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Update on the status of 4taa

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Agn75
Dec Gold Premier Club Member 2009

Agn75

Posts: 249Silver Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Kathaar said:
Man all the salt in this thread makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Elitist pigs lose again.


Now you guys can see which part of the community is more toxic lmao

28-Jan-2018 01:59:53

StazáDáBlood
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2017

StazáDáBlood

Posts: 80Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Hi,

does someone noticed if 4taa/c4taa get removed that every content exspecially Telos by 3000%+ enrage need to be backrolled, cuz the silver/gold Warden title will be a lot more difficult to do...(including that the last year premium aura doesn┤t work anymore.)

And i clearly believe this won┤t happen, so the real deal everyone is writing here, is not of anything like Fair Play for anyone. It also includs Jagex.

I like 4taa and c4taa. In my personal opinion it is maybe the best thing in Rs3 at the moment. In fact everyone can do 4taa and c4taa these are truly only 2-4 hotkeys and is possible with every Tier.

Jagex wants to release two abilitys in high/medium content, this can not be correct. They will maybe cost a lot amount of cash cuz (solak drop, lol?) or a lot of time (rifts? lol) This is not fair, for no one.

I excuse myself for the short Message without (deeper) explains. I am from Germany. (You can find my explains an anything in the german forums).

yours faithfully,

Staz. :)

28-Jan-2018 22:56:56

Silence
Jun Gold Premier Club Member 2008

Silence

Posts: 506Steel Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm quite perplexed about this update. Personally, I liked 4taa and c4taa because in a game based on a tick system, having to time your actions and be precise on the whats and whens, to me, is quality. However, as much as I enjoyed it, it's awfully OP, no point in denying that. My only disappointment comes from the fact that Jagex had stated, this past Runefest, that the intention was to introduce the respective melee and ranged variants of 4taa, which would've been very beneficial. It's a shame they've decided to back out on that decision, even though from a business based point of view, I understand the choice.

What I'm afraid of is that this isn't just going to remove 4taa, it's going to imply some problems, that however could be solved with a few changes, as for example:

- please make sure that defensive abilities do not reset the auto attack cooldown. As in if I cast a dragon breath and those 5 game ticks pre-autoattack start, and then I cast reflect, don't make those 5 ticks restart. That would create endless problems starting from Telos (good luck tanking minions and Telos for 3 seconds on high rage while waiting for freeze), to basing AOD or Yakamaru (absolutely 0 damage output when you use defensives, which is silly in my opinion).

- please, do not restrict the magic ability only to dual wield. It's the only equipment-restricted ability that you're introducing, and it has no reason to be. As of now, staves are mainly useful because of 4taa, without it dual wield and staves will already be on par. Don't make staves dead content with this ability, please. Take a DPS contest scenario such as AOD or Vorago. Without 4taa dpsers with staff and dual wield will output averagely the same dpm. Why would you give an advantage to dual wielders? Why prevent people from using autos with a shield, say at Telos, forcing them to dismiss their defensives?

I don't understand, I would genuinely like to know the thought process behind it. Please, be wise.

Thank you.

29-Jan-2018 12:09:25 - Last edited on 29-Jan-2018 12:37:48 by Silence

Samaster
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2009

Samaster

Posts: 1,944Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Spur of the moment idea; what would be the implications of doing all the proposed changes but also bringing an item into the game that reverts the auto attack swing to what is currently is. This could be in the form of a sigil so it costs gp to use 4taa / c4taa (more than just runes). Alongside this, also allow the use of all magic spells without having to equip a magic weapon, that way you could throw off magic spells with each combat style.

As this would now cost around 80k for something like 30 seconds of 4taa/c4taa, it would be used for specific parts of a fight rather than the whole fight.

Edit: with the change to allow magic spells without a weapon, something would need to change with how it'd calculate the damage, maybe using Magic & Strength level plus the level of the spell used?
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01-Feb-2018 09:26:02 - Last edited on 01-Feb-2018 09:36:50 by Samaster

Jaheem
Apr Gold Premier Club Member 2016

Jaheem

Posts: 148Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I'm Saddened to hear that it will go away... its just odd because the people who use revo just got a major boost to help them afk and boss with no effort, but the hardcore pvmers that are really into the bossing and timed mechanics get punished by completely taking it away.. No One was caring that you can use threash/ults with revo.... soo why should the high level pvm community get lashed with a 4taa nerf .... if its the damage increase that your worried about lower the auto attack damage from from 2hs so we can at least get some benefit for going the extra mile. For me personally its just going to make the combat aspect of the game feel dull.
80 Defence and Strong;)

04-Feb-2018 07:22:23

Sophist
Jul Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Sophist

Posts: 162Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
WILL I BE ABLE TO FREEZE GOLEMS AT TELOS WITH ICE BARRAGE WITHOUT HAVING TO WAIT FOREVER AFTER THIS NERF???

NO SUPPORT AT ALL FOR ANYTHING THAT REMOVES THIS FUNCTIONALITY

05-Feb-2018 18:24:54 - Last edited on 05-Feb-2018 18:26:30 by Sophist

NexáisáLife
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2016

NexáisáLife

Posts: 977Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
I think the second change here is poorly thought out. Apparently fixing the auto swing when you switch weapon is too hard, else that's what I think would have been done, being the most obvious fix.

The minimum 5 tick auto swing, even when using a fastest weapon is I think a mistake. An alternative fix could be something like - when a weapon with x auto swing is used for an ability, the next auto within x ticks will be with the damage of the weapon with x auto swing.
Meaning if you tried to 4 tick auto attack by using an ability with a wand then auto with a staff your auto would be the same as a wand auto. Or if you did that, but waited 6 ticks, you could use a staff auto at full damage.
This would allow fastest attacking weapons to function properly whilst destroying any reason to 4 tick with a 6 tick weapon, which is what was unintended.


Sophist said:
WILL I BE ABLE TO FREEZE GOLEMS AT TELOS WITH ICE BARRAGE WITHOUT HAVING TO WAIT FOREVER AFTER THIS NERF???

NO SUPPORT AT ALL FOR ANYTHING THAT REMOVES THIS FUNCTIONALITY

This is a big part of why that is a poor change.

You should still be able to ability>defensive+auto>ability with a wand at least as defensive abilities do not reset auto swing cooldown.

However increasing the attack swing to a minimum of 5 ticks will mean there will be an extra tick wait before you cast ice barrage, even with a wand.

06-Feb-2018 04:12:09

DonáTesto
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2014

DonáTesto

Posts: 72Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
The negative implications of removing 4taa/c4taa clearly outweigh the positive ones. Most of these reasons are already expressed cleary both on reddit and on this very thread. I'll summarize a list of these points that all reinforce eachother:

1. Removing the system while not having a reasonable substitute READY TO GO will make combat very dull and non-engaging for a significant percentage of the PvM community. To simply equip a few new bolts that increase your DPS by several percent is by no means more effort = more reward. I'm not saying C4t is alot of effort once learned but not even the other suggested changes are anywhere close to the effort-lvl of c4t.

2. C4t/4taa are not the underlying causes of elitism. Elitism is a behaviour that certain people tend to adapt due to their nature, it existed before c4t and will exist after. It is simply not fair to blame the current system for the toxicity that exists in the community and moreover, there's little proof of the toxicity being tied to c4t/4taa.

3. "c4t is needed to get into high tier PvM teams" is one of the arguments for removing. This is straight up a lie. I dare anyone to show me ANY forum or discord recruitment thread that states this requirement. I admit that I've seen record-chasing teams asking for it but those teams comprise a very minimal fraction of the community.

4. C4t/4taa is not even close to being mandatory in any PvM scenario whatsoever. By any, I mean ANY. Look at Saddens 4k enrage telos video for example, or one of the many streams of Litt doing well over 2k enrage. there is no C4t there at all, it's pure skill and experience developed from hundreds of hours of dedicated practice. It is however an available option for people who want to work hard for a fair bit of improvement.

5. Lazy people use C4t/4taa as a scapegoat to why they fail certain things, believing that if they knew how to C4t, they would be successful. it's the same with for example a t92 weapon. cont...
The testobooster

19-Feb-2018 21:21:14 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2018 04:48:07 by DonáTesto

DonáTesto
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2014

DonáTesto

Posts: 72Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Continuation of my previous post.

5. .... t92 weapon. people believe that getting a S0S will magically make all their struggles at for example Telos dissapear. When in reality, neither of these DPS boosts are the underlying reason for their failure but rather a laziness when it comes to learning proper DPS rotations and dealing with mechanics (and ofc the unwillingness to invest a little money in failure, before becoming successful). Litt and Saddens performances are proof of what I'm saying.

6. "95% of the people who C4t macro" is a derivative of another common argument we keep hearing, almost always by people who have failed to learn how to C4t themselves. It always surprises me where these numbers are pulled from but the problem is that the people stating these things usually completely lack a point of reference. What I mean by this is that they've never even been close to trying to use a macro software for themselves or understanding how these work for that matter. Cause if they did, they'd know that input generating software (that generate chained inputs) will always have statistical deviations that would be very unfavourable in the case of c4t. But ofc alot of people will have no idea of what I'm talking about since all they do is blame macros for others (who spent countless of hours improving themselves at dummies) being better than them. My point is, it would actually be harder to c4t with a macro than what it is without, hencewhy the majority of people are most likely doing it legit. To anyone interested, I CAN PROVE WHAT IM SAYING HERE (not in game ofc as it's an offence), just pm me.

7. It creates a driving force for the dedicated PvM-ers. Those Pvmers who are actually dedicated and always try to improve themselves rather than finding complains and excuses for why they cannot do something, will find a way to learn the system. They will do this because they are determined to get better and know that it wont be easy to become top tier!
The testobooster

19-Feb-2018 21:40:29 - Last edited on 19-Feb-2018 21:47:05 by DonáTesto

DonáTesto
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2014

DonáTesto

Posts: 72Iron Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
8. Further discussion of point 7. There is a difference between an elitist and someone being elite tier. An elitist is a jerk who has an attitude that clearly needs work on with a therapist. The elite are the people that are the best at what they do. It should by no means be easy or effortless to become a part of the elite. C4t/4t might not be perfect systems, but they are currently a working system within the game that are serving this purpose very well. The reasons they do is because they have relatively long learning curves and requires the user to invest considerable planning-time, effort and money to make it work properly in a PvM scenario. I myself have invested countless of hours mastering the system and I can confirm that once mastered, it simply feels like being on revolution, so the "it's to sweaty"-argument is simply incorrect in the long run and is a further indicator of laziness.

9. A hard strike against the market and a significant amount of peoples main income sources (telos and AOD, in the form of item price drops). No favour whatsoever is done to the community/game by reducing motivation to do the top tier bosses. I am in every significant AOD fc/discord (both small and big teams) which I doubt many Jmods can say btw. This means that I am very closely interacting with a big portion of the high tier PvM-community and I've personally seen the decrase in motivation due to this announcement, and it is REAL. It should therefore be taken very seriously by the officials responsible for sensing our community.

10. Lastly, removing is an unfair and disrespectful move against the people who invested several resources in learning/mastering it. All these points reinforce eachother and a word of warning to Jagex (as an Operations Manager IRL): Removing C4t/4t will not only significantly hurt the game/community, but also your Business!

The Don out!
The testobooster

19-Feb-2018 22:11:31 - Last edited on 20-Feb-2018 04:52:26 by DonáTesto

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