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Chicky Hines
Feb Member 2016

Chicky Hines

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Even for a quest as difficult as Sliske's Endgame, 11% of the overall playerbase (unless this includes bots and throwaway alts for time-gated events like the Raffle) seems astronomically low. Are you sure that value isn't referring to those who've replayed Endgame? As far as I'm aware, the only "benefit" to replaying it is a cosmetic that neither looks nor operates remotely like Sliske and a measly XP lamp. Lol. Funny thing is, if we actually got a Sliske-themed set/walk/teleport out of it, I'd replay Endgame in a heartbeat. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."

07-Oct-2018 06:12:08 - Last edited on 07-Oct-2018 06:15:00 by Chicky Hines

Uncle Pob

Uncle Pob

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Chicky Hines said:
Even for a quest as difficult as Sliske's Endgame, 11% of the overall playerbase (unless this includes bots and throwaway alts for time-gated events like the Raffle) seems astronomically low.

The 11% figure was stated during the RuneFest Winter Reveals stream, though it was simply used to support the idea that lots of quest requirements are making quests an "elites club" ie. they can't justify making such expensive one-off content if the vast majority of the players (many of whom might *want* to play it) don't meet those requirements and never will.

It wasn't a figure that was broken down and explained; they didn't explain how the figure was reached. When you factor in lots of other things (alt accounts for example, and players who refuse to ever do any quest unless it's locking up content they actually need like Prif), or some individual quest requirements for Sliske's Endgame being especially hated to the point where players will dread them so much they will put them off indefinately, that low figure really isn't too surprising.

Some quests are just that bad or notorious: when you have quests so universally hated as One Small Favor and Mournings End Part 2, a budding quester could easily get derailed from doing quests completely so he never reaches the point where Sliske's Endgame is unlocked.

07-Oct-2018 06:45:37

UrekMazino
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2015

UrekMazino

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Uncle Pob said:
The 11% figure was stated during the RuneFest Winter Reveals stream, though it was simply used to support the idea that lots of quest requirements are making quests an "elites club" ie. they can't justify making such expensive one-off content if the vast majority of the players (many of whom might *want* to play it) don't meet those requirements and never will.

It wasn't a figure that was broken down and explained; they didn't explain how the figure was reached. When you factor in lots of other things (alt accounts for example, and players who refuse to ever do any quest unless it's locking up content they actually need like Prif), or some individual quest requirements for Sliske's Endgame being especially hated to the point where players will dread them so much they will put them off indefinately, that low figure really isn't too surprising.

If that's the case, the number is almost meaningless then.
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07-Oct-2018 07:40:06

Chicky Hines
Feb Member 2016

Chicky Hines

Posts: 759Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Uncle Pob said:
they can't justify making such expensive one-off content if the vast majority of the players (many of whom might *want* to play it) don't meet those requirements and never will.

If they never meet those requirements, that's entirely on them. It's not the devs' fault that some -- I refuse to believe that it's most; at least, not a staggering 89% -- people are too lazy or zombie-like to care about something as significant as lore. As such, they shouldn't take this as justification to prioritize mindless repetitive actions that everyone can "enjoy" over story. If only to impede bots, who, of course, don't care about the story.

That said, taking a page out of OS' book may help. Barrows gloves, which are untradeable BiS gear, are locked behind a long series of quests and every serious PvPer/PvMer makes it their long-term goal to unlock them... even if they're one of those people who hate questing. If RS3's quests similarly offered *untradeable* (<- key word) BiS gear instead of admittedly ludicrous sums of XP, even people who otherwise don't quest would probably start doing them. Sure, they might not be doing them for the "right" reasons, but hey -- life isn't perfect.

-EDIT- Obviously weapons and "main" armor pieces like chests/legs are a nonstarter because they'd devalue high-end gear, but the stuff you can't augment could be worth looking into. Specifically, the helmet, gloves, boots, maybe even a necklace. I'm reluctant to say ring because very few people would be willing to swap out LotD (or RoD/ASR, which already are more or less BiS). Maybe even a sigil to make them great "again," idk.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."

07-Oct-2018 08:44:00 - Last edited on 07-Oct-2018 09:00:33 by Chicky Hines

Rikornak
Oct Gold Premier Club Member 2013

Rikornak

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It is dangerous to keep players who aren't interested in doing quests (unless it has some kind of must-have reward, which endgame certainly hasn't), players who won't ever be able to do that quest (i.e. pures or pure-blooded f2ps) or players that simply are way too low (so they would potentially be interested in completing it, but not be able to do the thing, that is practically the final quest currently within the next 6 months) in such a kind of statistic.

Except for the latter group they are entirely worthless in such a statistic, as the former will likely not be interested in the followed up quest anyway (unless it has some relevant reward, which would cause them to complete endgame) and the second group will not be able to do it anyway (as they still will lack requirements they'll never be able to fulfill - unless it has no requirements at all or it is a no combat quest, which isn't even using combat skills for utility purposes - which also would be f2p then of course).

From a game mechanical perspective it's okay, when the vast majority of rewards is locked beyond the optional requirements, from story telling - well... something isn't right when the game has to tell you to complete several grand master quests before doing a novice one.

Otherwise I guess Endgame wasn't a good quest (game mechanic, story was okay) - and it was probably one of the worst possible choices to offer a replay option - especially when taking it to evaluate interest in other quest replays. That also could contribute to low completion rates after all.
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07-Oct-2018 08:52:12 - Last edited on 07-Oct-2018 09:14:35 by Rikornak

Nex is Life
Nov Gold Premier Club Member 2016

Nex is Life

Posts: 1,837Mithril Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Seems very low, considering how many people are maxed/how broken exp rates are nowadays. If you're maxed and don't have 390+ QPs you're a failure.

A few hundred people did it again when they let you do that, I think the number was 300 several months after (re)release. Too bad they ruined the only good reward which was the unique neck effect of the cosmetic armour.
You'll get it when you deserve it.

07-Oct-2018 12:22:17

Queen Farli
Aug Gold Premier Club Member 2018

Queen Farli

Posts: 27Bronze Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
It could be a lot of people started but never finished. I keep going back to it and still aren't done. The maze is horrifically tedious and almost impossible without a guide (following the guide takes almost 3 HOURS to complete....) and the boss fight is hard enough to not be fun. I'm level 135 and I hate bossing and love quests. I hate how interesting lore is locked behind boss fights - the bossers already do bosses. There is no need to make extra ones for the people who DON'T boss!!

Why isn't there an easy mode for people who don't like bossing - maybe unlocked after dying 3 times or something. Potentially with lower rewards, full rewards unlocked if played on not-easy in the replay. I'd miss rewards if it made a quest achievable in a heart beat.

I'd redo it in a heartbeat for no rewards if the boss set wasn't so awful and the maze so tedious. It is the worst quest to be the decider of whether replayability is acceptable because for the people who would replay for fun rather than rewards , it just isn't worth it. I like quests and am sad I can't keep doing them and can't be bothered to grind up a new character just to redo some.

09-Oct-2018 20:01:31

Chicky Hines
Feb Member 2016

Chicky Hines

Posts: 759Gold Posts by user Forum Profile RuneMetrics Profile
Queen Farli said:
It could be a lot of people started but never finished. I keep going back to it and still aren't done. The maze is horrifically tedious and almost impossible without a guide (following the guide takes almost 3 HOURS to complete....) and the boss fight is hard enough to not be fun. I'm level 135 and I hate bossing and love quests. I hate how interesting lore is locked behind boss fights - the bossers already do bosses. There is no need to make extra ones for the people who DON'T boss!!

That doesn't even make sense... Difficulty determines fun. A "fight" that is a total cakewalk isn't fun, by any means. Conversely, a fight that makes you think, makes you sweat is fun (if only because of the sense of accomplishment when you finally win).

And speaking of accomplishment, that is why some bosses are relatively hard. Elvarg, who served as the de facto "boss" in F2P for over a decade, was accordingly difficult to defeat with F2P gear. At least back in the day. Similarly, P2P has extremely powerful bosses like Drakan, Rabid Jack, Nomad, and Sliske, whose lore has been built up for a very long time. Making them pushovers just because a tiny portion of the community refuses to learn something as integral as PvM would be doing them -- and most of the players -- a huge disservice.

People who hate PvP with a passion are the same way. If you don't like it, don't do it; just don't try to ruin others' fun.

Queen Farli said:
Why isn't there an easy mode for people who don't like bossing - maybe unlocked after dying 3 times or something. Potentially with lower rewards, full rewards unlocked if played on not-easy in the replay. I'd miss rewards if it made a quest achievable in a heart beat.

There is -- it's called the "Armor of Trials." :/
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."

09-Oct-2018 21:17:08

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