros has attuned his temple at Senntisten, so that by praying at his altar in that wonderous place these curses will fill the minds of the followers, and his power be bestowed unto them.


So this raises a question in my mind. Zaros presumably ordered the temple to be built, if we are to believe what the book says, and may have possibly designed it. With that in mind, and yes I do know this was written long before the thought of Necrovarus' Notes even existed, did Zaros know about the source of power the curses drew upon and did not tell people, or did he not know the specific source but was able to develop a channel for them? I'd love to hear a dev's input on how these two fit together to adapt to current lore, but in the meantime what do you guys, the players, think about this?

08-Aug-2016 03:38:17

Aig123
Mar Member 2019

Aig123

Posts: 147Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The Ancient Hymnal also says,
'Gathered here are the chants and curses of the Mahjarrat ancestors'.

I assumed that curses are individually tailored, like creating a customised new spell.
And that the Communion Altar and temple overall, are just focus points of Zarosian power.

Azzanadra is a good example,
his use of what sounds like a 'Shield Dome' spell during Tumekens sacrifice saved a handful of Mahjarrat. Maybe he was carrying some of those beacons we saw in RotM to amplify himself.

08-Aug-2016 05:40:55

iXavior

iXavior

Posts: 390Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
There are many references in-game that suggest prayer comes from a God(s). This is nothing but lies told by Gods to trick the mass into following them. It gives people comfort knowing that their god is constantly watching them, when unknowingly in reality they really aren't. It's fake rhetoric stuff like this for the sole purpose to increase faith, loyalty and security. It's a lie that decieves the most powerfulest of beings. Even Nex believes her prayers come directly from Zaros.

Take the saradomin knight In Hero's Welcome, for example. Remember how he had faith in Saradomin rescuing him and that Saradomin actually cares for him? In reality, Saradomin probably doesn't even know he exists or cares for him. The whole Saradominisr religion is surrounded by propaganda and the false notion that Saradomin is some all-seeing omnipotent being. #stopthelies #CrookedGods
I worship Mah, for she is mah homegirl! The correct adjective for Mah's followers are: Mahomies, Mah-homeboys, or Mah-homegirls.

08-Aug-2016 10:09:12

LazarusSmith
Jul Member 2012

LazarusSmith

Posts: 171Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Aig123 said:
The Ancient Hymnal also says,
'Gathered here are the chants and curses of the Mahjarrat ancestors'.

I assumed that curses are individually tailored, like creating a customised new spell.
And that the Communion Altar and temple overall, are just focus points of Zarosian power.

Azzanadra is a good example,
his use of what sounds like a 'Shield Dome' spell during Tumekens sacrifice saved a handful of Mahjarrat. Maybe he was carrying some of those beacons we saw in RotM to amplify himself.


See I read that, and when I did I was thinking about how that could tie in with this, but I wasn't exactly sure how it did. The customized spell thing seems likely due to the fact that the actual shield dome is a spell used and possibly developed by Baxtorian, not Seren. That being said, when the hymnal says "curses of the mahjarrat ancestors" I assumed that those curses were one of the first things Zaros taught them upon converting them from Icthlarin's employ, along with the ritual, however it's also possible it's something they pick up on freneskae. Necrovarus' Notes specifically mention curses, which also makes me curious as to how Baxtorian manufactured his own prayers. For instance, can more be created on a whim, simply by asking for the right thing, or is like magic and requires a fair bit of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics to create a new prayer? I do believe that the altar was a point for Zaros' power and a way for him to communicate with Azzanadra, his pontifex, and the rest of his church/city from a long distance away, but it just intrigues me as to how these two bits of lore fit together, since it would imply that Zaros either is the source of curses and Necrovarus isn't as smart as we think he is, or he had some insight into the power of the dead and was keeping it a closely guarded secret, as seemingly not even Azzanadra knows of it.

08-Aug-2016 11:33:11

Joakim Smith
Jul Member 2008

Joakim Smith

Posts: 12,382Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
iXavior said:
There are many references in-game that suggest prayer comes from a God(s). This is nothing but lies told by Gods to trick the mass into following them. It gives people comfort knowing that their god is constantly watching them, when unknowingly in reality they really aren't. It's fake rhetoric stuff like this for the sole purpose to increase faith, loyalty and security. It's a lie that decieves the most powerfulest of beings. Even Nex believes her prayers come directly from Zaros.

Take the saradomin knight In Hero's Welcome, for example. Remember how he had faith in Saradomin rescuing him and that Saradomin actually cares for him? In reality, Saradomin probably doesn't even know he exists or cares for him. The whole Saradominisr religion is surrounded by propaganda and the false notion that Saradomin is some all-seeing omnipotent being. #stopthelies #CrookedGods


Or why not, in the face of all the pre-existing evidence, suppose that *Necrovarus* might be biased? We know that the Easterners don't believe in gods, and he's not just any Easterner - He's a *priest* from the Eastern Lands. To find out that the gods actually exist might be a challenge to his faith, and he would naturally try to rationalize it as much as possible.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you[...]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

08-Aug-2016 17:53:56

Hazeel

Hazeel

Posts: 6,701Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I figured Curses were simply drawing from the power of dead Mahjarrat rather than dead humans, making them more powerful.

Joakim Smith said:
Or why not, in the face of all the pre-existing evidence, suppose that *Necrovarus* might be biased? We know that the Easterners don't believe in gods, and he's not just any Easterner - He's a *priest* from the Eastern Lands. To find out that the gods actually exist might be a challenge to his faith, and he would naturally try to rationalize it as much as possible.


This would also require you to ignore the countless J Mod quotes saying that prayer doesn't come from Gods, but the dead.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

09-Aug-2016 00:14:34

Maiden China
Jan Member 2019

Maiden China

Posts: 5,142Rune Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Aig123 said:
Azzanadra is a good example,
his use of what sounds like a 'Shield Dome' spell during Tumekens sacrifice saved a handful of Mahjarrat. Maybe he was carrying some of those beacons we saw in RotM to amplify himself.
azzykins is supposed to be practically a force of nature, yet this moment here is the only epic thing he's ever canonically done... so I really hope he wasn't 'carrying a handful of those beacons' and that he was just observant enough to notice tumeken was a tad suicidal and quick and powerful enough to create a barrier that would protect a few of his kindJoakim Smith said:
Or why not, in the face of all the pre-existing evidence, suppose that *Necrovarus* might be biased? We know that the Easterners don't believe in gods, and he's not just any Easterner - He's a *priest* from the Eastern Lands. To find out that the gods actually exist might be a challenge to his faith, and he would naturally try to rationalize it as much as possible.
in runescape, not believing in gods means you don't agree with their values, their ideals or simply don't think they can realistically accomplish them. It doesn't mean they think the gods don't exist.


My guess is that zaros designed the curses much like the wizard's tower designed their spells... the power doesnt come from them, they just found a nifty way to use it and are willing to share it with people

but having your lowtier follwers think that you're nigh-omniscient probably helps keep the empire a bit safer... the higherups would probably realise exactly where that power comes from
Carn

09-Aug-2016 03:26:54

Joakim Smith
Jul Member 2008

Joakim Smith

Posts: 12,382Opal Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
No, in the case of the East, I think they're literally cut off and don't know about the gods - making it ripe territory for Western missionaries.

However, Hazeel's raised a good point about JMod quotes. I'm not sure there have been "countless" ones, though - I can think of several, most of them being inconclusive (talking of internal debate on the subject, or the idea being raised, or the like), but I have heard of at least one recent one that seemed a bit more solid - and may have been from Mod Osborne, to boot...
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you[...]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

09-Aug-2016 04:35:16

Sepulchre
Feb Gold Premier Club Member 2019

Sepulchre

Posts: 3,496Adamant Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I think of it this way:

Prayers are things we are able to do because of the energies of roaming spirits, given to us by them. This would explain why the most common source of training Prayer is through offering bones to an altar. We aren't actually appeasing just the god by making an offering to them, we're appeasing the spirit by passing them on to the gods.
It is through this that we gain more and more energies to use for our "prayers," allowing us to use them for a longer amount of time. It also fits pretty well into the fact that we need to "level" our Prayer skill. The higher our Prayer level, the more energy we have, and certain (stronger) prayers require more energy to use. If we tried to use a prayer before we had the energy to sustain using it, we'd run out of energy too quickly.
As to why the Ancient Curses are attributed to Zaros.. you notice that in the Ancient Hymnal, there are words chanted upon the activation of each curse. They are written in the Demonic language (Latin), which was the first language Zaros learned. It is possible that it was Zaros who taught the Mahjarrat (and his other followers) the words and how to focus energy to use these curses. It's even fairly possible that through experimentation with some of them, he was the one who discovered how to use energies to gain these effects.
A
World Guardian
must learn to find
Balance
in themselves.
Only then can they
Control
themselves and forge their own
Fate.

09-Aug-2016 05:17:25 - Last edited on 09-Aug-2016 05:18:35 by Sepulchre

Aig123
Mar Member 2019

Aig123

Posts: 147Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Words alone are powerful, in the sense that they cause actual damage.

Remember how Azzanadra spared 'melting our ears off our heads' by not saying Frostenhorn in the Mahjarrat tongue. And lets not forget what saying 'Xau-Tak' did to those poor sailors.

This makes me wonder what Baxtorians chants translate into, had he given us a hymnal.

09-Aug-2016 08:42:08

Quick find code: 341-342-445-65820921Back to Top