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Lore Corner Podcast: Armadyl

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AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Dear Jmods and fellow lorehounds,

Although I have avoided these debates thus far, I want to propose that the characterization of Armadyl as naive in the early ages of Gielinor makes him a less compelling characer than he could be. I understand that there is some romance to the image of the phoenix - I messed up and now I'm back with greater power and wisdom than before - but this only yields a kind of popular underdog. The Jmods have said this much.

But consider this alternative: What if Armadyl was not naive then but faithful to his commitment to reason, justice, freedom, and dialog? Maybe he chose subservience under Saradomin because that seemed to him the most reasonable decision, even if he had doubts about Saradomin's trustworthiness - sometimes we must cooperate those with whom we do not agree or wholly trust. What if the Sixth Age represents for him not an opportunity for a personal comeback but another chance to see whether his commitments, his ideals will work in Gielinor?

Then we see Armadyl as a martyr in the Third Age and potentially a martyr again in the Sixth - perhaps he is even a god willing to suffer the martyrdom of his people again. This kind of intense commitment to a set of principles makes for a provocative character - more provocative, I argue, than a mere comeback kid.

09-Apr-2016 05:32:15

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Relatedly, many of you have probably seen my proposed Story of Ikov - part fan fiction, part RuneLabs suggestion, all intricately related to existing lore. The characterization of Armadyl presented there might usefully split the difference between the two accounts above: there Armadyl is willing to take orders from Tumeken, a much lesser god, out of respect for his wisdom and longer experience in the world of Gielinor; furthermore, according to my account, Armadyl arrives in Gielinor before Saradomin, yet he would be willing to take orders from the more powerful Saradomin upon his arrival. Throughout, Armadyl demonstrates his commitment to dialogue, justice, freedom, and reason - and in the appended songs even proceeds in light of a prophecy of the doom of his Aviantese. Thus, I think this could serve as a useful aid to the lore if the Jmods are at all interested in reading through it.


+ Attila Square

09-Apr-2016 05:32:31 - Last edited on 09-Apr-2016 05:37:54 by AttilaSquare

Hazeel

Hazeel

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The problem is, he isn't naive....at least not in an appealing way in which many imagined an idealist who would try to get every single faction to co-exist. He's naive in the sense that he thinks that he can solve all of his problems and end war by killing all who oppose him. The issue is he's TOO dedicated to his ideals to the point that he's just another warmongering hypocrite.

This is what makes him boring. It's boring because we already have a peace preaching God who believes the ends justify the means. Having a 2nd one is just redundant.
Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

09-Apr-2016 05:39:25

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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There are no definitive reasons for us lorehounds to believe that Armadyl holds that ends justify means or that he believes he can have his way by killing all those who oppose him. These would require further support.

Rather, we might understand his execution of Bandos as following the traditional adage according to which we must settle our differences through reason or the sword. Those who reject reason invite the sword. The Jmods have endorsed this possibility, and there need not be hypocrisy in it.

Armadyl could be interpreted as both intelligent and calculative, as well as attentive to and zealous for his social ideals. If this were the case, Armadyl would become the god with whom I identify most, the one I find most compelling.

09-Apr-2016 05:47:24 - Last edited on 09-Apr-2016 05:49:14 by AttilaSquare

Balustan

Balustan

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Firstly currently there is no reason for him to be naive. That is one problem with naiev. Secondly if naivety is suppose to be his flaw they've already immediately removed it in the 6th age. A naiev person would not gather his armies as a precautionary measure upon arrival to the planet, and before hearing anybody out, as Armadyl did.

Armadyl changed apparently but he doesn't give anybody else the benefit of the doubt that they might have clearly.

Also the more interesting angle was the justice angle but they seem to be ignoring that. He's just a boring character.

Plus the whole he suddenly returned to his home planet just at the right time was really stupid and not believable.

^ Also there is no way to see he's intelligent he's clearly the stupidest God imaginable. He brought his recovered people to a planet where a load of them died for no reason.
Lewis
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Quester
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Scottish

09-Apr-2016 19:11:14

Hazeel

Hazeel

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Recovering race, I think. If they seriously fully recovered on abbinah, then there's no way it can be that bad. Runescape doesn't need a hero...it needs a villain. An all encompassing force of evil that will remain ever-threatening and use chaos to make the peoples of Gielinor tolerate each other, grow strong together, and fight side by side against this evil. I am that villain.

09-Apr-2016 19:15:15

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Balustan, are you claiming that bringing one's people to martyrdom is necessarily stupid?

Perhaps this is what makes Armadyl interesting - he's okay with martyrdom, his own or his people's, even multiple times for the latter. It also separates him from Saradomin, who will not choose martyrdom for himself.

There are real-world parallels for this sort of figure. Take the martyr stories of the three main western religions: they celebrate martyrdom for the sake of God and obedience to his commands (though they don't, on most interpretations, encourage martyrdom of an unreflective or suicidal sort).

09-Apr-2016 19:27:46

Raxxess

Raxxess

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I know people always like to hit on Armadyl as being a "boring" character but the thing he is really popular the only god that beats him in emissary popularity right now is Zaros.

I think him being naive has kind of worked now with him being the "phoenix" and all that. He was one of the youngest gods so it only makes sense that he would be kind of naive.

I think what would make Armadyl more interesting is if they explored more of his relationship with Saradomin and either have him work with Saradomin or a god like Zaros to kind of show even in his new state he still stumbles and either gets taken advantage of or gets caught up in the affairs of others. Which could be his storyline because i do remember a mod quote a while back that Armadyl was intended to be the first god that listened to Zaros (Not worked for allied but actually listened to) Not sure how true that is now though.

And as to the fan*ic there isn't any lore that indicates Armadyl came to Gielinor before Saradomin.
Saradomin Lore clan
- Aegis of Saradomin

09-Apr-2016 20:00:07

AttilaSquare

AttilaSquare

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Raxxess said:
And as to the fan*ic there isn't any lore that indicates Armadyl came to Gielinor before Saradomin.
True - as a fan*ic, it obviously adds to existing lore.

Age is not necessary for one god to be more intelligent than another; take Tuska, for example. Why couldn't Armadyl be very intelligent? In fact, this could add a great twist to Armadyl's ongoing characterization - and make him more interesting in the long run.

Raxxess said:
Armadyl was intended to be the first god that listened to Zaros (Not worked for allied but actually listened to) Not sure how true that is now though.
This is really neat.

09-Apr-2016 20:11:41

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