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Ocularis a Moon& other Musings

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Wahisietel
Oct Gold Premier Club Member 2005

Wahisietel

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Hguoh said:
Yet Grondaban writes of those same events when he perceives it to be only Year 1867 of the 4th age. Now, one of them could be wrong in their perception of time, or something funky could be going on with time and space in Daemonheim. And considering the temporally displaced image and note mentioned above, I favor the latter interpretation. I think that certain portals in the warped floors of Daemonheim can occasionally displace beings in time as well as place to varying and often unpredictable degrees, or they alter the local flow of time such that an individual might arrive somewhere prior to when they left.

Compared to elsewhere in Daemonheim, the location we visit in DAT seems fairly stable and would be less likely to be affected by temporal and spatial variations.


The problem with this theory is that literally every other character is unaffected by any time stuff. We've had a ton of characters waltz down to the bottom of Daemoheim (Bilrach, Moia, Us, the Dishonour amongst Thieves crew) and stay there for extended periods of time without their perception changing. Chronicles of Bilrach and the Sagas even establishes that the humans had regular contact with the surface, and learnt of the discovery of Runecrafting and the start of the Fifth Age immediately. So even if their perception of time passing was different, they would have known the actual date anyway.

The only thing suggesting any time-related stuff in Daemonheim is a portal being able to show visions of the past and provide an extra-dimensional scrap of paper.

The fact it doesn't make sense doesn't even matter though. That "fan theory" involving Daemonheim time dilation was by the mod that wrote this lorebook. It's canon. Because Daemonheim's story hadn't been made confusing enough and retconned enough already.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

10-Jan-2018 16:46:10

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Who says they weren't affected? The two cases when we actually have characters keep track of an extended period of time, the times they list disagree. There's no way of telling the flow of time outside in Daemonheim. No regular cycle of the sun to count the days into years, and an ever looming madness to further jumble one's perception of time.

In the M. and Thok letter 1, it's established that the Fremennik Seers placed a spell upon the entrance to Daemonheim that made anything but the most basic clothing that crosses it too heavy for even Thok to carry far. In the Letter from Brundt, it is established that only after Thok and Marmaros returned was the call put out to bring adventurers to Daemonheim.

Yet in several of the endings of the Vengeance Saga, the surviving Forgotten Warrior manages to leave Daemonheim with her gear, apparently experiencing no such effect of the spell. This would indicate that she left before the spell was put up. The fact that she faced an adventuring party within Daemonheim, however, would indicate that they entered after the spell was put in place.

There's also a distinct difference between Lexicus and Astea's noting of 5 years passing in Daemonheim, with Lexicus, who was stationed far deeper, noting that he wouldn't even believe they'd passed if not for a calendar he or Astea (on her visits to him) had marked the days off of. Considering Lex could only know the days passing from the words of those above, whose to say that the flow of time in his area wasn't flowing slower relative to that of the surface. Granted, it could just be the standard turn of phrase (has it really been a year? I feel like I saw you only yesterday), but that's less fun to think about.

And, of course, there's Gorndaban's odd account in the latest lore book. Such as noting Bilrach bringing the Ritual Stone back from Freneskae and bringing the Chelon-Mah back (both in the wrong time-frame), but making no note of Moia's visit between these events.

11-Jan-2018 00:38:28

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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I'd imagine that any alteration to the flow of time within Daemonheim would be generally of a fairly small scale under normal circumstances. Very rarely you might get a more significant jump forward or back like that noted in the Portal Notes journal. As depicted, such occasions seem to be short lived.

This has the benefit of allowing some confusing time bending shenanigans, while making an excuse for why it is unusable for larger plot points (if you can't predict it and it doesn't last long enough for you to search it out (let alone prep a force to cross it), then a character can't really use it to deliberately change or alter past events.

11-Jan-2018 00:44:04

Wahisietel
Oct Gold Premier Club Member 2005

Wahisietel

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Hguoh said:

In the M. and Thok letter 1, it's established that the Fremennik Seers placed a spell upon the entrance to Daemonheim that made anything but the most basic clothing that crosses it too heavy for even Thok to carry far. In the Letter from Brundt, it is established that only after Thok and Marmaros returned was the call put out to bring adventurers to Daemonheim.

Yet in several of the endings of the Vengeance Saga, the surviving Forgotten Warrior manages to leave Daemonheim with her gear, apparently experiencing no such effect of the spell. This would indicate that she left before the spell was put up. The fact that she faced an adventuring party within Daemonheim, however, would indicate that they entered after the spell was put in place.


Considering how often Jagex forget about The Taint (Salt in the Wound, Dishonour amongst Thieves, ect), it's probably just a mistake. We know there's nothing physically stopping things being brought out of Daemonheim anyway (thanks to Smuggler), the Fremennik just usually don't let it.

Hguoh said:
There's also a distinct difference between Lexicus and Astea's noting of 5 years passing in Daemonheim, with Lexicus, who was stationed far deeper, noting that he wouldn't even believe they'd passed if not for a calendar he or Astea (on her visits to him) had marked the days off of. Considering Lex could only know the days passing from the words of those above, whose to say that the flow of time in his area wasn't flowing slower relative to that of the surface. Granted, it could just be the standard turn of phrase (has it really been a year? I feel like I saw you only yesterday), but that's less fun to think about.


It's just a standard turn of phrase.
You never were our brightest star, Khazard. 'Vermin slaughtered like lambs'? What does that even mean?

11-Jan-2018 15:40:58 - Last edited on 11-Jan-2018 15:42:43 by Wahisietel

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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The spell is specifically on the entrance. If you enter or exit by other means, the spell would not affect your items. As such when we enter by alternative entrances (Kerapacís elevator or blasting our way in in Salt in the Wound) or do not use an entrance (teleporting in during and after DAT), the spell is given no opportunity to affect our things.

And I know it could just be a turn of phrase when Lexicus says he couldnít believe the years passed so quickly. Thatís just less fun to think about than the alternative. Especially if we are to believe time warping occurs in Daemonheim.

11-Jan-2018 16:04:19

Kittyphantom
Jul Member 2008

Kittyphantom

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Hguoh said:
The spell is specifically on the entrance. If you enter or exit by other means, the spell would not affect your items. As such when we enter by alternative entrances (Kerapacís elevator or blasting our way in in Salt in the Wound) or do not use an entrance (teleporting in during and after DAT), the spell is given no opportunity to affect our things.

And I know it could just be a turn of phrase when Lexicus says he couldnít believe the years passed so quickly. Thatís just less fun to think about than the alternative. Especially if we are to believe time warping occurs in Daemonheim.


But the Fremennik cast that spell on the entrance *because* of "the Taint". Entering by other means does let you subvert the Fremennik spell, but the items you take in should be tainted.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you[...]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

30-Jan-2018 23:22:58

Hguoh
Mar Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Hguoh

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Kittyphantom said:
But the Fremennik cast that spell on the entrance *because* of "the Taint". Entering by other means does let you subvert the Fremennik spell, but the items you take in should be tainted.


'The Taint,' was first witnessed in year 46 of the 5th age, and we know that the Dungeon's denizens maintained trade with the surface at least through to year 168 of the 5th age. If 'the Taint' truly was able to contaminate items and spread from them, the Fremennik arrived many years too late to stop its spread (plus, we are given no lore reason why our skivvies wouldn't be 'Tainted' like any other item, so the Fremmy's spell makes no sense as an attempt to stop the 'Taint').

Beyond that, there's fair reason to believe that the 'Tainting' of matter requires a certain amount of exposure to the Daemonheim Rift's energies (slow at the surface, and faster the deeper you go and needs a certain amount of a given material to be present to 'Taint' it (thin, basic clothes can't be affected).

Also after going over the Dungeoneering Tutor's dialogue on the matter, it seems like either a retroactive association of the barrier with the 'Taint' on his part, or more of a misplaced concern with the potential effects of introducing alien species and elements to Gielinor's ecosystem (think invasive species taken to 11 or self assembling toxic molecules).

31-Jan-2018 00:43:06

Gamez†X
Sep Gold Premier Club Member 2014

Gamez†X

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Huh i'm surprised i didnt read this book earlier, glad i finally came across it. Its pretty interesting, i actually came up with the exact same idea of the whole world being a giant stalker with the whole race being a hive mind for its eyes across the universe in a dream when i was pondering this (just now is the first time i've actually read this info). But there is some parts of this that are pretty confusing when compared to other parts of the lore we've been given

Let me just see if i can confirm everything we now know about ocularis. Its not a planet itself but is actually a cracked rocky moon from the lower worlds? At some point a stalker grew in its center and basically grew all over the moon until it became the world, so the whole world is just 1 moon sized creature? It then said it came near infernus where it decided to make the seekers to spread its eyes across the universe. Am i getting this right so far?

My questions:

1. They said this was a moon from the lower worlds (the ancient element planets) but we know from the universe map at runefest its labelled as the body rune planet, which would put it some way up the bik path and not in the lower worlds. Did it move from the lower plane to the location of the body plane to become its world?

2. It said it came close to infernus, was it always infernus's moon or just came and went? Is this what it meant by "originally from the lower worlds" or was it the moon of a different lower planet? If so which one?

3. If it did move is it still moving, where is it now? Is it still around infernus or is it back in the body plane location?

4. If it can move around does that mean the body plane has no set planet thats always there?

5. They keep speaking that planes are still kinda bubble dimensions, but now we have ocularis and tuska being able to just travel physically between worlds. Does this mean its more like the space model afterall?

6. If the moon is just its brain, is it now planet sized?

01-Feb-2018 21:33:36

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